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1st January 2018, 10:37 PM | #1361 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Anyone holding bitcoin right now will soon understand that putting profits in the tin is essential.
Bitcoin will bounce from 5000, offering one last chance to bank profits. |
1st January 2018, 10:46 PM | #1362 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No; but he could make bets on it, and increase the odds in his favour by designing the enterprise to be attractive to a targeted category of victims: millions of libertarians are still being sucked in by this Ponzi scheme that masquerades as a better alternative to 'fiat' currency". I think that's what's being argued. If that is what happened it is poetic justice.
The main force we have to protect us from swindlers and assailants is the government, with its repressive and regulatory legal and enforcement powers. In a democracy deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Libertarians see this as tyranny, and refuse to offer their consent. Not only, therefore, can they not resist swindles designed to negate and usurp the social functions of government - they positively embrace them. They have for example elected an "anti-President" in the USA. Is bitcoin a scam intentionally conceived, and cleverly designed, to exploit this ideological prejudice? |
2nd January 2018, 04:47 AM | #1363 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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2nd January 2018, 05:01 AM | #1364 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Good. So what's your reasoning. Is this it?
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All you have to do to refute that, is to show the value added, or revenue generated, by Bitcoin. As you have been invited to do: tell us what its price to earnings ratio is, for example. That would settle the matter. |
2nd January 2018, 07:38 AM | #1365 |
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You should have paid attention the last time I explained why they are totally different.
Give it up! Bitcoin is nothing more than buying something at one price and selling it at another. It has more similarity to stamp collecting than any of the nefarious schemes that you want to shoehorn bitcoin into. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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2nd January 2018, 09:05 AM | #1366 |
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Bitcoin now the biggest bubble ever. RTTV
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Max Keiser interviewed Michael Pento. See episode 1170. Max has been pushing Bitcoin for years, and still is. Pento was very skeptical. While I am pretty much in agreement with Max on a number of issues, Bitcoin is one I am not. |
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2nd January 2018, 09:23 AM | #1367 |
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I suppose there could be a speculative bubble in the price of old or rare stamps. If Bitcoin is as you say, then you are admitting that it is a bubble.
Because current stamps used to cover postage charges don't behave like bitcoin. Things providing a service don't shoot up in price to that degree; because the extent of the service gives them an intrinsic measurable value, which Bitcoin doesn't have. Pure speculation. "Buying at one price and selling at another" can create a bubble, if it gets out of hand and becomes a mania unrelated to the object's value, assuming that it has a value in the first place. |
2nd January 2018, 09:24 AM | #1368 |
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What stops hackers from hacking exchanges to steal crypto-currency? Including bitcoin?
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2nd January 2018, 09:53 AM | #1369 |
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So what? I have always said that bitcoin is in a bubble and that it has gone through many bubbles in its lifetime. Some were minor and some were spectacular. It is your assertion that bitcoin will go through a final bubble then have no lasting value that is without merit.
Collecting cancelled stamps that have no "intrinsic value" (whatever that means) and have practical use whatsoever is an exact analogy. Many stamp buyers are only in it for the money (ie speculators). There seems to be no end in sight to the number of "greater fools" who are willing to buy rare and expensive stamps. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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2nd January 2018, 09:55 AM | #1370 |
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2nd January 2018, 10:12 AM | #1371 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It does have a meaning, believe me.
Quote:
Then the price of penny blacks crashed and brought the economy down with it. Not likely. But it is the same thing, one on a socially and economically insignificant scale, the other not. Bitcoin, like 1840 penny stamps, has no intrinsic or use value giving it any particular price at all. Also unlike old cancelled stamps, Bitcoin has been made the darling of the extreme libertarian right, who support it on ideological grounds. Nobody treats stamps like that, AFAIK. |
2nd January 2018, 11:42 AM | #1372 |
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2nd January 2018, 12:09 PM | #1373 |
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3rd January 2018, 02:55 AM | #1374 |
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Btc still trading @ 14 —15 k
Dead cat bounce 2 continues? |
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3rd January 2018, 03:33 AM | #1375 |
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3rd January 2018, 03:49 AM | #1376 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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3rd January 2018, 04:01 AM | #1377 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Freely traded markets go up for a while then down for a while.
It is pleasing to note bitcoin is a slave to TA. The reason this time it's different is straightforward, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AzEY6ZqkuE |
3rd January 2018, 04:03 AM | #1378 |
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I am researching some of the issues about currency, and taking one issue at a time.
Here is a false claim:
Quote:
When a person buys a house and takes out a loan from the bank, the debt is backed by a physical asset. The house. The bank can ask the Reserve Bank for cash and use the debt/asset. The dollar cash is backed by an asset. When a bitcoin is created, electricity is used which creates nothing but a number. That is not "work". It is the same as burning down a tree and getting nothing but smoke and carbon dioxide as proof or work. |
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3rd January 2018, 04:15 AM | #1379 |
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Last small bounce peaked at $15,803, now around $14,750.
It's holding up quite well, rising from a level of around $13,500, which it held for a day or two. Is this the credit card-funded last gasp, or a do or die holdout by libertarian anarchocapitalists? Or is there a higher peak beyond $20,000 to be attained? Perhaps, but I rule out the fantasy levels of $100,000. |
3rd January 2018, 08:00 AM | #1380 |
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This whole crypto-currency craze is remarkable. I am seeing articles on how to develop your own currency.
I just checked out Ripple. They decided that they would start with 100 billion coins and kept 20 billions coins for themselves "as a fee". At the beginning of 2017 the Wow. Crazy. People taking REAL money and buying this and that hoping to get rich. It sure is entertaining to watch it. |
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3rd January 2018, 09:45 AM | #1381 |
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The claim is not entirely false. It is true that debts must be backed by an asset but it does not have to be a totally physical asset. It could be backed up by somebody else's debt or even just the word of the borrower (think: credit cards).
Fiat currency is ultimately government debt backed up by the liabilities of tax payers. OTOH crypto currencies are not backed up by anything (except themselves) because they are not debt instruments. They are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them. They operate as "currencies" in a similar fashion to the way gold and other precious metals used to be currency. The energy used to create crypto currencies is a red herring since this energy is irrelevant to the "value" of a crypto currency. What I find astounding is the apparently hard core belief the one day all the bitcoin holders will decide that bitcoin is worthless and dump them. It is going to take a lot more than a spontaneous change in public belief about bitcoin to get it off this never ending roller coaster. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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3rd January 2018, 09:48 AM | #1382 |
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That reminds me, I've been meaning to look into other cryptocurrencies for a while. Back when Bitcoin was peaking for the first time, I made a small list of requirements I'd need to imagine people actually using a currency instead of storing them in their digital socks. Does anyone know of coins that meet them today?
My list: No "gold rush" - It should not heavily reward the people who first start mining it, and sure as hell shouldn't start with enriching the creators with huge theoretical sums. That's begging for a pump and dump scam. Ideally it'd start with a high difficulty, as if there were already a lot of coins and everyone was already just mining the interest. The idea would be to encourage people to join the mining swarm at any time without them "missing out." Inflationary - it needs to grow about 10-20% per year. More coins entering with time encourages investment and discourages hoarding. Scalable - Bitcoin's model is that every transaction has to be confirmed by everyone. Which is inherently unscalable. Imagine half the world's economy using it. No way would that be feasible. No giant block chain, no "self-limiting" transaction fee. I know there's some coins that do this but I don't know the details. GPU-focused - to discourage ASIC farming. I know there's coins that do this already. |
3rd January 2018, 10:26 AM | #1383 |
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3rd January 2018, 11:04 AM | #1384 |
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3rd January 2018, 11:31 AM | #1385 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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3rd January 2018, 10:56 PM | #1386 |
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It's not true that debts have to be "backed" by an asset. see unsecured versus secured loans.
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3rd January 2018, 11:01 PM | #1387 |
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While I suppose you could make the mining of new coins very difficult from the beginning, what you can't do is control the amount of fiat money that anyone could potentially bid on such a coin. If the coin had a great deal of utility and was popular, people would front run it in an attempt to profit and there isn't really anything you can do about it.
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3rd January 2018, 11:04 PM | #1388 |
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I never said that fiat money is valueless. I said it has no intrinsic value, and that its extrinsic value is based on the petrodollar scam, and the US Military. The value of people who earn and save fiat money is stolen quickly over time, as it is merely another form of regressive taxation (at best) or theft (at worst).
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4th January 2018, 01:22 AM | #1389 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Why do you call this regressive? Here is s definition
Definition of 'Regressive Tax'. Under this system of taxation, the tax rate diminishes as the taxable amount increases. In other words, there is an inverse relationship between the tax rate and taxable income.The taxable income here is the sum of currency held at any time by a possessor. The tax rate is the same per pound or dollar for each payer, so that a person with a thousand units pays exactly ten times as much as a person with a hundred units. Both taxpayers pay any the same percentage rate on each unit, regardless of the total they are holding. That doesn't look regressive to me. Here are related definitions A regressive taxWP is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases ... if the activity being taxed is more likely to be carried out by the poor and less likely to be carried out by the rich, the tax may be considered regressive.A flat rate tax on the holders of currency doesn't fulfil these conditions. Holding money is an activity more likely to be carried out by the rich, as the poor tend to expend it on necessaries like food, clothing and shelter as and when they obtain it, and have no surplus to retain as a money hoard. |
4th January 2018, 01:55 AM | #1390 |
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I would have thought that "just the word of the borrower" covered that.
I was trying to avoid the complication of central banks and bonds and keep to the bottom line. When you issue a note you are normally promising to redeem it for something of value. In the case of government, the "thing of value" is your tax liability. The energy required to mine bitcoins depends on the value of bitcoin - not the other way around. Yes, "proof of work" is your guarantee that the block (in the blockchain) that has your transaction is not bogus. Like I said, bitcoin holders are not going to spontaneously lose confidence in bitcoin absent some extraordinary event such as you describe. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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4th January 2018, 02:20 AM | #1391 |
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One of the inflationary mechanisms that causes bubbles to swell is that loans to enable speculation may be covered by the value of the speculated object. They are self financing, during the boom phase. In 1929 lenders lent on the security of the price of the shares to be purchased by the borrower.
A borrower might put down $10, borrow $100, thus multiplying his or her available funds tenfold. No problem on condition that prices keep going up; her or his collateral is secure. But if they stop going up ownership becomes a burden as there is current interest on the loan, and no dividend from the asset to offset it. And if the price falls the creditor wants more money to restore the collateral, and sends out a "margin call". If this is not heeded, the speculator is "sold out". That reduces prices even more and so a positive feedback cycle is established, with the explosive results normal for these processes. As described by JK Galbraith Prices as they fell ... kept crossing a large volume of stop-loss orders — orders calling for sales whenever a specified price was reached. Brokers had placed many of these orders for their own protection on the securities of customers who had not responded to calls for additional margin. Each of these stop-loss orders tripped more securities into the market and drove prices down farther. Each spasm of liquidation thus insured that another would follow. |
4th January 2018, 02:49 AM | #1392 |
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You can follow John mcAffee on Twitter.
He's essentially a paid promotor of cryptos and will recommend new ones. Mind you: he's probably just getting money from people to pump and dump currencies, but I've read that everything he promotes shoots up in the short term. It's like riding pump-and-dumps within a bubble. Extremely risky, but if you take profits in much-maligned dollars occasionally, it may make you money. Reddit has a very active subforum that is very informative. it is also an information bubble filled with true believers. make sure to consume sceptical voices in addition or you will essentially be in a cult. On youtube I've found two people who are invested in cryptos, competent, yet not wide-eyed idealists: Crypto Investor Trader of futures That last one has recently been making more videos warning people that they shouldn't take out a second mortgage and invest it in Bitcoin. Apparently, he's very spooked by how blindly people believe that this will go to the moon and are literally betting the house. Personally, I have not invested in cryptos yet. I am interested in ICO's for cool technical products with proven user cases (not just a whitepaper, my 12-year-old daughter can write a whitepaper). But I'm unsure about how they work, so I'm still looking into it. |
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4th January 2018, 05:48 AM | #1393 |
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Just heard an hour ago of a man who has taken out a mortgage on his house to buy bitcoin. He made a lot of money initially and is now convinced he can make more. The downturn of the second DCB seems to have started. The governments should step in. They should tell people how the schemes work, and the risk they are taking. But it is probably too late for many people. |
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4th January 2018, 06:31 AM | #1394 |
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Look, I have no problem with people investing in Bitcoin if they can afford to lose money. (same with all investments really).
Some things concern me: -People with no idea of markets or tech going in with a minimum of understanding. -People who are absolute believers in the concept. -The echo chambers talking about the subject where critical voices are shouted down. -The narrative that "they" want to stop crypto and will lie about it, causing people to disregard warnings from finance, government. -The idea that some technology superior to blockchain could spring up and replace it quite easily. I like the idea of investing in and funding a disruptive technology, but people are way too convinced that 'this is it'. |
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4th January 2018, 06:36 AM | #1395 |
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Last night I had a poker game with a few friends. One of them announced he had put 300,000 yen into Bitcoin and Ripple.
Actually, that is not as much money as it may sound, but more than a month's salary for him. I think he is genuinely trying to get rich quick as he will be reaching retirement age in about ten years. The thing is he is not very savvy at things like this and decided to invest because a mutual friend of ours who likes speculating and gambling had done the same. He said he had sent money to "a guy" who could buy cryptocurrencies and then bought them a few days later ("after the price had risen!"). Since then the price has fallen, and he isn't able to cash out, but apparently can only sell in other cryptocurrencies. Now, on the one hand, what he hopes for is the price goes up again and ends up more than it was when he went in. In that case he should probably sell and consider himself lucky. Or he can cut his losses and sell now, hoping not to lose too much (although it sounds dodgy that he is unable to take out his cash immediately. Why not? He doesn't seem to know.) Of course, maybe he won't accept anything less than a stratospheric rise, when the other, likelier, alternative to that, is a catastrophic decline. And if he is doing it, there will be many other people doing it too. |
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4th January 2018, 07:38 AM | #1396 |
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One need look no further than the very terms the enthusiasts use to find the real source of "value" of this currency.
When someone wants to quantify their holdings, some other denominated currency is referred to. That is, after all, the entire purpose of the exercise. This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be |
4th January 2018, 08:50 AM | #1397 |
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4th January 2018, 10:27 AM | #1398 |
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4th January 2018, 11:08 AM | #1399 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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4th January 2018, 11:18 AM | #1400 |
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