Cops kill unarmed 22 yr old, turn audio off their body cams

fuelair said:
Can you possibly tell the difference between pointing out that creating a big problem for people trying to get to work/shopping, school, etc. is not at all the same as saying the blockers should all be shot/assaulted.????? Just curious.
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So when is it ok to block traffic to protest the deaths of black men and when is it not? And you are generally very pro shooting and assaulting people who do things that upset you like block traffic. Why aren't you naturally on the side of the cops on bloody sunday?
 
Craig4 said:
But he had no gun so the belief could not be reasonable.
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Not that I think the shooting was justified, but by your standard cops cannot act unless they have perfect information. That's just another unreasonable standard. Someone can have a reasonable belief even if it turns out wrong. That's been pretty much the legal standard everywhere civilised for a while now.
 
fuelair said:
Can you possibly tell the difference between pointing out that creating a big problem for people trying to get to work/shopping, school, etc. is not at all the same as saying the blockers should all be shot/assaulted.????? Just curious.
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Yeah, next time you want to protest the execution of black people, do it in a way that it doesn't inconvenience anyone on their way to shopping. Those people have important stuff to do, don't you know, and don't deserve to have their schedules disrupted by you annoying protests.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, next time you want to protest the execution of black people, do it in a way that it doesn't inconvenience anyone on their way to shopping. Those people have important stuff to do, don't you know, and don't deserve to have their schedules disrupted by you annoying protests.
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But famous historic protests of black deaths are totally not counted in this for some reason.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, next time you want to protest the execution of black people, do it in a way that it doesn't inconvenience anyone on their way to shopping. Those people have important stuff to do, don't you know, and don't deserve to have their schedules disrupted by you annoying protests.
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It's quite clear by now that nothing is going to make the average white citizen care about police murdering minorities, so why bother, eh? They clearly care more about their conveniences than they do about human lives not their own.
 
luchog said:
It's quite clear by now that nothing is going to make the average white citizen care about police murdering minorities, so why bother, eh? They clearly care more about their conveniences than they do about human lives not their own.
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The best approach in this situation...would be to cause as much disruption as possible.

For reference, I knew damn well that I wouldn't get an answer to the simple question of what sort of protest would be most effective. And that's because the simple facts lead directly to the answer. If you're against violence in general, then nonviolent protest is the best possible solution. The status quo is wholly unacceptable, burning buildings and beating white people in the street is itself violent.

"But you're disrupting my shopping trip!" Yes, that's the point. Want it to stop? Help fix the problem.
 
Mumbles said:
The best approach in this situation...would be to cause as much disruption as possible.

For reference, I knew damn well that I wouldn't get an answer to the simple question of what sort of protest would be most effective. And that's because the simple facts lead directly to the answer. If you're against violence in general, then nonviolent protest is the best possible solution. The status quo is wholly unacceptable, burning buildings and beating white people in the street is itself violent.

"But you're disrupting my shopping trip!" Yes, that's the point. Want it to stop? Help fix the problem.
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Maybe he doesn't consider the US 80 to be a major transportation route?
 
ponderingturtle said:
So when is it ok to block traffic to protest the deaths of black men and when is it not? And you are generally very pro shooting and assaulting people who do things that upset you like block traffic. Why aren't you naturally on the side of the cops on bloody sunday?
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It should never be ok to protest by blocking the movement of people and it does tend to make me annoyed even when it is for an idea I support. Freedom of movement is a functional right and no one should be denied it. I have never supported shooting at, throwing tear gas grenades or related to break up such (except for the idjits who blocked access to a number of finance/banking conferences or blocked access to clinics offering abortions where I was fine with the tear gassing but not shooting). As a secondary point I would love to see surveys of people whose travel was blocked by such as to the attitudes on the item before and after the blocking of functional movement.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, next time you want to protest the execution of black people, do it in a way that it doesn't inconvenience anyone on their way to shopping. Those people have important stuff to do, don't you know, and don't deserve to have their schedules disrupted by you annoying protests.
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At the risk of going backwards and moving this under my last post, unless the people they are stopping the movement of are really, really concerned about the specific problem psychologically it is not going to help the cause, but much more likely to reduce the concern of the blocked for the situation. Not to mention that the problems for the blocked can result in a large number of difficulties: missed job start time, missed doctor appointments, missed appointments for job interviews, missed getting to court for trial/jury duty/etc., (I trust you are getting the drift - the people being blocked are not likely to have a strong opinion re: the problem that is being blocked over and are very likely to support same even less due to the blocking (Psychology 101/ Advertising 101).
 
fuelair said:
It should never be ok to protest by blocking the movement of people and it does tend to make me annoyed even when it is for an idea I support. Freedom of movement is a functional right and no one should be denied it. I have never supported shooting at, throwing tear gas grenades or related to break up such (except for the idjits who blocked access to a number of finance/banking conferences or blocked access to clinics offering abortions where I was fine with the tear gassing but not shooting). As a secondary point I would love to see surveys of people whose travel was blocked by such as to the attitudes on the item before and after the blocking of functional movement.
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So why are you so supporting of the illegal blocking of traffic by Dr. King in his Selma march? Clearly there would have been far better ways to protest than that criminal act.
 
fuelair said:
At the risk of going backwards and moving this under my last post, unless the people they are stopping the movement of are really, really concerned about the specific problem psychologically it is not going to help the cause, but much more likely to reduce the concern of the blocked for the situation. Not to mention that the problems for the blocked can result in a large number of difficulties: missed job start time, missed doctor appointments, missed appointments for job interviews, missed getting to court for trial/jury duty/etc., (I trust you are getting the drift - the people being blocked are not likely to have a strong opinion re: the problem that is being blocked over and are very likely to support same even less due to the blocking (Psychology 101/ Advertising 101).
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Yes, we are all sorry that the protest against black people being killed is an inconvenience to others.

Instead of getting mad at the people complaining about black people getting killed, why not complain about the ones doing the killing?

Or, more helpfully, do something useful yourself to help it stop?

But don't let it interfere with your doctor appointment, of course.
 
It's an odd thing that people really don't mind a protest to draw attention to an issue, just as long as they're not actually forced to notice it in any way.

"We don't mind you protesting as long as nothing in my life actually changes and I can ignore both the protest and the issue" is an odd attitude, I think.
 
fuelair said:
Which is fine IF it bothers mostly the people who caused the problem (i.e. surround the police department( including branches)).
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Well no. Those people aren't the ones who can effect change. They probably don't want to.

What effects change is 10,000 people writing to their representative and saying 'I couldn't get to work in the morning because of these damn protests, what are you going to do about it?'

(Because people are far more likely to write to their representative about massive traffic problems than they are de-facto executions in the street.)
 
fuelair said:
Which is fine IF it bothers mostly the people who caused the problem (i.e. surround the police department( including branches)).
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Yeah, police killing black people is not your problem. Why should you have to deal with those protesters?

Or, maybe, you might want to think that police killing black people is a problem for you, too?

Perhaps the protesters think that your failure to step up and take a stand against it is a problem for them?

How about that? Instead of complaining about them being in the way, why not get out of the car and join in? You agree with them, right?
 
ponderingturtle said:
So when is it ok to block traffic to protest the deaths of black men and when is it not? And you are generally very pro shooting and assaulting people who do things that upset you like block traffic. Why aren't you naturally on the side of the cops on bloody sunday?
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It is never OK for protesters to block traffic to protest anything. Not even the deaths of black men. I've heard that some states are considering exempting drivers who plow through road blocking protesters from liability for their actions. I think that's BS. If protesters are blocking a road and a driver decides to plow through the protesters and severely injures or kills one or more of them, the other protesters blocking traffic should be charged with murder/attempted murder and the driver should be able to sue the injured and/or deceased protesters for damage to his vehicle.

This should happen every time protesters shut down a road without a permit.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
It is never OK for protesters to block traffic to protest anything. Not even the deaths of black men. I've heard that some states are considering exempting drivers who plow through road blocking protesters from liability for their actions. I think that's BS. If protesters are blocking a road and a driver decides to plow through the protesters and severely injures or kills one or more of them, the other protesters blocking traffic should be charged with murder/attempted murder and the driver should be able to sue the injured and/or deceased protesters for damage to his vehicle.

This should happen every time protesters shut down a road without a permit.
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Yeah... that's insane.
 
It's not every day that someone overtly advocates slaughtering people on here.

Jesus.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
And totally unworkable. But if we demand the extreme we might be able to achieve something that stops crazies from disrupting traffic.
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Actually, you're just pushing people to side with protesters even more.
 
Blocking traffic is is only going to irritate the few people that are inconvenienced. I don't think any hearts and minds will be swayed. A massive line of protesters alongside the roads, peacefully gathered and holding signs, allowing traffic to pass may be a better way to spread a message.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
And totally unworkable. But if we demand the extreme we might be able to achieve something that stops crazies from disrupting traffic.
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Maybe, and this is just me spitballing here, but just maybe if we trained cops not to shoot unarmed people of color as soon as they can train a bead on them with some "reasonable fear" and then to maybe not continue firing until they can no longer pull the trigger, maybe, and again I'm not certain this will work, so just maybe, we won't have so many traffic disruptions.

I know, it feels a bit like giving in to a demanding child, but maybe we shouldn't think of our fellow citizens who see their brothers and sons killed for such flimsy reasons as demanding children. Maybe we should consider that they have a point and we could do better.

I mean, if you really do care about reducing the traffic disporting nature of such marches, it does seem that there may just be a solution that you could work on that doesn't include mowing them down like snowmen.
 
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CaptainHowdy said:
And totally unworkable. But if we demand the extreme we might be able to achieve something that stops crazies from disrupting traffic.
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Why do you condemn the extreme actions of the protestors, but then advocate for even more extreme actions to thwart them?
 
Dr. Keith said:
Maybe, and this is just me spitballing here, but just maybe if we trained cops not to shoot unarmed people of color as soon as they can train a bead on them with some "reasonable fear" and then to maybe not continue firing until they can no longer pull the trigger, maybe, and again I'm not certain this will work, so just maybe, we won't have so many traffic disruptions.

I know, it feels a bit like giving in to a demanding child, but maybe we shouldn't think of our fellow citizens who see their brothers and sons killed for such flimsy reasons as demanding children. Maybe we should consider that they have a point and we could do better.

I mean, if you really do care about reducing the traffic disporting nature of such marches, it does seem that there may just be a solution that you could work on that doesn't include mowing them down like snowmen.
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Wait... you run over snowmen with your car?

Monster.
 
Dr. Keith said:
Maybe, and this is just me spitballing here, but just maybe if we trained cops not to shoot unarmed people of color as soon as they can train a bead on them with some "reasonable fear" and then to maybe not continue firing until they can no longer pull the trigger, maybe, and again I'm not certain this will work, so just maybe, we won't have so many traffic disruptions.

I know, it feels a bit like giving in to a demanding child, but maybe we shouldn't think of our fellow citizens who see their brothers and sons killed for such flimsy reasons as demanding children. Maybe we should consider that they have a point and we could do better.

I mean, if you really do care about reducing the traffic disporting nature of such marches, it does seem that there may just be a solution that you could work on that doesn't include mowing them down like snowmen.
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I think that the problem is in the assumption that Jim Crow was unjust.
 
Brainster said:
Here's an interesting detail about the cops turning off the audio:



Seven minutes after Clark was shot they started plotting the cover-up? No way. I suspect that the cop who told them to shut off the audio was a union rep.
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I wouldn't be surprised. However I don't think that is a good excuse.

Justice needs to be transparent. And cop unions need to behave more like professional bodies that support their members but also promote the reputation of their job by disowning those who are negligent.
 
I can't help but wonder about the legality of blocking traffic on the video cited in 144 by CaptainHowdy. Could this be considered an unlawful arrest by a citizen? To make a citizen who has no responsibility towards this cause and, perhaps, no interest in said cause, to be halted on a public street with no means of exit?

This is, IMHO, the biggest problem with these particular demonstrations. The protesters are pissing off a portion of the populace that they are trying to convince. Random Joe may not care about the protest, but surely won't side with it after some of these incidents. In fact, hypothetically, there could be repercussions to the individual held up in these protests: what if they were late for a shift and were fired? Who bares the responsibility? Does anyone think that will convince that particular inconvenienced party to be more civilly responsible or can we admit that there could be some bitterness towards the movement itself?

Protest in public locations to raise awareness, but don't restrict the freedom of others. If you do so, you may be undermining your own cause in creating a public backlash. Be reasonable and discuss these issues with others to try to convince them through educated discourse. Of course, some may never be convince, regardless of your rallying cry. But these parties were never your target anyhow.

I am on the fence about where the limits should be drawn. But limited the free movement of the public in society doesn't seem particular rational or helpful to a cause.
 
ponderingturtle said:
No, really it pretty much is everyday.
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And once again, I want you to cite the particular post from anyone on here advocating this. QUOTE IT. I will stand behind you in condemning that person. But if you can't, I will ask you to retract this statement as being hyperbolic and hateful.
 
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