Is criticism of Israel antisemitic?

Information Analyst said:
On the other hand, the fact that Depo-Provera was infamous as a tool of genocide by the Indonesians in East Timor, you would think that these apparently uncoordinated individual Israeli healthcare workers absolutely not working together might have been a bit less clueless.
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This is the first I've heard of Indonesians attempting genocide of East Timorans using Depo-Provera, and checking the Wikipedia page on the East Timor genocide, it seems that the Depo-Provera issue is a minor issue among much more serious issues such as East Timorans being killed outright by Indonesians by the tens of thousands.

If you have something to say about the coordination of Israeli healthcare workers, then the onus is on you to provide evidence. Absent such evidence, your innuendo is nothing more than you showing us how nasty you can be.

ponderingturtle said:
I am sure we will hear how that was totally not a thing either.
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Wrong again. What happened in East Timor neither proves or refutes anything that may have happened in Israel.

If you're making a claim it's up to you to provide evidence for that claim. Making up straw-man arguments about whether Jews can be racist or not is not providing evidence, nor is noting unrelated events in Tuskegee or East Timor. If you have evidence then provide it. The onus is not on me to disprove what has not been proven.
 
I think we have a clear answer in this thread, that is maybe yes and maybe no, but there are always those who will use it to deflect any criticism.
 
nota said:
no you are wrong
a mislabel is a mislabel even if you site history
and using race based labels for religion is misleading aka fake news
even if it is old fake news
skeptic's should not go along with fake news or apologies for it : jaw-dropp
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English does not appear to be your first language. You may want to consider that you don't really know much about English figures of speech.
 
Mycroft said:
Wrong again. What happened in East Timor neither proves or refutes anything that may have happened in Israel.

If you're making a claim it's up to you to provide evidence for that claim. Making up straw-man arguments about whether Jews can be racist or not is not providing evidence, nor is noting unrelated events in Tuskegee or East Timor. If you have evidence then provide it. The onus is not on me to disprove what has not been proven.
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Yea that would be like thinking they are as bad as americans!

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/07/06/archives/hew-head-curbs-sterilization-aid-he-bars-federal-funds-for.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftimesmachine.nytimes.com%2Ftimesmachine%2F1973%2F07%2F06%2F99154577.html
 
nota said:
?????????????

no truthers see 9-11 as an inside job
not a saudi funded and lead attack

more mislabels : jaw-dropp
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Truthers include many factions with many conspiracy theories - some even combine two or more contradictory theories! Everything from LIHOP to MIHOP, with varying degrees of collusion between real and imaginary entities.

Again, you may want to consider that you don't know as much as you think you know, about English figures of speech.
 
Ziggurat said:
Sure, you can. But there's an obvious pattern. And the pattern means something, even if not everything fits the pattern. Is that actually in doubt?
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The issue I have with that is that because of this any criticism of Israel is taken as anti-semitism without discussion because it's assumed to hide that sentiment, so it becomes difficult to discuss that country's policies.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Yea that would be like thinking they are as bad as americans!

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/07/06/archives/hew-head-curbs-sterilization-aid-he-bars-federal-funds-for.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftimesmachine.nytimes.com%2Ftimesmachine%2F1973%2F07%2F06%2F99154577.html
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Again, something that happened in the United States is not evidence that anything happened in Israel.

Bring up project MKUltra next. It still won't be evidence of your allegations, but tradition, right?
 
post attack they jailed and tried him so yes they got involved

other then that NO NOT MUCH

but you get a dumb post award for trying a strawman diversion
 
nota said:
post attack they jailed and tried him so yes they got involved

other then that NO NOT MUCH

but you get a dumb post award for trying a strawman diversion
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It sounds like a criminal's nationality is not actually a reliable indicator of their government's involvement in their crimes.

Would you like to retry your claim about the Saudis and Osama bin Laden?
 
theprestige said:
It sounds like a criminal's nationality is not actually a reliable indicator of their government's involvement in their crimes.

Would you like to retry your claim about the Saudis and Osama bin Laden?
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no because it is directly from their screwed up state/religion's world view
funded not just by ben forgotten but reportedly from many high officials also
and 15+ people is not equal to one lone nut esp when supported by state dogma with leadership and funding also all from the same place
aka a real conspiracy not a fake news story like iraq was
 
Belz... said:
The issue I have with that is that because of this any criticism of Israel is taken as anti-semitism without discussion because it's assumed to hide that sentiment, so it becomes difficult to discuss that country's policies.
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My experience is that the crazy drowns out the rational. If you want to criticize Israel by saying something like, Israel desperately needs a civil marriage law or Israel was crazy to bomb the crap out of all of Lebanon just because Hezbollah kidnapped a few soldiers or more recently, Israel should grant asylum to those 40,000 immigrants rather than deporting them then nobody is likely to call you an anti-Semite for it. Also, the discussion probably won’t last very long because you may not find anyone who disagrees with you.

But the typical discussion begins with someone making a pronouncement that Israel is evil, and then saying something that “proves” just how evil Israel is. This is followed by someone like myself who points out that their “facts” are incorrect, out of context, missing details etc. The rational discussion falls by the wayside.

This is what distinguishes the vast majority of criticism of Israel from criticisms of other nations, when other nations are criticized it typically policy specific. If you’re criticizing Greece, Canada, Venezuela or other nations, it will be, this policy produces a bad result, a better result would be achieved by changing the policy to X…
 
Mycroft said:
My experience is that the crazy drowns out the rational.
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Maybe but if posters assume that if I say "I disagree with Israel's policy on X" that I'm still going to be assumed to be an anti-semite. It effectively shuts down criticism, which I guess serves Israel just fine.
 
I really haven't seen much evidence of criticism of the Israeli government attracting criticism for anti-Semitism. So when the likes of George Galloway protest that he is just speaking out against the Israeli government, then calls for Bradford to be an Israeli tourist -free zone, we all know he's casting his net a little wider. (That's leaving aside the crazy speculation that any Israeli tourist, or indeed any tourist at all, would voluntarily visit Bradford).
 
ponderingturtle said:
I think we have a clear answer in this thread, that is maybe yes and maybe no, but there are always those who will use it to deflect any criticism.
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Your argument failed for lack of evidence, not from any deflection.
 
Belz... said:
That's not what baron said. He said he's seen no evidence that criticising Israel bring forth those accusations. Do you agree?
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If the criticism is bat-**** crazy, then it wouldn’t be surprising if someone were to assume it was motivated by anti-Semitism and call them out on it, so from a literalist point of view, sure, some criticisms certainly draw accusations of anti-Semitism.

On the other hand, if the criticism were reasonable, this policy is bad, that policy would produce better results… then I think Baron is correct. It’s not just any criticism, it’s the type and nature of the criticism.

It’s also my experience that those who wage propaganda campaigns against Israel complain about being called anti-Semites way more often than they’re actually called anti-Semites. You can’t prove someone’s viewpoint is motivated by bigotry because nobody can read minds, but you can prove bias, distortion, lack of evidence, etc.
 
Mycroft said:
If the criticism is bat-**** crazy, then it wouldn’t be surprising if someone were to assume it was motivated by anti-Semitism and call them out on it, so from a literalist point of view, sure, some criticisms certainly draw accusations of anti-Semitism.
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Please stop that. Stop assuming that only batcrap crazy opinions get labeled that way. It isn't true. Hell, even on this forum, perfectly reasonable criticism of Israel gets pounced on and derided.
 
Belz... said:
That's not what baron said. He said he's seen no evidence that criticising Israel bring forth those accusations.
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Actually I didn't, I said I hadn't seen much, which implies that I have seen some.
 
Belz... said:
Please stop that. Stop assuming that only batcrap crazy opinions get labeled that way. It isn't true. Hell, even on this forum, perfectly reasonable criticism of Israel gets pounced on and derided.
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I relate what my experience is. If your experience is different, then maybe one of us has a perceptional issue. If you really think this happens all the time and happens on the ISF, then maybe cite some examples.
 
Mycroft said:
I relate what my experience is. If your experience is different, then maybe one of us has a perceptional issue. If you really think this happens all the time and happens on the ISF, then maybe cite some examples.
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I'll point them out to you if I see them but 1) I rarely participate in Israel-related threads anymore because of this and 2) I don't know how I'd go about searching for cites without spending time on this that I'm not willing to spend, being lazy and all.

Until then we'll have to chalk it up to either different perceptions or different experiences.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
That about sums it up.
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Yes, there are people whose reason for criticizing Israel is anti-Semitism, but at the same time there are those who use accusations of anti-Semitism as a way of deflecting debate about Israel's policies. The result is its all but impossible to have any rational debate about Israel and Middle-East politics without it descending into accusations and counter-accusations.
 
Tinfoil Hater said:
A touchy topic to be sure, but an earnest question. As I understand it those who believe God gave the Jews the land of Israel are using a religious interpretation. I'm an atheist so I don't think there is a God to give land to anyone . Yet are atheists expected to recognize that claim of God given land? I personally believe that the Palestinians have been treated like 3rd class citizens. Yet to question that God gave the Jews the land of Israel ( I don't believe in God) and to feel the Palestinians should have equal rights- I have been called an anti Semite. Some Jewish critice of Israeli policy (Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky) have been called anitsemites simply for criticizing the Israeli government. . I always thought the creation of Israel was an artificial construct created out of the British Mandate of Palestine at the end of WW2

When is criticism of Israel valid, and when is it antisemitism?
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Judging by the ADL being apoplectic this week over Netanyahu's going back on his word on the African migrant deal, I'd so no, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Israel is a nation state and therefore subject to criticisms of its politics and policies. Jews are a religious and/or ethnic group the members of which (like any such group) should not be generalized for criticism. You can say you don't like what a nation state does and not be a bigot.
 
Is criticism of Israel antisemitic?

Depends on words chosen and what is being said with them.
 
Here is a definition.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017...wspaper-at-uc-berkeley-deserves-response.html

Yes, anti-Semitic. Let me explain why. I agree that there is a vast difference between “actual anti-Semitism” and “legitimate criticism of Israel.” But Taylor is not merely criticizing Israel. He is deliberately lying about its actions and policies in order to delegitimize its very existence.

Taylor is singling out only the nation-state of the Jewish people for such defamatory delegitimization, and he is invoking the crassly anti-Semitic libel of “pinkwashing.” Finally, he uses code words – such as “privileged” and “Israel’s apologists” – to suggest a conspiracy of Jewish power that censors anti-Israel expression.
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It seems that defamation is a key aspect. Does that mean that one can use the truth even if it is a rather harsh reflection on Israel?

And if one pointed out that certain policies of Israel are derived from the religion of Judaism would that make criticism off-limits? Even if true?

"Code words" is a new one to me. Implying meaning that might or might not be there?
 
Netanyahu was quoted as publicly saying in 2002 that Saddam Hussein was definitely making a nuclear bomb in 2002. That has turned out to be patently untrue. There is a rumour that the Shah of Iran had a policy of going nuclear when he was in power. There is no evidence at all that Iran has broken any nuclear agreement as Pompeo and John Bolton and Trump seem to believe.

Israel seems to think that just having a very efficient Jewish army and air force and launching aggressive war against the Arabs and Iran, and dragging in America and Nato, that its national security will be safe forever. It's against international law which most Americans know nothing about, and very unfair on Arabs who protest about it, and then are shot dead. It's just a policy of endless war and genocide. I fully appreciate that the Arabs have always wanted to dump Israel in the sea, but that's not being anti-Semitic.

There is a group called combatants for peace which comprises of an Israeli woman whose Israeli army son was killed, and a Palestinian who was tortured in an Israeli prison as a teenager, and whose nine year old daughter was killed by the Israeli army. There may be some hope in that.
 
Is criticism of Israel antisemitic?

It all depends on the content and context of the criticism.

Just as criticism of Germany, Britian, France and Spain can be racist.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Here is a definition.




It seems that defamation is a key aspect. Does that mean that one can use the truth even if it is a rather harsh reflection on Israel?
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Yes. Truth is never anti-Semitic.

And if one pointed out that certain policies of Israel are derived from the religion of Judaism would that make criticism off-limits? Even if true?
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No. See above. One can criticize Israel without being anti-Semitic and one can criticize Jews and Judaism without being anti-Semitic as well.

"Code words" is a new one to me. Implying meaning that might or might not be there?
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Yes.
 
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