Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conferenc

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Skeptic Ginger said:
It's a different kind of delusion than psychotic or other hallucinatory delusions. And it's not quite the delusion one is Napoleon.

Delusions of grandeur are definitely part of Trump's syndrome. This link summarizes different kinds of delusions of grandeur: Psych Central: Delusion of Grandeur By John M. Grohol, Psy.D.



Such delusions are maintained the same way we all have the mental defense mechanisms of denial, rationalization and cognitive dissonance.
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If someone has grown up their whole life as an elite in society, has built successful businesses, rebounded from numerous failures, had marriages and affairs with beautiful women, has millions of fans, etc -and on top of all that was elected POTUS, is it really a delusion of grandeur? You bolded the following in your citation:

In such disorders, the person has a greatly out-of-proportion sense of their own worth and value in the world.
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He is now what other people call the most powerful person in the world. So to call it a delusion of grandeur or an obvious pathology is a bit of a stretch.

No. You don't like him and this is more a matter of your own thoughts about him. You don't think he's all that, so if he does, he must be deluded in the medical sense. This is exactly why people biased against him shouldn't be the ones assessing him.
 
kellyb said:
What's the argument for allowing sociopathic narcissists to run the executive branch of the nation's government?
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Their personality uniquely qualifies them to survive the campaign process and cope with the stresses of the job?

Our government institutions are robust enough that the effect of their personality doesn't actually matter all that much?

That which is not forbidden is permitted?

That last one is pretty good. We've gone almost 250 years without needing an "president unless you're crazy" clause in the Constitution. You want to change that now, show your working.

And by "show your working" I mean, cite the peer-reviewed research that justifies the change you're proposing. Again, the Yale group is long on hype and short on actual science.
 
theprestige said:
Their personality uniquely qualifies them to survive the campaign process and cope with the stresses of the job?

Our government institutions are robust enough that the effect of their personality doesn't actually matter all that much?

That which is not forbidden is permitted?

That last one is pretty good. We've gone almost 250 years without needing an "president unless you're crazy" clause in the Constitution. You want to change that now, show your working.

And by "show your working" I mean, cite the peer-reviewed research that justifies the change you're proposing. Again, the Yale group is long on hype and short on actual science.
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The doctor that jimbob referred to earlier, Dr. Jerrold Post, thinks: "If you were to strip from the ranks of political figures all those with significant narcissistic personality traits, those ranks would be perilously impoverished."

My own personal opinion is that it's very difficult to be a dangerously mentally ill person while achieving a high level of success in the USA; but you can certainly be a significant narcissist. People who are dangerously mentally ill -you know, actually do things that reflect dangerous mental illness. These actions tend to limit the success they can achieve.
 
theprestige said:
Their personality uniquely qualifies them to survive the campaign process and cope with the stresses of the job?
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Is there evidence that's the case?

Our government institutions are robust enough that the effect of their personality doesn't actually matter all that much?
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Same question.

That which is not forbidden is permitted?
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That's just a tautology.
 
dudalb said:
Question is if malignant narcissisism qualifies as legal insanity.
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Malignant narcissism isn't even a diagnosis in the current DSM. It just sounds really scary and bad. Same way that call him "pathological" makes it sound really scary and bad, even though it really only means that it involves a physical or mental disease. Pathologists don't study mental health disorders most of the time - they study laboratory tests to determine the cause of a symptom, particularly bacterial, viral, or fungal causes.

But hey, scary names in order to incite an emotional response is totally the way skepticism works so just roll with it!
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
It's a different kind of delusion than psychotic or other hallucinatory delusions. And it's not quite the delusion one is Napoleon.

Delusions of grandeur are definitely part of Trump's syndrome. This link summarizes different kinds of delusions of grandeur: Psych Central: Delusion of Grandeur By John M. Grohol, Psy.D.


Such delusions are maintained the same way we all have the mental defense mechanisms of denial, rationalization and cognitive dissonance.
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Lol... "the person has a greatly out-of-proportion sense of their own worth and value in the world"

What sense of worth and value in the world is the president of the US supposed to have? I mean, seriously, there aren't a whole lot of people out there who can claim to have a higher worth or value to the world, are there?

After all, that worth and value is part of the spur to emotionalism being used here: the president so incredibly powerful and so incredibly important that we shouldn't let this guy have the job regardless of whether he was elected to it or not... but simultaneously, it's evidence of his craziness if he thinks he's so incredibly powerful and so incredibly important.
 
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kellyb said:
What's the argument for allowing sociopathic narcissists to run the executive branch of the nation's government?
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Sociopathic narcissists are really good at running things, because they don't give a crap about people's feelings.

Haven't you read all the various articles on how CEOs and politicians all seem to exhibit sociopathic tendencies? It's not just some weird coincidence :)
 
Emily's Cat said:
Lol... "the person has a greatly out-of-proportion sense of their own worth and value in the world"

What sense of worth and value in the world is the president of the US supposed to have? I mean, seriously, there aren't a whole lot of people out there who can claim to have a higher worth or value to the world, are there?
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His grandiosity long predates his winning the election, though.
 
xjx388 said:
If someone has grown up their whole life as an elite in society, has built successful businesses, rebounded from numerous failures, had marriages and affairs with beautiful women, has millions of fans, etc -and on top of all that was elected POTUS, is it really a delusion of grandeur? You bolded the following in your citation:

He is now what other people call the most powerful person in the world. So to call it a delusion of grandeur or an obvious pathology is a bit of a stretch.

No. You don't like him and this is more a matter of your own thoughts about him. You don't think he's all that, so if he does, he must be deluded in the medical sense. This is exactly why people biased against him shouldn't be the ones assessing him.
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Been addressed multiple times. Trump falls way over on the pathologic end of the narcissism continuum.

You don't seem to get the distinction so let me ask you this: Do you not recognize there is such a thing as pathologic narcissism which is different from simple conceit? Your attempts to continually normalize Trump's behavior suggest you are ignoring that little problem with your analysis.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Sociopathic narcissists are really good at running things, because they don't give a crap about people's feelings.

Haven't you read all the various articles on how CEOs and politicians all seem to exhibit sociopathic tendencies? It's not just some weird coincidence :)
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And they're really, really bad at running governments, because they don't give a crap about people's feelings. Haven't you read a history book?

Anyway, a narcissist's bloated ego isn't really the problem; it's the behavior he uses to protect what's really an extremely fragile ego, like pathological lying, and the vindictive rages that any offenses provoke.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Sociopathic narcissists are really good at running things, because they don't give a crap about people's feelings.

Haven't you read all the various articles on how CEOs and politicians all seem to exhibit sociopathic tendencies? It's not just some weird coincidence :)
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Being effective at upwards redistribution of wealth is not the particular talent we should want in a POTUS, tho. That's almost like saying "They make really good serial killers, and hey, war is hell, Dennis Rader 2020!"
 
WilliamSeger said:
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Anyway, a narcissist's bloated ego isn't really the problem; it's the behavior he uses to protect what's really an extremely fragile ego, like pathological lying, and the vindictive rages that any offenses provoke.
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And dangerous, reckless, impulsive behavior.
 
Really, "they're effective at being the worst people" is not a compelling argument.
 
theprestige said:
Their personality uniquely qualifies them to survive the campaign process and cope with the stresses of the job?

Our government institutions are robust enough that the effect of their personality doesn't actually matter all that much?

That which is not forbidden is permitted?

That last one is pretty good. We've gone almost 250 years without needing an "president unless you're crazy" clause in the Constitution. You want to change that now, show your working.

And by "show your working" I mean, cite the peer-reviewed research that justifies the change you're proposing. Again, the Yale group is long on hype and short on actual science.
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Of course, to be fair, its conceivable that Trump is removed by the 25th amendment, in which case he's not any example of that which isn't forbidden.

But at this point, it's a long shot, so your point more or less stands.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Been addressed multiple times. Trump falls way over on the pathologic end of the narcissism continuum.

You don't seem to get the distinction so let me ask you this: Do you not recognize there is such a thing as pathologic narcissism which is different from simple conceit?
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Of course. Do you recognize that people with narcissistic personality traits may not actually have NPD?
Your attempts to continually normalize Trump's behavior suggest you are ignoring that little problem with your analysis.
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This has nothing to do with normalizing his behavior. It has to do with the simple idea that professionals shouldn't be commenting on the mental state of public figures. It is irrelevant whether or not Trump's behavior is normal.
 
kellyb said:
Being effective at upwards redistribution of wealth is not the particular talent we should want in a POTUS, tho. That's almost like saying "They make really good serial killers, and hey, war is hell, Dennis Rader 2020!"
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This is a perfect example of why this is a political discussion and not a medical one.

Hillary Clinton has narcissistic personality traits. I disagree with her about her ideas for tax distribution; therefore, she must have NPD!

Pure politics disguised as real medicine.
 
WilliamSeger said:
And they're really, really bad at running governments, because they don't give a crap about people's feelings. Haven't you read a history book?

Anyway, a narcissist's bloated ego isn't really the problem; it's the behavior he uses to protect what's really an extremely fragile ego, like pathological lying, and the vindictive rages that any offenses provoke.
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Just about everyone who enters politics, a field that rewards narcissism, has narcissistic personality traits. Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Ronald Regan, FDR, JFK . . . on and on. They were all narcissists. This does not mean they were pathological.
 
kellyb said:
Is there evidence that's the case?


Same question.
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Hell if I know.

Does there need to be?

I think it's probably worthwhile to ask ourselves what kind of person does it take to be successful in our political process. If it takes a person like Donald Trump, then is Trump really the problem? If it takes a person like Donald Trump, then what do we make of all the other successful politicians? What I make of them is that they're people like Trump, except that they have learned to better conceal their selfishness and greed from the voting public.

Not that it matters. This is an argument that probably could be made, but it's not actually an argument I'm making. I'd be amused if it turned out to be true, though. Amused and depressed.

That's just a tautology.
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Well, there you go: NPD in presidential candidates is not forbidden; therefore it is permitted. What other argument do you need?
 
xjx388 said:
Just about everyone who enters politics, a field that rewards narcissism, has narcissistic personality traits.
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"Has traits" and "is a textbook case of the disorder" are two different things.
 
theprestige said:
Well, there you go: NPD in presidential candidates is not forbidden; therefore it is permitted. What other argument do you need?
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You're mixing up is and ought. Just because it currently is one way doesn't mean it has to stay that way, or should stay that way.
 
xjx388 said:
Just about everyone who enters politics, a field that rewards narcissism, has narcissistic personality traits. Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Ronald Regan, FDR, JFK . . . on and on. They were all narcissists. This does not mean they were pathological.
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I'm telling you, there's a Trump Event Horizon. Information about other presidencies does not actually reach us.
 
xjx388 said:
Of course. Do you recognize that people with narcissistic personality traits may not actually have NPD?
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Obviously.

So if you recognize there is a difference, why are you dismissing Trump's extreme narcissism just because he was born rich and has lots of women willing to bed him?

xjx388 said:
This has nothing to do with normalizing his behavior. [snipped goal shifting]
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Yes it does. You are finding all sorts of excuses why Trump might be normal and you are finding ways to dismiss those who disagree with you based on nothing to do with actually assessing his behavior and symptoms.

Ethics of public statements by professionals doesn't mean they aren't correct.

And the nonsense about needing an in-person exam has been thoroughly debunked in this thread, no one can say what needs to be done to confirm the diagnosis in this in-person visit.

So again those are not evidence based arguments against the diagnosis, those are complaints that you simply think people should not say publicly what they conclude from his behavior.
 
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theprestige said:
Doesn't mean it shouldn't, either. Anyway, the burden of proof is on you: Why should we change the status quo?
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Hey, I just asked what the argument for letting them be/stay in office was. If there isn't one outside of "it's your job to convince me that they have to go", I consider that an admission that there isn't a case.
 
xjx388 said:
Just about everyone who enters politics, a field that rewards narcissism, has narcissistic personality traits. Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Ronald Regan, FDR, JFK . . . on and on. They were all narcissists. This does not mean they were pathological.
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Nor does that mean Trump's narcissism isn't.
 
xjx388 said:
This is a perfect example of why this is a political discussion and not a medical one.

Hillary Clinton has narcissistic personality traits. I disagree with her about her ideas for tax distribution; therefore, she must have NPD!

Pure politics disguised as real medicine.
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Pure Dunning Kruger, dismissing the medical diagnosis you only read about but don't have a comprehensive understanding of.
 
kellyb said:
His grandiosity long predates his winning the election, though.
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Can you gauge, just from what you've been told by other people, how much his 'grandiosity' differs from that of other people who are also children of immense wealth and privilege, elite upbringings, and repeatedly successful businessmen?

The bigger question here is whether or not it's appropriate to consider it grandiosity in the first place... given that he has spent his whole life with a ridiculous amount of wealth, privilege, and success.

And important note here is that what I'm saying has nothing at all to do with whether or not any of us thinks he deserves his wealth, privilege, etc. And it has nothing to do with whether we think he's an enormous jerk, or a complete douche. It has only to do with whether or not someone can reasonably be said to have delusions of grandeur when they are arguably 'grand' in the sense of having all the trappings of actual grandeur.

:p It's not a paranoid delusion if they really are out to get you...
 
kellyb said:
Being effective at upwards redistribution of wealth is not the particular talent we should want in a POTUS, tho. That's almost like saying "They make really good serial killers, and hey, war is hell, Dennis Rader 2020!"
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I agree that it's not a talent we should want in ANY politician. It's not a talent that we should want in any CEO either... and yet, the tendency is disproportionately represented in those sorts of roles.

What we ought to want and what actually occurs are often quite different.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Can you gauge, just from what you've been told by other people, how much his 'grandiosity' differs from that of other people who are also children of immense wealth and privilege, elite upbringings, and repeatedly successful businessmen?
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Can you think of any peer of his with an equal level of grandiosity?

The bigger question here is whether or not it's appropriate to consider it grandiosity in the first place... given that he has spent his whole life with a ridiculous amount of wealth, privilege, and success.
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Again, the cause of it is irrelevant. Just because your life mimicked some intentionally pavlovian, NPD-creating simulation game resulting in the effect of grandiosity does not make you "not really a narcissist."

It has only to do with whether or not someone can reasonably be said to have delusions of grandeur when they are arguably 'grand' in the sense of having all the trappings of actual grandeur.
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He thinks he's more everything desirable than he is. His is not a reasonably healthy self esteem after all things are considered.
 
theprestige said:
I would hope it does, but I doubt it. I've been providing exactly that explanation for over a year now, but nobody seems to actually get it.
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Some people get it.

You know, in any other context, I generally consider myself to be on the left. On this forum, most posters don't even see me as centrist :( Which is saying something about the skew on this forum as compared to the distribution IRL.
 
Emily's Cat said:
On this forum, most posters don't even see me as centrist :( Which is saying something about the skew on this forum as compared to the distribution IRL.
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I blame all the Europeans lurking about, always reminding us Americans how freakishly rightwing we all are. :)
 
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