Australian woman shot dead by Minneapolis police

http://www.startribune.com/minneapo...-charges-in-justine-damond-killing/477405923/

Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor turns himself in on murder, manslaughter charges in Justine Damond killing

That very detailed account raises a lot of questions, starting with the fact that they entered the alley with their searchlight on but their headlights and other lights off. With the searchlight on, they obviously weren't trying to be stealthy; why not light up everything? They were responding to an emergency call, but they never turned their cameras on until after the shooting; seems like they'd want the cameras on as soon as they got to the scene. They never stopped the car; seems like getting out and looking around would be part of any investigation of a potential crime in progress. Noor in the passenger seat shot across his partner, the driver, possibly endangering him. Dumb, trigger-happy cop.
 
From the BBC:

Mr Noor's lawyer, Tom Plunkett, said his client should not have been charged.

"The facts will show that Office Noor acted as he has been trained and consistent with established departmental policy," Mr Plunkett said in a statement.


What are the odds Mr Plunkett succeeds in his defence? Is there any option at that point to prosecute those responsible for the inadequate and dangerous training?



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-43480859
 
That very detailed account raises a lot of questions, starting with the fact that they entered the alley with their searchlight on but their headlights and other lights off. With the searchlight on, they obviously weren't trying to be stealthy; why not light up everything? They were responding to an emergency call, but they never turned their cameras on until after the shooting; seems like they'd want the cameras on as soon as they got to the scene. They never stopped the car; seems like getting out and looking around would be part of any investigation of a potential crime in progress. Noor in the passenger seat shot across his partner, the driver, possibly endangering him. Dumb, trigger-happy cop.

Camera's should have been turned on when they arrived on scene but the officers had radio'd "Code 4" (investigation complete) and were getting ready to leave when the shooting happened.
 
From the BBC:

What are the odds Mr Plunkett succeeds in his defence? Is there any option at that point to prosecute those responsible for the inadequate and dangerous training?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-43480859

If the prosecution decides to get serious, possibly the officer will go to jail - he's a muslim black immigrant after all, and while the victim was also an immigrant, she was white. The racist crap goes towards the cop this time, although there's still the "police are always right" instinct that many people have.

The people responsible for the training? very unlikely, outside of local elections leading to reform - this is often where the federal government gets involved, but the white supremacists currently in charge are vastly more likely to blame immigrants or "thuggish black men" than anything else.
 
What are the odds Mr Plunkett succeeds in his defence? Is there any option at that point to prosecute those responsible for the inadequate and dangerous training?

Isn't "I was trained this way" part of the successful defense used by the police officer Philip Brailsford when he killed Daniel Shaver in Arizona?
 
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Isn't "I was trained this way" part of the successful defense used by the police officer Philip Brailsford when he killed Daniel Shaver in Arizona?

Dunno, but it was part of the defense for the guys that killed Freddie Grey in Bmore - along with "you can't prove I took this training or read any emails related to my job."
 
They get away with murder most of the time, so the odds are good that this will end the same way.

The reason I don’t think he will get away with it is that the investigation was long and seemingly thorough. I expect a plea deal and a couple of years jail, which will be inadequate but justice of sorts.
 
The reason I don’t think he will get away with it is that the investigation was long and seemingly thorough. I expect a plea deal and a couple of years jail, which will be inadequate but justice of sorts.

This is almost a guarantee of a not guilty verdict. The driver was ready to shoot, too. Noor just beat Harrity to it.

Harrity, the driver, told investigators he was “spooked,” feared for his life, and took his gun from its holster before Noor reached across and fired his weapon out the driver’s side window.
 
It still amazes me that the preferred defense for police now-a-days is "I was scared. And so I did something very stupid and killed an innocent person." Being scared is entirely understandable. Hell- anyone would be! But the key, the central requirement of the job is that even though the officer will undoubtably at times be scared they must not allow that fear to cause them to do extraordinarily dangerous stuff or kill innocent people. That is why we try to be very selective in recruiting and retaining police officers, and why proper training is so important.

For a police officer to try to get a pass for doing something stupid and deadly because they were afraid makes me think of an airline pilot excusing a crash because the thunderstorm frightened him, or a solder running away because the battle terrified him. These fears are understandable, but not a surprise- the scary stuff is inherent to these professions. If one cannot work through the fear, overcome it or somehow punch through it to do what is expected of you, then that job is not for you! You might be a great person. You might be even braver than most. But if something that is an inevitable part of your job will cause you to make the wrong life-or-death decision, then you should seek another career.
 
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If the prosecution decides to get serious, possibly the officer will go to jail - he's a muslim black immigrant after all, and while the victim was also an immigrant, she was white. The racist crap goes towards the cop this time, although there's still the "police are always right" instinct that many people have.

The people responsible for the training? very unlikely, outside of local elections leading to reform - this is often where the federal government gets involved, but the white supremacists currently in charge are vastly more likely to blame immigrants or "thuggish black men" than anything else.

Remember right at the start of all this the BLM activists came out in support of the victim because they saw it as all part of the same thing and they were right, the problem is 'shoot first' training that emphasizes that Black people are inherently violent.

That said there are people now trotting out the 'He killed a white woman' card.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...oman-thats-why-hes-here/ar-BBKx5uk?li=AAgfYrC
 
It still amazes me that the preferred defense for police now-a-days is "I was scared. And so I did something very stupid and killed an innocent person." Being scared is entirely understandable. Hell- anyone would be! But the key, the central requirement of the job is that even though the officer will undoubtably at times be scared they must not allow that fear to cause them to do extraordinarily dangerous stuff or kill innocent people. That is why we try to be very selective in recruiting and retaining police officers, and why proper training is so important.

For a police officer to try to get a pass for doing something stupid and deadly because they were afraid makes me think of an airline pilot excusing a crash because the thunderstorm frightened him, or a solder running away because the battle terrified him. These fears are understandable, but not a surprise- the scary stuff is inherent to these professions. If one cannot work through the fear, overcome it or somehow punch through it to do what is expected of you, then that job is not for you! You might be a great person. You might be even braver than most. But if something that is an inevitable part of your job will cause you to make the wrong life-or-death decision, then you should seek another career.

Correct in every way.
 
It still amazes me that the preferred defense for police now-a-days is "I was scared. And so I did something very stupid and killed an innocent person." Being scared is entirely understandable. Hell- anyone would be! But the key, the central requirement of the job is that even though the officer will undoubtably at times be scared they must not allow that fear to cause them to do extraordinarily dangerous stuff or kill innocent people. That is why we try to be very selective in recruiting and retaining police officers, and why proper training is so important.

This is not a coincidence, but rather quite literally the legal standard for officer shootings, as ruled by the Supreme Court of the US in Tennessee vs. Garner. If the officer has an "objectively reasonable" fear, he is legally permitted to shoot and kill. This is how the cop that killed Philando Castile was allowed to walk free, despite the fact that he was very clearly in a state of total panic.

Combine this defense with three things: first, "warrior policing", or the idea that police must deal with deadly enemies that blend into the population, and their first priority isn't to "protect and serve", but rather to make it home safe at the end of their shift, and if someone else is killed then too bad. Second, The US' long history of dehumanizing non-white people - whether the "wetback", or more importantly, the "brute" stereotype of black men (now more commonly referred to as the "thug") and the "savage" stereotype of Native Americans (who are more likely to be abused by police than black people, though this rarely receives much media attention - see the DAPL protests for a perfect example of this). And third, our atrocious handling of people with mental illnesses.

Remember right at the start of all this the BLM activists came out in support of the victim because they saw it as all part of the same thing and they were right, the problem is 'shoot first' training that emphasizes that Black people are inherently violent.

That said there are people now trotting out the 'He killed a white woman' card.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...oman-thats-why-hes-here/ar-BBKx5uk?li=AAgfYrC

And there's also the famous example of the guy in Arizona who was killed for "Failure to Hokey Pokey". This is all predictable, and in fact very easy to predict, because all of the key players are perfectly honest about what they'll do, and why. I keep saying that, ultimately, I wasn't surprised at all to discover that four cops chose not to intervene during the Parkland shooting because police across the country told us exactly what their motivation is. Even if it's only 1 in 4 cops like that, it's just a matter of time until you get four of them at a massacre who all have the same attitude.

But the fact is, there aren't any real stereotypes about the savage rapine Aussie white women. There are plenty of negative stereotypes about immigrants, muslims, and black people, as we've seen almost incessantly over the years. So really, I agree that he's in jail because he's a Muslim black immigrant who shot a white woman. Reverse the two, and people will run to donate money to make sure that the white woman cop is well-protected, and will insist against all evidence that the victim is a "thug", "terrorist", and so on.

You can argue that this shouldn't play a role in any case - but not really that it doesn't. And similarly, I'm not saying that this guy shouldn't be in jail - but I will argue that there are quite a few police that shot black/Native/mentally ill people who should also be (well, police, and one abusive wannabe vigilante in Sanford FL...). We'll see if the prosecution decides to a good job this time, or if they throw the case yet again - I'm not quite certain what to expect in this case, for the reasons I already gave.
 
This is not a coincidence, but rather quite literally the legal standard for officer shootings, as ruled by the Supreme Court of the US in Tennessee vs. Garner. If the officer has an "objectively reasonable" fear, he is legally permitted to shoot and kill.
.....

That still allows jurors to ask whether an armed, trained police officer's fear was in fact "objectively reasonable," and to conclude that it wasn't. I would be willing to say that it was not "objectively reasonable" for a cop surrounded by other armed cops to fear for his life from drunk crawling on the floor begging for his life, or from a guy with his kid in the car reaching for his wallet, or for a woman approaching the patrol car when you are responding to a call for service from a woman about a possible rape at that location. I can't help but wonder whether some of these cases are being lost because the prosecutors -- maybe because they have to get re-elected -- aren't as tough and aggressive as the defense attorneys.
 
That still allows jurors to ask whether an armed, trained police officer's fear was in fact "objectively reasonable," and to conclude that it wasn't. I would be willing to say that it was not "objectively reasonable" for a cop surrounded by other armed cops to fear for his life from drunk crawling on the floor begging for his life, or from a guy with his kid in the car reaching for his wallet, or for a woman approaching the patrol car when you are responding to a call for service from a woman about a possible rape at that location. I can't help but wonder whether some of these cases are being lost because the prosecutors -- maybe because they have to get re-elected -- aren't as tough and aggressive as the defense attorneys.

Well, that one's clear - the DA in the Michael Brown case went to great lengths to explain that he outright brought in "witnesses" who he knew would lie under oath, as one example (and keep in mind, I still think this may have been a justified shooting - but when the DA and the rest of the local government is so brazenly corrupt, there's no chance to actually clear him). And there are also juries who believe the same stereotypes (see, again, many threads on shootings in this forum), or in some cases simply refuse to convict a cop regardless. And as I noted above, even when you see a relatively aggressive prosecutor (the Freddie Grey murder in Baltimore) cases often get thrown out on grounds of "he did what he was trained to do". And Eric Garner was basically killed for being outside in public - a sergeant saw him, got angry, and demanded that some lower-ranking guys go out and harass him.

The two cases you're discussing haven't gone to trial yet, to my knowledge, so we can't say what role stereotyping played in any outcome - particularly in the latter case.
 
Yeah, it still amazes me that the common defense of being a dumbass is "don't blame me; I was trained to be a dumbass."

Even if that works and the prosecutor accepts that it's the training, not the individual responsible for the godalmighty cockup, then surely the next step is to prosecute whoever wrote and approved the dumbass training?


If a medical professional follows an approved, but inadequate procedure, the patient dies and he medic can show they followed the approved procedure, what happens then? I suspect it is not that the matter is forgotten.
 
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If the prosecution decides to get serious, possibly the officer will go to jail - he's a muslim black immigrant after all, and while the victim was also an immigrant, she was white. The racist crap goes towards the cop this time, although there's still the "police are always right" instinct that many people have.

Was she an immigrant or tourist?
 
It still amazes me that the preferred defense for police now-a-days is "I was scared. And so I did something very stupid and killed an innocent person." Being scared is entirely understandable. Hell- anyone would be! But the key, the central requirement of the job is that even though the officer will undoubtably at times be scared they must not allow that fear to cause them to do extraordinarily dangerous stuff or kill innocent people. That is why we try to be very selective in recruiting and retaining police officers, and why proper training is so important.

For a police officer to try to get a pass for doing something stupid and deadly because they were afraid makes me think of an airline pilot excusing a crash because the thunderstorm frightened him, or a solder running away because the battle terrified him. These fears are understandable, but not a surprise- the scary stuff is inherent to these professions. If one cannot work through the fear, overcome it or somehow punch through it to do what is expected of you, then that job is not for you! You might be a great person. You might be even braver than most. But if something that is an inevitable part of your job will cause you to make the wrong life-or-death decision, then you should seek another career.

This is why calling the police when you hear a violent incident is the worst decision you can make. They are violent and uncontroled and poorly trained just ask them. As such they can never be held accountable for their actions.
 
Was she an immigrant or tourist?

As usual, doesn't matter much, since she's white. Remember, when these folks screech about "immigrants", it's usually Latinx (who they see as "nonwhite"), "Muslim" (ie. brown), and sometimes Asian, black or Native American (seriously) people that they're actually screeching about. Even Dolt 45 said he'd love more immigration from mostly white countries.
 
Even if that works and the prosecutor accepts that it's the training, not the individual responsible for the godalmighty cockup, then surely the next step is to prosecute whoever wrote and approved the dumbass training?

That would be a civil suit, and not grounds for prosecution.

But yeah, that's what should happen. They could sue those who did the training, with the argument "Your training results in the death of innocent people and is therefore harmful."

They need to convince a jury of 6 that it is more likely true than not that the training fails. It is indisputable that the training is responsible.

Scarily enough, they could almost make it a class-action suit.
 
That would be a civil suit, and not grounds for prosecution.

Why does poor training excuse the criminal act? What crimes can get negated with that as an argument?

You have an negligent discharge and you get out of the manslaughter charge by blaming the poor training?
 
That would be a civil suit, and not grounds for prosecution.

But yeah, that's what should happen. They could sue those who did the training, with the argument "Your training results in the death of innocent people and is therefore harmful."

They need to convince a jury of 6 that it is more likely true than not that the training fails. It is indisputable that the training is responsible.


Hasn't that already been established if the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that they were following their training?
 
Hasn't that already been established if the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that they were following their training?


Different courts, different rules. Civil courts are not criminal courts.

That's why people can be found guilty (or innocent) in one for exactly the same crimes they can be found innocent (or guilty) of in the other.
 
Different courts, different rules. Civil courts are not criminal courts.

That's why people can be found guilty (or innocent) in one for exactly the same crimes they can be found innocent (or guilty) of in the other.


I figured it'd be something akin to that.

If the goal is to try to make sure this doesn't happen again, that's a bit pants. It's like your contents insurer referring you to your buildings insurer who refer you back to contents. Like that but with dead people.
 
Hasn't that already been established if the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that they were following their training?

Yes, that's what I mean. If the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that he was just following his training, then go after those that provided the training, and argue that the training is inappropriate. As you note (and what I said), it is already established that the training is responsible. Therefore, go after the ones who provide the training.

The point is, that's a civil suit, not anything that can be prosecuted.
 
Yes, that's what I mean. If the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that he was just following his training, then go after those that provided the training, and argue that the training is inappropriate. As you note (and what I said), it is already established that the training is responsible. Therefore, go after the ones who provide the training.

The point is, that's a civil suit, not anything that can be prosecuted.

Which is why improper handling of firearms resulting in death can never be charged an manslaughter, as no training is necessary you can never be criminally negligent. That is why the the no time but criminal conviction of manslaughter for Peter Liang was such an egregious violation of his rights.
 
Why does poor training excuse the criminal act? What crimes can get negated with that as an argument?

Begs the question of what constitutes a crime.

If a doctor gives a cancer patient chemo and it kills them, is that a crime? Giving someone a deadly toxin that kills them is murder, right? Or, the fact that the doctor was following proper medical procedure means that it is not wrong, even though the person died.

Similarly, if the police officers were following "police procedure" and someone dies, it is not negligent. It is what they were supposed to be doing.

In both of these cases, the question is, is it correct that they _should_ be doing that? For the doctor, maybe yes, although if he used a non-safe chemo drug, then the answer is no. If the doctor is using a standard chemo drug, and you don't think that chemo drug is safe, the answer is to sue the drug manufacturers (or the FDA for approving it). It doesn't make sense to blame the doctor who is using it in its prescribed manner, and it's not a prosecutable case. It's a civil law suit.
 
Which is why improper handling of firearms resulting in death can never be charged an manslaughter, as no training is necessary you can never be criminally negligent.

That doesn't follow. The police are claiming that they are acting according to the training. Someone accused of manslaughter who has no training cannot claim they acted in accord with any training.
 
Begs the question of what constitutes a crime.

Not at all. If we assume that a behavior is a crime, does being with in the scope of training excuse the crime? Do police really get an "I was only following Orders/Instructions" as an absolute defence to crimes they commit? Many here are arguing that they do. You can sue the department for their policy of criminal ways but you can not charge the individual officers with the crimes they commit.

Similarly, if the police officers were following "police procedure" and someone dies, it is not negligent. It is what they were supposed to be doing.

Nope. To start with they would need to fit into reasonable standards and it would need to be a broadly accepted as reasonable behavior. There is no "Hey he was running and department policy is to shoot blacks who run" exemption for murder.

It's a civil law suit.

No it can certainly be a criminal law suit. For the doctor if you were operating outside accepted standards of care you could certainly open yourself up to manslaughter charges if egregious enough. See gross negligence manslaughter as a criminal charge for doctors.
 
That doesn't follow. The police are claiming that they are acting according to the training. Someone accused of manslaughter who has no training cannot claim they acted in accord with any training.

THere is no legal need for training so how can negligence be possible?
 
That still allows jurors to ask whether an armed, trained police officer's fear was in fact "objectively reasonable," and to conclude that it wasn't. I would be willing to say that it was not "objectively reasonable" for a cop surrounded by other armed cops to fear for his life from drunk crawling on the floor begging for his life, or from a guy with his kid in the car reaching for his wallet, or for a woman approaching the patrol car when you are responding to a call for service from a woman about a possible rape at that location. I can't help but wonder whether some of these cases are being lost because the prosecutors -- maybe because they have to get re-elected -- aren't as tough and aggressive as the defense attorneys.
This is where the cops/system really want to eat their cake and have it too. I mean, isn't the one of the major points of training to cope with fear and still operate in a professional capacity? Yet the cops invariably claim "I was afraid so I shot him thirty seven times. Don't prosecute me though because I was just following procedures."


Even if that works and the prosecutor accepts that it's the training, not the individual responsible for the godalmighty cockup, then surely the next step is to prosecute whoever wrote and approved the dumbass training?


If a medical professional follows an approved, but inadequate procedure, the patient dies and he medic can show they followed the approved procedure, what happens then? I suspect it is not that the matter is forgotten.
Except the problem with this comparison is that doctors get over a decade of serious training before being trusted to do many life or death procedures alone. Cops are woefully, pathetically "trained" even when compared to cosmetologists in some states.

But setting that aside, the sad fact is that since policing grew out of the idea of common law self-defense, the profession of policing never really changed the rules under which they operate and that's what I would change in a heartbeat. But when it comes to our governmental representatives in all capacities who break the law, I'm pretty harsh compared to every day criminals. The added factor is that our governmental representatives are imbued with the trust of the public and so when that's betrayed, the consequences should be far, far, far more severe.



This is why calling the police when you hear a violent incident is the worst decision you can make. They are violent and uncontroled and poorly trained just ask them. As such they can never be held accountable for their actions.
QFT.
 
.....
But setting that aside, the sad fact is that since policing grew out of the idea of common law self-defense, the profession of policing never really changed the rules under which they operate and that's what I would change in a heartbeat.
.....

I'm not sure that's true. Cops today are more likely to have been trained in what amounts to a combat zone, "them or us" mentality. It's also the case that many cops don't actually live in the jurisdictions where they work, so they are neither protecting nor policing their neighbors. Modern cops seem to resort to deadly force in situations where an old time cop on the beat might have used his baton, and even been criticized for going that far.
 
I'm not sure that's true. Cops today are more likely to have been trained in what amounts to a combat zone, "them or us" mentality. It's also the case that many cops don't actually live in the jurisdictions where they work, so they are neither protecting nor policing their neighbors. Modern cops seem to resort to deadly force in situations where an old time cop on the beat might have used his baton, and even been criticized for going that far.

Um...not so much, no. I'm only 40, and grew up when/where police violence was routine - in the 1980s, in Boston. And you can talk to plenty of older people, around the country, who have had police in previous decades simply jump out of cars, beat them, and drive off. This was the very specific reason why groups like the Deacons for Defense and the Black Panther Party armed themselves - and it wasn't just the stereotypical "racist hillbilly".

What's actually changed is recording technology. It's relatively easy to find video of police simply planting evidence, or freaking out and shooting wildly at someone who was just minding their own business - with Stephon Clark being the latest in a long line of such recordings - but people have been discussing this since at least the Great Migration - and pointing out that it can be turned onto other groups as well.

(I know much less about LGBT history in the US than black American history, so I'll only state that I know that they've said much the same for a long time now)
 
Yes, that's what I mean. If the suspect is acquitted on the grounds that he was just following his training, then go after those that provided the training, and argue that the training is inappropriate. As you note (and what I said), it is already established that the training is responsible. Therefore, go after the ones who provide the training.

The point is, that's a civil suit, not anything that can be prosecuted.


Regardless of the actual legal position, if the actions taken by this police officer were in line with his training then those responsible for the training should be held criminally liable. Somebody, somewhere, signed it off. Whomsoever put their signature at the bottom of the page, the one with whom the buck stops, should be held criminally liable for this lady's death.
 
Begs the question of what constitutes a crime.

If a doctor gives a cancer patient chemo and it kills them, is that a crime? Giving someone a deadly toxin that kills them is murder, right? Or, the fact that the doctor was following proper medical procedure means that it is not wrong, even though the person died.

Similarly, if the police officers were following "police procedure" and someone dies, it is not negligent. It is what they were supposed to be doing.

In both of these cases, the question is, is it correct that they _should_ be doing that? For the doctor, maybe yes, although if he used a non-safe chemo drug, then the answer is no. If the doctor is using a standard chemo drug, and you don't think that chemo drug is safe, the answer is to sue the drug manufacturers (or the FDA for approving it). It doesn't make sense to blame the doctor who is using it in its prescribed manner, and it's not a prosecutable case. It's a civil law suit.
There's a fundamental difference between the doctor and the police officer.

The doctor can point to scientific literature and say: yes, this chemo treatment has a 70% mortality rate, but doing nothing has a mortality rate of 100% and the chemo is currently the best we've got.

The police officer's training results in, in this case, one dead; doing nothing would have resulted in zero deaths, and acting according to training from an arbitrary other first-world country would also have resulted in zero deaths.
 
There's a fundamental difference between the doctor and the police officer.

The doctor can point to scientific literature and say: yes, this chemo treatment has a 70% mortality rate, but doing nothing has a mortality rate of 100% and the chemo is currently the best we've got.

The police officer's training results in, in this case, one dead; doing nothing would have resulted in zero deaths, and acting according to training from an arbitrary other first-world country would also have resulted in zero deaths.

But it doesn't work that way. Look at the opioid crisis thread. Doctors are prescribing opioids at a high rate, and there is no evidence to back up the practice. So action is being taken - not against the doctor, but against the drug companies.

"You gave them drugs and they died" is the equivalent to PT's "you fired the weapon and killed them." Doctors aren't getting prosecuted for prescribing pills that lead to deaths. The responsibility lies higher up.
 

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