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Hellstorm - WW2 Crimes of the "Good Guys"

Henri McPhee said:
The Germans are either at your feet or at your throat.
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....oh my ANOTHER thing Henri is ignorant about. I worked and lived in Germany for four years and for twenty+ years worked with German businessmen and archaeologists/academics in the Middle East.

That is a really poor stereotype applied with a far too wide brush.

...but then its you so that is to be expected.....
 
There is an interesting article about all this on the internet about the American General Patton, which I agree may not be entirely true. I can't quite see why no public criticism at all is allowed of MI5 on this forum, but it could be something to do with the rewriting of the pure unadulterated historical truth, so that we spend all our time discussing Mary Berry's controversial recipe for Italian sauce:

http://www.renegadetribune.com/patton-assassinated-suppress-criticism-post-war-policy/

It has been said that the Russians have a sense of humour, unlike the Germans.
 
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Any sufficiently large group of people is basically just the same, almost all of them are annoying idiots but a few are ok.
 
Henri McPhee said:
There is a bit about the German sense of humour at this website:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/8560815/Germany-officially-the-worlds-least-funny-country.html
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You realize that the country that brought us Mr. Bean and Monty Python came fourth in the list of "least witty countries"? Oh, and when they wrote:
But defenders of German comedy insist the stereotype is unfair and the structure of the language means many jokes from the English language do not translate easily.
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they ruined one of the most memorable Python sketches.

(and that brings us back on track to the thread topic)
 
HansMustermann said:
Mate, frankly, where the hell do you think the allied industry was located? Do you think that, unlike those vile Nazis, anyone was carefully building their factories 2 miles from the city limit, or WTH?

Have you checked out for example where the Chrysler arsenal in Michigan that made M3 and M4 tanks was located, for example? Hint, it's better known as the "Detroit Arsenal (Warren, Michigan)", because it's smack dab in Warren, the biggest suburb of Detroit. And that's a factory expressly built for making tanks. The ones that were converted mid-war, nobody moved outside the city they were in.

So, please. I'm not defending the Nazis, but it's silly to pretend it's some Nazi grand plot to hide behind civilians. EVERYONE placed their factories close to where they expected their workers to live. Chiefly because you couldn't expect everyone to have a car in the 30's like you have now, public transportation sucked, etc. The whole of western Europe didn't have NEARLY enough fuel for any the of that. And a lot of factories had even been built long before the 30's.

And in fact when the Nazis did built a factory from the ground up -- as in, actually built from a government initiative, as opposed to wherever the hell Krupp or Opel happened to have built their private factories -- look up Volkswagen. It was actually built a couple of miles from the nearby town of Fallersleben. Mostly because the town didn't want to pay a part of the costs, mind you. But still, one way or another, is was actually built by the NAZIS away from populated areas. The later town of Wolfsburg grew around the factory, rather than the factory being built in the middle of a town as some evil Nazi plot.
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Minor technical. The Nazi's could not get close enough to US cities to do jack ****. The US and related could get close enough to German cities - but Germany MIGHT have saved a lot of their civilians had they built and run stuff from outside the towns/cities by a bit.................
 
I used an US example, but I could have just as well used the UK. Manchester was nearly raised when the Germans tried to bomb its industry, which happened to be located in the middle of the frikken city. Thing is, the Luftwaffe actually dropped flares first to mark the industrial targets... and then they couldn't aim worth **** anyway.

The same applies to France, the USSR, whatever. Guess what was one location they fought bitterly over at Stalingrad for example? Yeah, the ol' tractor factory, which in the meantime was producing tanks. Guess what they produced right in the middle of Leningrad during the siege? Yeah, submachineguns.

But either way, the point is that it wasn't some sneaky Nazi plot. It was what EVERYONE was doing. You needed workers in your factories, and it wasn't today's world, where everyone and their dog has a car.
 
HansMustermann said:
I used an US example, but I could have just as well used the UK. Manchester was nearly raised when the Germans tried to bomb its industry, which happened to be located in the middle of the frikken city. Thing is, the Luftwaffe actually dropped flares first to mark the industrial targets... and then they couldn't aim worth **** anyway.

The same applies to France, the USSR, whatever. Guess what was one location they fought bitterly over at Stalingrad for example? Yeah, the ol' tractor factory, which in the meantime was producing tanks. Guess what they produced right in the middle of Leningrad during the siege? Yeah, submachineguns.

But either way, the point is that it wasn't some sneaky Nazi plot. It was what EVERYONE was doing. You needed workers in your factories, and it wasn't today's world, where everyone and their dog has a car.
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Even if they did, the UK had petrol rationing and thanks to your illuminating posts on the competence of the Nazi's - I know that the German oil situation was far worse. Having massive numbers of car commuters wouldn't exactly relieve that pressure.
 
jimbob said:
Even if they did, the UK had petrol rationing and thanks to your illuminating posts on the competence of the Nazi's - I know that the German oil situation was far worse. Having massive numbers of car commuters wouldn't exactly relieve that pressure.
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Well the Nazi's came up with a simple solution, they built their factories away from the cities later in the war and used concentration camp inmates and 'guest' labour. This did away with issues like transport, or feeding the workers...
 
During WW2 the US armed forces set up an imitation of a typical German home in Utah. Houses were created using the same or similar material as those found in Germany. They were then subject to aerial attack with incendiaries (fire bombs) the objective being to find out the best way to set German homes on fire and kill the maximum number of occupants - https://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf Therefore the US Air Force was deliberately targeting civilians when at the Nuremberg Tribunal the American prosecution themselves stated that this was a war crime - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053 If there is a Part 2 of Hellstorm they should include this info - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
 
Mondial said:
During WW2 the US armed forces set up an imitation of a typical German home in Utah. Houses were created using the same or similar material as those found in Germany. They were then subject to aerial attack with incendiaries (fire bombs) the objective being to find out the best way to set German homes on fire and kill the maximum number of occupants - https://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf Therefore the US Air Force was deliberately targeting civilians when at the Nuremberg Tribunal the American prosecution themselves stated that this was a war crime - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053 If there is a Part 2 of Hellstorm they should include this info - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
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Ah, look, our Joseph Goebbels wannabe is back.
 
Belz... said:
Humans are hypocrites? Gee, say it isn't so!
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Not like every nation did not conduct similar experiment to test the effectiveness of their weapons.
BTW, several US Army bases built full scale replicas of typical European streets to train GI's in House to House fighting. SOP in wartime.
 
Mondial said:
During WW2 the US armed forces set up an imitation of a typical German home in Utah. Houses were created using the same or similar material as those found in Germany. They were then subject to aerial attack with incendiaries (fire bombs) the objective being to find out the best way to set German homes on fire and kill the maximum number of occupants - https://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf Therefore the US Air Force was deliberately targeting civilians when at the Nuremberg Tribunal the American prosecution themselves stated that this was a war crime - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053 If there is a Part 2 of Hellstorm they should include this info - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
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Mondial the seagull is back...............oh and he's gone again.....
 
Mondial said:
During WW2 the US armed forces set up an imitation of a typical German home in Utah. Houses were created using the same or similar material as those found in Germany. They were then subject to aerial attack with incendiaries (fire bombs) the objective being to find out the best way to set German homes on fire and kill the maximum number of occupants - https://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf Therefore the US Air Force was deliberately targeting civilians when at the Nuremberg Tribunal the American prosecution themselves stated that this was a war crime - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053 If there is a Part 2 of Hellstorm they should include this info - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
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It is not a war crime if any home areas have modifications to hide portions of them (as that makes them look hidden) or if the home areas are within the error range known to exist given tech of the time or close to the areas under materials production, transportation, communication, shelter for military functions.
 
Craig B said:
I have spent time in the area occupied by these Moroccan troops in Central Italy, and their abuses in the region are well remembered. But I have never heard it suggested this the French high command ordered or encouraged them; the complaint has been that they didn't act swiftly or effectively to prevent or punish these atrocities.

However, this bad reputation doesn't extend to Allied forces in general. The incursion by Allied troops was welcomed, because the main complaint of the local people was against the Germans, who were taking civilian hostages and shooting them in very large numbers. Of all the accusations made against any of the armies engaged in the area, that was the most frequent and the most serious.
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For a fictional version of this, see Two Women
 
Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...
 
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Rincewind said:
Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...
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It's interesting to note that the planners for both Defence Scheme No.1 (Canada) and War Plan Red (US) reached the same conclusions - speed would be vital, and the need would be to secure the ports of Halifax and Vancouver to prevent British reinforcement, and the rail hubs at Montreal, and Winnipeg to cripple internal resupply for the Canadians.

The Canadian scheme was to strike fast at Portland, Seattle and Spokane in the Pacific theatre, Fargo in the Prairies, and Albany in the North East, striking as far south as possible. Once the US started driving the invaders back, the idea would be to carry out a fighting retreat to the border, destroying rail lines and bridges all the way to slow the advance. The intent was to give time for the British to send an expeditionary force and then end up at a negotiating table - with the population and production disparity between Canada and the US outright victory by Canada was not seen as a realistic outcome.

Having looked at the plans, in the context of the equipment and troops available at the time, I'd give Defence Scheme No. 1 about a 50/50 chance of being able to pull its aim off (hold until reinforced), provided there was a short "flash to bang" and Canada was able to get troops called up faster than the US. The US having 10x the population base definitely helps it along with the greater amount of its industry well south of the fighting zone. With 1920s and even early to mid 30s equipment, the Canadian plan is feasible - once larger transport aircraft allow for the movement of troops and supplies, then its not a question of "can the US win?", its a case of "the regular army held the border for 30 minutes, giving us time to hide supplies for the resistance...."
 
Rincewind said:
Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...
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Indigo actually happened in a way;in 1941 US Marines. replaced UK Troops ias the garrison in Iceland because the British Troops were so badly needed elsewhere. In Early 1942, the Marines were replaced by US Army Troops because the Marines ..many of whom had experience in Jungle warfare from the "Banana Wars" ..were badly needed in the Pacific.
 
Border Reiver said:
It's interesting to note that the planners for both Defence Scheme No.1 (Canada) and War Plan Red (US) reached the same conclusions - speed would be vital, and the need would be to secure the ports of Halifax and Vancouver to prevent British reinforcement, and the rail hubs at Montreal, and Winnipeg to cripple internal resupply for the Canadians.

The Canadian scheme was to strike fast at Portland, Seattle and Spokane in the Pacific theatre, Fargo in the Prairies, and Albany in the North East, striking as far south as possible. Once the US started driving the invaders back, the idea would be to carry out a fighting retreat to the border, destroying rail lines and bridges all the way to slow the advance. The intent was to give time for the British to send an expeditionary force and then end up at a negotiating table - with the population and production disparity between Canada and the US outright victory by Canada was not seen as a realistic outcome.

Having looked at the plans, in the context of the equipment and troops available at the time, I'd give Defence Scheme No. 1 about a 50/50 chance of being able to pull its aim off (hold until reinforced), provided there was a short "flash to bang" and Canada was able to get troops called up faster than the US. The US having 10x the population base definitely helps it along with the greater amount of its industry well south of the fighting zone. With 1920s and even early to mid 30s equipment, the Canadian plan is feasible - once larger transport aircraft allow for the movement of troops and supplies, then its not a question of "can the US win?", its a case of "the regular army held the border for 30 minutes, giving us time to hide supplies for the resistance...."
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Canadian Bacon anyone?
 
dudalb said:
Indigo actually happened in a way;in 1941 US Marines. replaced UK Troops ias the garrison in Iceland because the British Troops were so badly needed elsewhere. In Early 1942, the Marines were replaced by US Army Troops because the Marines ..many of whom had experience in Jungle warfare from the "Banana Wars" ..were badly needed in the Pacific.
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It's a good job that Red wasn't implemented.

Because the RAF wouldn't have been able to beat off the Luftwaffe attack on Pearl Harbor!
 
Planigale said:
Canadian Bacon anyone?
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Which proved that Michael Moore should stick to documentaries............


Re US Invading Canada:People in the US Forget exacly who Candiands are supposed to be standing guard against in "O Canada"..........
 
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