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Old 10th January 2018, 06:29 PM   #41
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And could someone explain what the big issue is meant to be, an initial description was changed to reflect new information? I really don't see anything strange or unusual in that, as the police gathered more information they updated the description.

Obviously there is some subtext/meta point I'm missing but for the life of me I don't know what it is.
Me, I don't have a problem with changing a description based on further information. I do, however, fundamentally question why any "description" would be released if it consists entirely of race and sex. That's not a description and can serve only to create false positives.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Me, I don't have a problem with changing a description based on further information. I do, however, fundamentally question why any "description" would be released if it consists entirely of race and sex. That's not a description and can serve only to create false positives.
Reminds me of a video I saw where a man in NYC describes the "stop and frisk" encounters he went through. Police invariably said he "fit the description" of a suspect. The description was "black male, wearing white t-shirt and jeans". The man pointed out that this was every other guy walking around outside.

In any case, unless the police went berserk and began attacking/harrassing black guys en masse, this seems reasonable to me. You work with the best info you have, and update as more info becomes available.
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Old 11th January 2018, 12:37 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And could someone explain what the big issue is meant to be, an initial description was changed to reflect new information? I really don't see anything strange or unusual in that, as the police gathered more information they updated the description.

Obviously there is some subtext/meta point I'm missing but for the life of me I don't know what it is.
That was my take on it. It was written by Charles Mudede, a long-time gadfly fixture in the area. Hard to take it as real journalism.

Though he did co-write Zoo, a documentary about the Mr. Hands/horse sex guy, for which I'll give him some credit.
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Old 11th January 2018, 12:59 AM   #44
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Species is clearly more important than race in this instance. The guy is practically a giraffe.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Article in OP
The suspect, who appeared in court today, was not seen by the public because his judge would not "show his face in court." Why? Because "identity is an issue."
And the website publishes his mugshot. It fascinates me that articles such as that one are perfectly legal in the States. In the UK, it would've got the editor up to two years in jail and the website an unlimited fine for contempt of court.
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:16 AM   #46
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The trailer home where the robbery occurred is a "trap house" where heroin is sold. The object of the robbery was to get drugs and cash. There are four residents in the home and also two children living in squalor. The parents are going to face consequences.

The robber who died (Henry Carden) was wearing body armor. He got into a shootout with the cop. He was hit with a bullet and then shot himself in the head as suicide. They say he would have died anyway from the police bullet. Carden was able to hit the body-armored cop once and he died instantly (head shot?).

Pawul fled and was filmed by a nearby resident's security camera as he climbed a barbed wire fence ripping clothing and injuring himself. He hid inside a garbage can. When he was found walking the next morning he had torn clothing and cuts on his hands and was carrying bear spray and a knife. He told the cops he was in the area visiting his girlfriend. His cellphone showed communication discussing the robbery.

http://q13fox.com/2018/01/10/suspect...ing-gun-battle
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
And the website publishes his mugshot. It fascinates me that articles such as that one are perfectly legal in the States. In the UK, it would've got the editor up to two years in jail and the website an unlimited fine for contempt of court.
How does it work in the UK? If a guy is charged with a crime and named the media cannot show a photo of him?

I believe the mugshot being circulated is from an older arrest.
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How does it work in the UK? If a guy is charged with a crime and named the media cannot show a photo of him?

I believe the mugshot being circulated is from an older arrest.
It would depend on what the court said - from a UK perspective it would appear that the court has made an order that the ID be kept secret, breaching such an order would be contempt of court. This may not be what the USA court was meaning - and it just seems that way to us in the UK.
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:34 AM   #49
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Now reported that Pawul was also wearing body armor. The getaway driver is Brenda Troyer. She has not been charged but almost certainly will be today.

https://patch.com/washington/puyallu...hit-above-vest

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/l...194056994.html
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:39 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It would depend on what the court said - from a UK perspective it would appear that the court has made an order that the ID be kept secret, breaching such an order would be contempt of court. This may not be what the USA court was meaning - and it just seems that way to us in the UK.
My guess is that the judge said no photos from today in court can show his face but said nothing about the media being prevented from showing a prior mugshot. Therefore no orders or laws were broken.
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:52 AM   #51
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Update: Police don't know yet if it was Carden or Pawul who killed the cop. It was a neck shot. Also can't say with certainty that Carden shot himself in the head as suicide or an accident.

https://www.kxly.com/news/local-news...self/684417356
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:03 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How does it work in the UK? If a guy is charged with a crime and named the media cannot show a photo of him?

I believe the mugshot being circulated is from an older arrest.
UK media are very restricted in what they can report when a case is sub judice (going through the legal process). They're not allowed to comment on the case, can never report things like reasons for denying bail and are basically restricted to factual statements about what happened in court. If identification is an issue, photos of the suspects aren't allowed either. I believe this is automatic, and doesn't require a special order from the court, but I might be wrong about that.
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Old 12th January 2018, 07:34 AM   #53
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Pawul and Troyer (getaway driver) were charged with first degree murder and kidnapping yesterday. Now we also know that Troyer is Pawul's girlfriend. After the incident he was texting her about what happened and that he was hiding in a garbage can and wanting her to pick him up. She was replying to him and informing him about what she had learned about the shootings (she fled the scene before the shootout).

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/l...194263594.html
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Old 12th January 2018, 08:26 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Reminds me of a video I saw where a man in NYC describes the "stop and frisk" encounters he went through. Police invariably said he "fit the description" of a suspect. The description was "black male, wearing white t-shirt and jeans". The man pointed out that this was every other guy walking around outside.

In any case, unless the police went berserk and began attacking/harrassing black guys en masse, this seems reasonable to me. You work with the best info you have, and update as more info becomes available.
I don't know about the attacking, but the harassing does sometimes happen.

I was once robbed at gun* point by a black male and gave a very detailed description to the cops. Both on 911 and later in person. The cop seemed to take notes. And nodded along with me.

For the next three hours the cops kept brining random black males by my apartment for me to ID. None of them came anywhere close to the description. Other than being black males. Half of them were sort of resigned to this sort of **** happening to them and the other half were pissed beyond belief and I think would have been happy to take a swing at me given the chance. I felt like an ass for ruining their night and could completely understand their anger and frustration. I was getting mad and frustrated on their behalf.

Perp was caught and I was able to ID him and he was still wearing the exact same clothes I noted and was about the height and weight I had noted. I was happy to move out of that apartment, though.

*Turned out to be a very good replica gun.
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Old 12th January 2018, 08:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
In any case, unless the police went berserk and began attacking/harrassing black guys en masse, this seems reasonable to me. You work with the best info you have, and update as more info becomes available.
The odd thing, though, is, that the witness statements that changed the description from "black" to "white or mixed" were from the residents of the trailer that was being burgled. You'd think they would be the first witness statements to be recorded.
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Old 12th January 2018, 09:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
being burgled.
Robbery, not burglary.

Quote:
You'd think they would be the first witness statements to be recorded.
Not necessarily. There may have been two different groups of cops. One group is working outdoors at the shooting scene with a witness there. Another group working inside with the robbed residents. The outdoor witness description may have come first.

We don't know many of the details or confirmed timeline of events.
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Old 12th January 2018, 08:17 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The odd thing, though, is, that the witness statements that changed the description from "black" to "white or mixed" were from the residents of the trailer that was being burgled. You'd think they would be the first witness statements to be recorded.
Would you?

Scenario: A robbery occurs. It is phoned in sorta in active robbery reporting fashion... "Come quick. 2222 Mulberry we just got stuck up in our house and the guys are running out the back door."

Cops happen to be nearby or get there in a hurry and one of the cops gets shot by one of the fleeing robbers, but not before he or his partner shoot one of the robbers (perhaps the shooter). There are people on their porches and on the street and one of them says, "I saw the other dood, he went up that alley!"

Now, who do you interview first?
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Old 12th January 2018, 10:15 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't know about the attacking, but the harassing does sometimes happen.

I was once robbed at gun* point by a black male and gave a very detailed description to the cops. Both on 911 and later in person. The cop seemed to take notes. And nodded along with me.

For the next three hours the cops kept brining random black males by my apartment for me to ID. None of them came anywhere close to the description. Other than being black males. Half of them were sort of resigned to this sort of **** happening to them and the other half were pissed beyond belief and I think would have been happy to take a swing at me given the chance. I felt like an ass for ruining their night and could completely understand their anger and frustration. I was getting mad and frustrated on their behalf.

Perp was caught and I was able to ID him and he was still wearing the exact same clothes I noted and was about the height and weight I had noted. I was happy to move out of that apartment, though.

*Turned out to be a very good replica gun.
What? The police bring random annoyed suspected thieves to your apartment? To ask you to ID them? Sounds completely stupid on so many levels. Even if the original thief has your address, now a whole lot more pissed off strangers know where you live.
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Old 12th January 2018, 10:33 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't know about the attacking, but the harassing does sometimes happen<snip story>
Oh, trust me, the "attacking" part has happened, to me. But I can see why police would work on the best info they have - so long as they do so with due caution and diligence. What you described is...not due caution.
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