Cont: All things Trump + Russia Part 3

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WilliamSeger said:
Did you happen to read any other articles on that Meduza site?.
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Their feed is on my newsreader list for a long time. A Navalny fan booth on the saner side of that isle with sometimes useful information. You just wanted to find something to "source critique" and BAM it went, eh? Sorry. :D

My performance is so great because I'm not afraid of information that doesn't follow a specific narrative. Unlike you know who. That's why it is so cute when people come up with the latest WP or NYT psy-op as if it were news and would neutralize my presented information. That's not how it works.
 
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Brainster said:
There's a pony in here somewhere!
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Yup, for example, this indictment doesn't address the stolen emails or how Papadopolous knew about them a month before any public knowledge.

Rachel Maddow noted last night how tight a ship Mueller has been running and how many surprises he's sprung on us: the Gates indictment; the Flynn plea bargain; the Papadopolous indictment and plea bargain; and now this massive indictment of specific Russians for specific crimes. Fasten your seat belts and keep your arms and feet inside the ride at all times.
 
Childlike Empress said:
^ "guesswork" is your motive speculation[...]
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If you say so. It's more than those pushing your narrative have been able to provide, though, isn't it? And it's what the article you linked to said was missing.

"rubbish" is the foundation for assuming the crime
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I didn't assume anything. I answered the question the article you linked to asked, and reiterated questions of my own that have gone unanswered.

Now stop pretending that I didn't tell you that the time of spoon-feeding is over. Do your homework if you want, don't expect to be taken seriously if you don't.
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More thoughtless dismissal, which both fails to address any arguments made, and which is based - once again - on things you're simply assuming about me. You would do so much better if you addressed the things I said, rather than opinions or knowledge that you assume I must or must not have.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
While it was obvious that Trump might be running, especially with a little push, it is also irrelevant:
the goal was to discredit the election process as a whole and mire the US in partisan distrust. Almost any Republican candidate would have fit the bill.
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[I know this is choir preaching, just wanted to spell it out.] Which does not mean once Trump was the nominee the Russians didn't get involved with top campaign persons trading favors, lifting sanctions, US staying out of Ukraine and letting Russia have Syria, in exchange for coordinating some of the Russian campaign activity.

Next balls to drop: the issue of hacking the DNC and Pedesta's emails, who was involved and when they knew; and, surely that money trail is going somewhere.
 
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NoahFence said:
Oh, well I'm convinced. Nothing to see here!

MAGA!
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I think it's quite a clever statement, actually. It can be read either as saying that he's not guilty of what he's accused of, or it can be read as bragging about how successful he was at doing what he's accused of. Or both.
 
Mumbles said:
At this point, the primary reason I doubt that Dolt 45 was working directly with Putin are

1) He's far too stupid to keep his mouth shut;
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But he stupidly didn't keep his mouth shut when he announced he'd be announcing some dirt on Clinton just after Donnie Jr had the Trump Tower meeting. The bumbling Trumpies were too stupid to keep it out of their emails and Trump/Hicks let it slip somewhere they wrote up the fake story about the adoptions Donnie Jr was to use.


Mumbles said:
b) he's a notorious backstabber.
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Right. Mueller is up to three plea deals now, I believe. Perhaps they know Trump's bus had no intention of swerving around them.

Mumbles said:
I could see blackmail, possibly - although he's also lacking in shame - or more likely, simply getting somewhat smarter people around him to manipulate him - which wouldn't be difficult at all..
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I think the press is missing the boat on the 'potential blackmail' bit. I can't see Trump caring except Melania gets mad, doubt he cares much there.

But, the real blackmail that's probably going on has to do with money laundering and large outstanding debts Trumps and Kushners owe.
 
Childlike Empress said:
You should better say (or think) a little bit more about what he writes about believing false narratives if they are just repeated often enough. What you type up is guesswork based on a mountain of rubbish you take for granted.

If you really want to understand the situation the Hopkins article is based upon (also known as reality), go to youtube and watch Putin's 2007 speech at the Munich Security Conference. And then go read the Wolfowitz doctrine. And then recapitulate the last decade. And then read Hopkins again.
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How many times have you said this now?
 
Childlike Empress said:
Their feed is on my newsreader list for a long time. A Navalny fan booth on the saner side of that isle with sometimes useful information. You just wanted to find something to "source critique" and BAM it went, eh? Sorry. :D

My performance is so great because I'm not afraid of information that doesn't follow a specific narrative. Unlike you know who. That's why it is so cute when people come up with the latest WP or NYT psy-op as if it were news and would neutralize my presented information. That's not how it works.
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LOL, that reminds me of your claims that people are "afraid" of 9/11 conspiracy theories, but once again your most damaging foe is not people who are "afraid" to read your links; it's people who do read them.
 
Mumbles said:
At this point, the primary reason I doubt that Dolt 45 was working directly with Putin are

1) He's far too stupid to keep his mouth shut;
b) he's a notorious backstabber.

I could see blackmail, possibly - although he's also lacking in shame - or more likely, simply getting somewhat smarter people around him to manipulate him - which wouldn't be difficult at all.

But like I keep saying, Mueller runs a tight ship - whatever comes next will likely happen on his time table.
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Also he doesn't do anything himself, he is of the comfortable class which means other people do things for him.
 
WilliamSeger said:
Did you happen to read any other articles on that Meduza site?

Russian journalists publish massive investigation into St. Petersburg troll factory's U.S. operations

An ex St. Petersburg ‘troll’ speaks out: Russian independent TV network interviews former troll at the Internet Research Agency

How many times does Prigozhin need to repeat his denials before we "very impressionable" Americans start believing it?

One key aspect of both Russian and Trumpian propaganda is the idea that there's no way to determine objective truth, so what they say is just as valid as what anyone else says. As comedians like to say, if you buy the premise, you buy the bit.
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It's one level up from 'propaganda'. From your link:

A source also told RBC that the Internet Research Agency spent almost $80,000 over two years, hiring roughly 100 local American activists to stage about 40 rallies in different cities across the United States. The activists were hired over the Internet, communicating in English, without their knowledge that they were accepting money or organizing support from a Russian organization. According to RBC, internal records from the IRA verify its role in these activities.
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Add to that a massive $1.2m budget per calendar month to target social media, such as Twitter, this is no canvassing or hustling, this is serious interference. No business - state capitialist, or not - will invest those sums of money unless profitable returns are expected.

We know Trump has been dealing with Russian Oligarchs since year 2005.

It will be very surprising if there is no collusion and it is all pure coincidence.
 
Vixen said:
Add to that a massive $1.2m budget per calendar month to target social media, such as Twitter, this is no canvassing or hustling, this is serious interference. No business - state capitialist, or not - will invest those sums of money unless profitable returns are expected.
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Tsk, tsk, have you been sniffing misleading propaganda again? Indictment, point 11a (page 6) points out that the project had "multiple components, some targeting domestic audiences within the Russian federation and others targeting foreign audiences in various countries, including the United States." Point 11b states that at one point in September 2016 the budget for the whole project was $1.25 Million per month.

So don't take yourself so seriously. Getting Brits to Brexit and Germans to Wir-sind-das-Volk and French to Le-Penning and last but not least Russians to tolerate bad school meals was all included in that budget, according to Mueller.

Seriously, you should all read b's assessment Mueller Indictment - The "Russian Influence" Is A Commercial Marketing Scheme

Much of it has been known for a long time to people who paid attention.
 
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fagin said:
It's not exactly 'all my own work'.



Although now I'm hurt....

And unknown.
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Sorry, it's a me thing, not a you thing. I don't tend to pay a great deal of attention to who other people on forums are. And, even if I do know who people are after interacting with them for a while, if I go for a period of not interacting with them, I'm likely to forget again.

I do like and remember your avatar, though, if that helps.
 
From the indictment it seems like a good time to reexamine their reason for voting the way they did.
Especially Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein supporters must ask themselves if they haven't been conned by the Russian trolls the same way Trump supporters have.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
From the indictment it seems like a good time to reexamine their reason for voting the way they did.
Especially Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein supporters must ask themselves if they haven't been conned by the Russian trolls the same way Trump supporters have.
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Pfffttt. As if they'd ever admit it to themselves. :rolleyes:
 
Childlike Empress said:
Prigozhin about his indictment:
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NoahFence said:
Oh, well I'm convinced. Nothing to see here!

MAGA!
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I think it's quite a clever statement, actually. It can be read either as saying that he's not guilty of what he's accused of, or it can be read as bragging about how successful he was at doing what he's accused of. Or both.
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https://thebell.io/en/real-losses-first-russia-u-s-clash-syria/

Last week, the Russian private military company Wagner Group suffered possibly the heaviest losses in the whole Russian operation in Syria in a battle with the U.S. Air Force over an oil refinery in Deir ez-Zor. The Russian army was officially withdrawn from Syria at the end of 2017, but paramilitary mercenary forces, officially not linked with the government, have stayed.

The numbers range from 5 dead and several wounded (a late official acknowledgement by the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs) to 100 dead and 200 wounded (the latest report by Reuters).

In 2017, the media reported that a company owned by the main sponsor of the Wagner Group, Evgeny Prigozhin, had signed an agreement with Bashar Assad’s government giving him a share in Syrian oil export income in exchange for the military protection of the oilfields.

The sponsor of the group is Evgeny Prigozhin, owner of the St. Petersburg internet Troll factory heavily involved in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Today, Prigozhin and his associates were indicted by Special Counsel Robert Mueller, accused them of defrauding the U.S. government by interfering with the political process. The battle at Deir-ez-Zor appears to be the first direct clash between the Russian and American soldiers since the war in Vietnam. Fortunately, both sides don’t regard the Russian private contractors as a government directed force.
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Thanks, didn't know about that connection.
There is something rotten in the state of Russia, let's see if Putin can put the genie back into the bottle.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Thanks, didn't know about that connection.
There is something rotten in the state of Russia, let's see if Putin can put the genie back into the bottle.
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The rest of the article is worth reading - in light of the Putin fanboys. Apparently video of oligarchs entertaining Russian officials on yachts is nothing that the populace should know about, so youtube videos of such meetings should be blocked.
 
Belz... said:
Depending on the side you're on, pick your answer:
1) Well, if he denies it, he's innocent! No guilty man denies his crime!
2) Well, if he denies it, he's guilty! A guilty man always denies his crime!
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Yup. Another way to look at it -- guilty people proclaim their innocence, innocent people proclaim their innocence.

This is why proclamations of innocence from a person on the hot seat should be assigned zero weight by critical thinkers.

Signed,
Capt Obvious
 
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varwoche said:
Yup. Another way to look at it -- guilty people proclaim their innocence, innocent people proclaim their innocence.

This is why proclamations of innocence from a person on the hot seat should be assigned zero weight by critical thinkers.

Signed,
Capt Obvious
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What about police charges? Is there any weight to these charges if the FBI charges both guilty and innocent people?
 
American intelligence and the Congress intelligence committee are unintelligent with all this Russian collusion in American and British elections stuff. America has been interfering in elections in Syria and Ukraine and Russia and Latin America for years, and not a whiff of useful criticism from the corporate media about it.
 
Henri McPhee said:
American intelligence and the Congress intelligence committee are unintelligent with all this Russian collusion in American and British elections stuff. America has been interfering in elections in Syria and Ukraine and Russia and Latin America for years, and not a whiff of useful criticism from the corporate media about it.
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As pure an example of whataboutism as one is likely to ever see.

Sir, with your permission, I would like to add that post to the Wikipedia article on whataboutism as a great example of fallacious argument.

Do I have that permission?
 
Henri McPhee said:
American intelligence and the Congress intelligence committee are unintelligent with all this Russian collusion in American and British elections stuff. America has been interfering in elections in Syria and Ukraine and Russia and Latin America for years, and not a whiff of useful criticism from the corporate media about it.
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Whataboutism is not exculpatory evidence.
 
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965199840471810049

Donald J. Trump‏

Finally, Liddle’ Adam Schiff, the leakin’ monster of no control, is now blaming the Obama Administration for Russian meddling in the 2016 Election. He is finally right about something. Obama was President, knew of the threat, and did nothing. Thank you Adam!
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I suppose the question is - what has Trump done about it in the year+ that he's been president? According to the heads of the various intelligence bureaus, as per last week's testimony, nothing. Surely if that's wrong, Trump will be able to point to the things he's done.
 
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