Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Beelzebuddy said:
I agree with Seth Abramson: that is a baldfaced lie. Trump is a dumbass, but he's smart enough not to walk into a perjury trap. There is no way in hell he'll "sit down with Mueller" except at the receiving end of a subpoena. It's all hot air so he can later fire Mueller and say he really wanted an interview, Mueller just wouldn't cooperate.
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I'm not too sure about this.
From what I gather, he's surrounded himself with "yes men/women". I'm not sure anybody has ever spoken truth to his "power".

If he's never been called out on the carpet for his bull-s, he might think he's a cool customer who could handle the likes of Mueller.


CapelDodger said:
I'm pretty much with Upchurch on this. I think it likely that Trump envisions an interview by Mueller as a confrontation in which he, Trump, will put Mueller on the spot somehow and emerge triumphant. Trump doesn't have to know precisely how he'll do that, he just needs the conviction that he'll produce the sort of brilliant Trumpian moves that have made his business career such an unparalleled success.
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I think Capel is more along my way of thinking that Trump has delusions
of grandeur about his abilities.
 
phiwum said:
Maybe, but I don't relish the effects on our nation.
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In comparison to the positive, uplifting effects that Trump is having on our nation right now? The global impact alone...

phiwum said:
If Trump is removed from office, the political poles will spread that much further apart. His diehard supporters will view this as a usurpation.
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Who cares? Trump is just going to whine "fake election" when he loses anyway. Guess what that will do? His die hard supporters are generally morons. There is no convincing them that what he does is wrong. Even if there is rock solid, indisputable evidence that he has committed crimes worthy of impeachment, his die hard fans won't believe it. Who seriously cares what they want?

phiwum said:
I genuinely hope that this isn't how Trump is removed from office. Better to wait for 2020 or clear evidence of malfeasance that has nothing to do with firing Mueller. And even the latter case has a real chance of encouraging division rather than unity.
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Accepting Trump firing Mueller because it might piss off his base is kind of a piss poor reason to not want it to happen. I don't care what his base wants, thinks or believes. If he fires Mueller, then action needs to be taken.
 
phiwum said:
If Trump is removed from office, the political poles will spread that much further apart.
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We're stuck in a positive feedback loop. And I suspect the U.S. has already crossed the point of no return.

The only thing that could put the brakes on our situation is an undeniable external threat. I'm talking an outright, physical (not cyber) attack by another nation. But no enemy of ours is going to interrupt us while we're destroying ourselves. Even North Korea is backing off, because since Trump was elected, we're doing all the work for them.
 
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plague311 said:
In comparison to the positive, uplifting effects that Trump is having on our nation right now? The global impact alone...



Who cares? Trump is just going to whine "fake election" when he loses anyway. Guess what that will do? His die hard supporters are generally morons. There is no convincing them that what he does is wrong. Even if there is rock solid, indisputable evidence that he has committed crimes worthy of impeachment, his die hard fans won't believe it. Who seriously cares what they want?



Accepting Trump firing Mueller because it might piss off his base is kind of a piss poor reason to not want it to happen. I don't care what his base wants, thinks or believes. If he fires Mueller, then action needs to be taken.
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I think you misunderstand me a little bit. If Trump actually removes Mueller, he should be impeached.

I hope he doesn't remove Mueller. I think that's the worst way his presidency would end, short of something like a first strike nuclear war or other terrible occurrence.

I can imagine an impeachment that is good for the nation. I can also say that if he removes Mueller, impeachment is better than the alternative. But I'd really rather not see the effects of his attempt to remove Mueller.
 
Cl1mh4224rd said:
We're stuck in a positive feedback loop. And I suspect the U.S. has already crossed the point of no return.

The only thing that could put the brakes on our situation is an undeniable external threat. I'm talking an outright, physical (not cyber) attack by another nation. But no enemy of ours is going to interrupt us while we're destroying ourselves. Even North Korea is backing off, because since Trump was elected, we're doing all the work for them.
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If only a giant alien squid would materialize in New York City, demolishing half the town, we'd be okay. Where's Ozymandias when you need him?
 
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CapelDodger said:
I'm pretty much with Upchurch on this. I think it likely that Trump envisions an interview by Mueller as a confrontation in which he, Trump, will put Mueller on the spot somehow and emerge triumphant. Trump doesn't have to know precisely how he'll do that, he just needs the conviction that he'll produce the sort of brilliant Trumpian moves that have made his business career such an unparalleled success.
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Yup, in his head he's already won the confrontation. He can't see things going any other way. He's the best remember.
 
phiwum said:
Maybe, but I don't relish the effects on our nation.

If Trump is removed from office, the political poles will spread that much further apart. His diehard supporters will view this as a usurpation.

I genuinely hope that this isn't how Trump is removed from office. Better to wait for 2020 or clear evidence of malfeasance that has nothing to do with firing Mueller. And even the latter case has a real chance of encouraging division rather than unity.
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That wouldn't make any difference.

No matter what the malfeasance was they would inevitably lie, cheat, character assassinate and "fake news" their way into duping their true believers exactly the same way that they have with Mueller and every single soul who works for, with, or near him, or has the temerity to support the investigation he was assigned to conduct.

This is what Trump and his cronies have always done when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, and it is what they will always do. That will never change.

Do you have some reason to believe that his supporters will react any differently when they do it some more?
 
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quadraginta said:
That wouldn't make any difference.

No matter what the malfeasance was they would inevitably lie, cheat, character assassinate and "fake news" their way into duping their true believers exactly the same way that they have with Mueller and every single soul who works for, with, or near him, or has the temerity to support the investigation he was assigned to conduct.

This is what Trump and his cronies have always done when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, and it is what they will always do. That will never change.

Do you have some reason to believe that his supporters will react any differently when they do it some more?
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Not much reason, I'm afraid, but those who are in the fence may be persuaded by clear evidence.

Even my family members, who are unapologetic in claiming that Trump is better than Hillary, are willing to admit that some of the things he's done are terrible (like the way McCabe was fired). I'd like to think that if there was clear evidence of money laundering, say, with reason to believe that it's tied to his treatment of Russia, they'd accept his removal.

I'm less optimistic that they would do so regarding obstruction charges after removing Mueller.

Any removal prior to the 2020 election is bound to be difficult, short of his voluntary resignation. And even then, it's iffy.
 
phiwum said:
Not much reason, I'm afraid, but those who are in the fence may be persuaded by clear evidence.

Even my family members, who are unapologetic in claiming that Trump is better than Hillary, are willing to admit that some of the things he's done are terrible (like the way McCabe was fired). I'd like to think that if there was clear evidence of money laundering, say, with reason to believe that it's tied to his treatment of Russia, they'd accept his removal.

I'm less optimistic that they would do so regarding obstruction charges after removing Mueller.

Any removal prior to the 2020 election is bound to be difficult, short of his voluntary resignation. And even then, it's iffy.
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You say that like it's a bad thing.

The GOP needs to be hung out to dry. That would be a good thing.

A shake-up, with all of the slimy, corrupt, self-serving venality of their actions spread wide open for the entire country to see. In court.

I hope it is the end of the party. They have sacrificed any right to take part in governance after the clear demonstration of their total lack of ethics or morals has been so evident in their support of Trump and all he represents. They are irredeemable.

Trump needs to go down. In flames. The messier the better. The more of his cronies and supporters he takes down with him the better.

Letting him squeeze his way out by losing (or dodging) an election will only signal other equally opportunistic crooks to try to emulate him.

That would be a bad thing.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
It's being reported that Mueller has been investigating the relationship between the Trump team and Cambridge Analytica for the last few weeks
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The Trump campaign has said they never used data from Cambridge Analytica.
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Which means, of course, that they used such data heavily, and we can expect a follow-up statement from them in the not-too-distant future asserting that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the Trump campaign using data from Cambridge Analytica.
 
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logger said:
Lol

Certainly in his scope of investigation.
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I agree that Mueller will have to demonstrate how CA fits in the campaign/Russia connection.
Skeptics of the investigation should insist on the results being published (like the Starr report) to make sure that Mueller didn't exceed his mandate.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I agree that Mueller will have to demonstrate how CA fits in the campaign/Russia connection.
Skeptics of the investigation should insist on the results being published (like the Starr report) to make sure that Mueller didn't exceed his mandate.
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He has no mandate, he’s able to go wherever he wants.
 
Crossbow said:
You are wrong again.
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It's not so much him personally that's wrong; while it's been played with before, really in the last week this erroneous idea that the Mueller investigation is somehow legally invalid because it is "not narrowly-focused enough" has become a major Trump-cult talking point. To me it seems to be an attempt to de-legitimize the fact that the investigation has resulted in 22 felony indictments and five guilty pleas so far - itself a rather solid rebuttal of the common refrain that the investigation has "found nothing".
 
Checkmite said:
To me it seems to be an attempt to de-legitimize the fact that the investigation has resulted in 22 felony indictments and five guilty pleas so far - itself a rather solid rebuttal of the common refrain that the investigation has "found nothing".
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3 guilty pleas.
 
Checkmite said:
It's not so much him personally that's wrong; while it's been played with before, really in the last week this erroneous idea that the Mueller investigation is somehow legally invalid because it is "not narrowly-focused enough" has become a major Trump-cult talking point. To me it seems to be an attempt to de-legitimize the fact that the investigation has resulted in 22 felony indictments and five guilty pleas so far - itself a rather solid rebuttal of the common refrain that the investigation has "found nothing".
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And nothing to do with Russian Collusion.

And once this FBI/DOJ scandal unfolds, I’m convinced Flynn’s plea will be history, maybe even Manafort and Gates.
 
The word "collusion" has no legally-applicable definition in this case. Instead we should be using words like "collaboration" and "treason".
 
quadraginta said:
​

Which means, of course, that they used such data heavily, and we can expect a follow-up statement from them in the not-too-distant future asserting that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the Trump campaign using data from Cambridge Analytica.
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They are all liars, the whole bunch of them. CA has been claiming recently they didn't use any of the FB data during the 2016 election.

They're not credible at all.
 
Steve said:
How much more divided do you think you can get?
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Civil war? Though I am not sure how much clear evidence of malfeases would matter, his supporters have already been fully primed to ignore what ever facts he tells them to ignore.
 
https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/978817430368768000

NBC News: In a court filing tonight in the Special Counsel's case against Alex van der Zwaan it identifies a Person A (an associate of Paul Manafort) as having ties to the Russian intelligence service, GRU, in 2016 when Rick Gates was in contact with Person A.
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https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/978823498662588416

Mueller's office says FBI agents determined that a person who worked with Manafort and Gates "has ties to a Russian intelligence service." He told Van Der Zwaan that he was a former GRU intelligence officer.
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https://twitter.com/AriMelber/status/978828050342215680

This new Mueller filing says Trump’s campaign chair *and* deputy campaign manager *knew* their associate was a former Russian intelligence officer. As they say in court, Um.
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