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Tags Russia history , Russia issues , Russia politics

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Old 25th June 2018, 03:56 PM   #361
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said, there have been some morganitic marriages.


Once again, the person with whom they entered into a legal and religious contract (and with whom they may or may not have sired offspring) is only part of the issue when discussing true genetic inheritance. The latter is blind to the matter of marriage per se. All that matters is whether the person sired offspring with anyone, and if so, who that other person or people was/were.

And this is an area where genetics and genetic statistics most certainly has the upper hand on "official" records when it comes to determining true lineage and ancestry. Genes don't lie (provided they are correctly collected and analysed, of course), and it's precisely this sort of genetic analysis which has shown conclusively, for example, that almost all people with Western European heritage are directly descended from King Edward III of England, and that effectively all such people are directly descended from Charlemagne.
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:01 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said, there have been some morganitic marriages.
Apparently, morganatic is another word you don't know the meaning of:
Quote:
Morganatic marriage, sometimes called a left-handed marriage,[1] is a marriage between people of unequal social rank, which in the context of royalty prevents the passage of the husband's titles and privileges to the wife and any children born of the marriage.
Obviously, James' marriage to Anne Hyde was not morganatic as his daughters did succeed to the throne of England (and Scotland and Ireland). An example of a morganatic marriage is that of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand to Countess Sophie Chotik, whose children were excluded from the succession to the thrones of Austria and Hungary. It is one of the ironies of the murder in Sarajevo that, though Franz-Ferdinand was heir due to whatever happened at Mayerling, he was a dynastic dead-end. And yes, you read it right, the Habsburgs were so picky that a countess, a noblewoman, was below their rank.
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:12 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
I can go back to 1775 with ease with just looking at the male line.
There it stops because that ancester was an agricultural worker.

If I was noble? Much further back in time I expect.

Edit: and with ease I mean just putting my grandfathers name in google, finding the right one of that name, and then following the line back a few generations. 5 minutes work.

Interesting that it went back in time from my grandfather but not up to this moment in time.
It seems my father is just as disinterested as I am concerning anything having to do with pedigree.

The problem is, in Scandinavia and Finland, they used patronyms, 'son of X', which changed from generation to generation. So difficult to tell one 'Matti' from another.

Of course, looking at a list of names is boring. It is the history behind them that is interesting.

You either like it or you don't.
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:50 PM   #364
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So, do Russians want the monarchy restored? It seems that, seeing the vast majority of members here aren't Russian, we might be the wrong people to ask. I assume there is polling data, somewhere on this topic.
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Old 25th June 2018, 06:02 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So, do Russians want the monarchy restored? It seems that, seeing the vast majority of members here aren't Russian, we might be the wrong people to ask. I assume there is polling data, somewhere on this topic.
According to wiki:

Quote:
A study conducted by the All-Russian Center for Public Opinion showed that almost one third of the Russian population favor a restoration as of 2013.[1]

In 2017, a survey conducted by Izvestia found that 22 percent of all Russians were "not against the monarchy, but . . . did not see a candidate for such a post." The survey also found that of young Russians 37 percent supported the restoration of the monarchy.
The problem with making Vladimir Putin the Tsar, would mean his presidency would be a hereditary one, which I am not sure is a good idea.

The Russians claim monarchy is in their soul, but do they really want to rehash pre-Bolshevik sentiment? Tsar Nicolas II was not popular anywhere the then Russian empire. He was hated by all, including the Baltics and Finland.
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Old 25th June 2018, 10:22 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have seen the English version.
Then you know that he describes how the land was conquered from the "pagans" by sword and fire. Not by peacefully settling in an uninhabited wilderness.

So your claims have been undermined by a contemporary eyewitness account, and you should not repeat them. But you will.
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Old 25th June 2018, 10:27 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sure they were fascist in that they were far right, but I would dispute they had anything to do Hitler.
You have previously denied that IKL were fascists. They were as you seem to be admitting now except that you add a weasel-qualifier "in that they were far right" to that. But "far right" and "fascist" are not synonyms (and fascists usually deny that they that they are "far right" and claim that they are not on the axis at all). It is possible to be far right without being fascist, but IKL were fascists, their leaders were fascists, and they admitted it time and time again.
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Old 26th June 2018, 04:30 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
FYI It was ddt who claimed the IKL were card carrying Nazi Party members. They were not. Sure they were fascist in that they were far right, but I would dispute they had anything to do Hitler.
There were plenty other posters who made comparisons with Mussolini, and you had every chance in the thread to say that the IKL was fascist, not Nazi, but you didn't. Instead, you kept painting them as respectable, mainstream right-wingers. So don't lie about, or try to whitewash what you wrote yourself. Here's the relevant parts of your posts:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The IKL was NOT a Nazi party. It had nothing to do with Hitler or National Socialism.

Unlike the Nazis, the IKL was led by the CLERGY, professional types and the middle classes.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Border Reiver, please get your facts right. The IKL was NOT a nazi party. They were middle class and Anti-Communist.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The church under Niemoeller was anti-nazi. In any case, we are talking about the Finns pre-WWII.

The IKL had NOTHING to do with Hitler's nazis, unlike the nazi party in Sweden (once supported by the IKEA founder, who died recently).

It was a patriotic nationailistic party, no different from Trump and co.

Just because you don't like that political viewpoint, doesn't make it 'nazi'.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland never had a German-style Nazi Party (unlike Norway and Sweden), nor was it ever occupied by Germany or The USSR.

Being ultra conservative is not synonymous with 'nazi'.

The IKL were a bunch of vicars and middle class ladies.

The conservative party in the UK is anti-communist. Does that make it 'nazi'?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For the last time: the IKL had nothing whatsoever to do with Hilters NSDAP.

Stop trying to shoehorn history into your fondly held views.

People can be reactionary, conservative, nationalist, patriotic and anti-communist, without being a nazi.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Because you have been told that the IKL were not nazis, yet you still insist they were. There was a brutal Civil War in Finland. The original Lapua movement represented the 'Whites', as opposed to the Bolshevik 'Reds', arising from their victory in that battle.

I think you make the common mistake of thinking 'all right wingers are nazis'.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I learnt that a late relative by marriage had been a member of the IKL (he was managerial class). I was appalled at the news and went around telling people he was a Finnish Fascist. When I actually got round to checking the facts for myself I realised the whole label was inaccurate, for here were a bunch of harmless vicars and middle-aged ladies who still remembered the terrors of the civil war who wanted to make sure it would not happen again. Quite understandably given the bloodshed and what was happening in Russia, they were anti-communist.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The IKL were NOT Nazis. The were FINNISH NATIONALISTS, not German ones.
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Old 26th June 2018, 06:15 AM   #369
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First of all, I want to thank Marras for his posts in this thread and especially his first one on the position of the IKL. I fully agree with his distinction between fascism in general and Nazism as a subspecies of that, with the added trait of genocidal aims against Jews and other "undesirables". And I'll accept his authority that the claim the IKL were Nazis rather than "ordinary" fascists, which I made, is overblown.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
FYI It was ddt who claimed the IKL were card carrying Nazi Party members.
Will you stop lying? I never claimed that, only claimed they were a party with a Nazi ideology. You yourself have been speaking of Swedish and Norwegian Nazi parties in the same way. Quisling never was an NSDAP member either.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They were not. Sure they were fascist in that they were far right, but I would dispute they had anything to do Hitler.
Except, then, that Hitler supported them. And that, as fascists, they shared a lot of political outlook with the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I explained, the ardent anti-communist and anti-Swedish fervour was a lot to do with Finland's newly acquired independence and rode on the back of intense nationalism.
It's perfectly possible to be anti-communist and not be a fascist or even Nazi. Hell, even many social-democrats were anti-communist.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Looking at it in our comfortable armchairs from the perspective of 2018, it might look identical to the Neo-Nazis*. It is pretty ignorant IMV to claim it to be anything to do with Herr Hitler. [...]
*Especially when you bear in mind it predates the Nazis, so calling it 'Neo-Nazi, is an example of applying terms erroneously in retrospect. No doubt ddt will be calling Napoleon a 'neo-nazi', next.
It's good, then, that I never called the IKL "Neo-Nazis", but only Nazis, as they were contemporaneous with the NSDAP. Your footnote seems more a projection of your own propensity to make a hash of chronology and even reverse the arrow of time. Like Trump, you try to accuse others of things you do yourself.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course there were plenty of admirers of the Third Reich, these were the people who joined the German VI joint battalion. >400K Finns joined the Finnish army (albeit renamed by Mannerheim as the 'Karelian Army').
The latter is totally irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ddt in his ill-informed C21 armchair GUARDIAN reader stance believes Finland to have been co-Nazis with Germany, a comfortably numb 'Citizen Smith' world in which everyone can be labelled a 'Nazi' or a non-Nazi with no analysis of the real situation or whether or not the USSR are queuing up at your border.
You can lie all you want, but I've never said that. I've said that Finland was allies with Nazi-Germany - just as various other countries like Italy and Hungary. You can mealy-mouth that as "co-belligerent" but that's just an euphemism. And just like I would never call those regimes Nazi, the Finnish wasn't either. It was still a democratic government, but one which included the IKL and which adopted one of its aims, viz. the conquest of Finnish "irredenta", notably East Karelia. Your last comment is also a bit ironic in the light of what happened when both states were born. In November 1917, Lenin had his coup and declared the Soviet-Russian state, in December Finland declared independence and in January 1918 the Soviets recognized Finnish independence, within the grandducal borders. Then various volunteer groups set out from Finland to conquer various irredenta, and were sponsored by the Finnish government. Even during the Finnish Civil War, Mannerheim had 500 white guards to spare for Wallenius' expedition into East Karelia.

As to your whole post, you first concede the IKL were fascist and then spend inordinate amounts of time on saying they were not Nazis, as if there's a whole world of difference between them. Yes, there's that genocidal thing against Untermenschen, but that's it. They share much more traits: authoritarianism, disdain for democracy, rule by "the will of the leader", the cult of the leader, glorification of violence, and, indeed, finding your own people superior to others. Let's not forget that Mussolini also used antisemitic rhetoric and passed discriminatory laws against Jews, and that he had no compunction in using mustard gas against Ethiopians.

There's a lot more that unites fascism and Nazism - Nazism is a subcategory of fascism, IMHO - than that unites fascism with the mainstream right. Mainstream right wingers - whether they call themselves conservative or classic liberal or whatnot - subscribe to democratic principles and the rule of law. They're not authoritarians. Marras mentioned Svinhufvud and, reading his wiki page, he would be a perfect example of that. There's a sharp distinction, IMHO, between being an honest right-winger who subscribes to democracy and in his political choices favours business over the worker, and being a fascist who wants to abolish democracy and have rule by an authoritarian leader.

Your whole diatribe of "the IKL were fascists but not Nazis" only serves to whitewash fascism as "mostly harmless" and make fascism look respectable and just another flavour of mainstream rightism. Life is too short to distinguish between fascists and their apologists, and frankly, I see no functional difference: the apologists are the enablers who help them rise to power, even if it's only by doing nothing, to paraphrase a misquote of Burke.
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:50 AM   #370
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12340997
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Old 26th June 2018, 12:07 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Marras View Post
Then you know that he describes how the land was conquered from the "pagans" by sword and fire. Not by peacefully settling in an uninhabited wilderness.

So your claims have been undermined by a contemporary eyewitness account, and you should not repeat them. But you will.
What? I never said they were not achieved by force.


The first crusaders may well have been clergymen soldiers motivated by the promise of wealth and status.

However, migrating populations across Europe didn't have borders, so the large presence of German-speaking populations doesn't mean they were any less natural inhabitants than the proto-Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian populations.

The Normans arrived in the British Isles in 1050. You cannot say they are a foreign population today, after such a long time span, although in their case, they were originally. Likewise you can't say the Baltic Germans were, either, as they were there >700 years.
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Old 26th June 2018, 12:29 PM   #372
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12340994
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Old 26th June 2018, 12:32 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
First of all, I want to thank Marras for his posts in this thread and especially his first one on the position of the IKL. I fully agree with his distinction between fascism in general and Nazism as a subspecies of that, with the added trait of genocidal aims against Jews and other "undesirables". And I'll accept his authority that the claim the IKL were Nazis rather than "ordinary" fascists, which I made, is overblown.


Will you stop lying? I never claimed that, only claimed they were a party with a Nazi ideology. You yourself have been speaking of Swedish and Norwegian Nazi parties in the same way. Quisling never was an NSDAP member either.

Except, then, that Hitler supported them. And that, as fascists, they shared a lot of political outlook with the Nazis.


It's perfectly possible to be anti-communist and not be a fascist or even Nazi. Hell, even many social-democrats were anti-communist.


It's good, then, that I never called the IKL "Neo-Nazis", but only Nazis, as they were contemporaneous with the NSDAP. Your footnote seems more a projection of your own propensity to make a hash of chronology and even reverse the arrow of time. Like Trump, you try to accuse others of things you do yourself.


The latter is totally irrelevant.


You can lie all you want, but I've never said that. I've said that Finland was allies with Nazi-Germany - just as various other countries like Italy and Hungary. You can mealy-mouth that as "co-belligerent" but that's just an euphemism. And just like I would never call those regimes Nazi, the Finnish wasn't either. It was still a democratic government, but one which included the IKL and which adopted one of its aims, viz. the conquest of Finnish "irredenta", notably East Karelia. Your last comment is also a bit ironic in the light of what happened when both states were born. In November 1917, Lenin had his coup and declared the Soviet-Russian state, in December Finland declared independence and in January 1918 the Soviets recognized Finnish independence, within the grandducal borders. Then various volunteer groups set out from Finland to conquer various irredenta, and were sponsored by the Finnish government. Even during the Finnish Civil War, Mannerheim had 500 white guards to spare for Wallenius' expedition into East Karelia.

As to your whole post, you first concede the IKL were fascist and then spend inordinate amounts of time on saying they were not Nazis, as if there's a whole world of difference between them. Yes, there's that genocidal thing against Untermenschen, but that's it. They share much more traits: authoritarianism, disdain for democracy, rule by "the will of the leader", the cult of the leader, glorification of violence, and, indeed, finding your own people superior to others. Let's not forget that Mussolini also used antisemitic rhetoric and passed discriminatory laws against Jews, and that he had no compunction in using mustard gas against Ethiopians.

There's a lot more that unites fascism and Nazism - Nazism is a subcategory of fascism, IMHO - than that unites fascism with the mainstream right. Mainstream right wingers - whether they call themselves conservative or classic liberal or whatnot - subscribe to democratic principles and the rule of law. They're not authoritarians. Marras mentioned Svinhufvud and, reading his wiki page, he would be a perfect example of that. There's a sharp distinction, IMHO, between being an honest right-winger who subscribes to democracy and in his political choices favours business over the worker, and being a fascist who wants to abolish democracy and have rule by an authoritarian leader.

Your whole diatribe of "the IKL were fascists but not Nazis" only serves to whitewash fascism as "mostly harmless" and make fascism look respectable and just another flavour of mainstream rightism. Life is too short to distinguish between fascists and their apologists, and frankly, I see no functional difference: the apologists are the enablers who help them rise to power, even if it's only by doing nothing, to paraphrase a misquote of Burke.
From: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12340564

Not at all. I just find it irritating that people try to shoe horn their pet theories into history. The fact is, Finland are officially co-belligerents. Your stance comes from the little Englander mindset that thinks, 'Allied Forces/USSR' good, 'anyone else, bad, nazi'.

It is so myopic and fails to look at the actuality as of the time and the historical context.

The USSR breached protocol by bombing Finland shortly after the end of the Winter War. Yes, the Finnish Generals colluded together with German Generals - these were just a handful of maybe two or three - in the German plan to attack USSR via Finland's infrastructure; the Germans in Operation Barbarossa and the Finns reclaiming the land lost in 1939. It moved the expelled Karelians back and occupied the frontier for three years.

Many of the Finnish officers had trained in their youth with the Jaeger battalions as they had schools of military excellence in Germany. My grandfather was a Jääkäri in his youth. The Germans helped the White Guard crush the Red rising in Finland, which followed on from the Bolshevik Rising next door. Thus the same German Generals, who were still on cordial terms with the Finnish ones, including Mannerheim, on setting out their top secret plans for Operation Barbarossa in late 1940, and set in motion in spring 1941, asked Finland if their troops could use Finland to access their Northern target, Leningrad. It was wrong of Finland to allow it. However, the USSR having attacked again and the removal of Karelia still rankling, it saw it as an opportunity to win back the land, and have access to German machinery.

Thus it was a win-win negotiation. However, it doesn't mean Finland supported Nazi aims one way or other. Indeed, it refused to attack Leningrad.

The aim of Greater Finland was not just IKL, it was also president Risto Ryti's. This was an era of Japanese, Russian and German expansion.

The actions of Germany ended in atrocity. The Operation Barbarossa plans were top secret, so how much the top brass Finns knew of Hitler's plans is speculation.

Your assumption they were allies rather than co-belligerents, is an example of your distorted view of history.
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Old 26th June 2018, 12:34 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Marras View Post
You have previously denied that IKL were fascists. They were as you seem to be admitting now except that you add a weasel-qualifier "in that they were far right" to that. But "far right" and "fascist" are not synonyms (and fascists usually deny that they that they are "far right" and claim that they are not on the axis at all). It is possible to be far right without being fascist, but IKL were fascists, their leaders were fascists, and they admitted it time and time again.
From: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12340266

In your opinion. If their inspiration was Benito Mussolini, it was not Adolf Hitler.

Mussolini himself defined fascism as:

Quote:
The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.

...everything in the state, nothing against the State, nothing outside the state.
Which hardly describes a bunch of clergymen who are devout Lutherans and were elected.

Trying to apply labels in retrospect in 2018 simply doesn't work.

Just because a few members of IKL sought Mussolini for inspiration, of if as is claimed it accepted a donation from the German Nazis in 1939, none of that in itself means therefore ipso facto they were identical to either Italian fascism or Nazi Germany.

Your saying so, does not make it so.

The aim of the Nazi Party of Germany was:

Quote:
The Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany.[7] The party was created as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[
The aim of Mussolini's Fascists were:

Quote:
Italian Fascism promoted a corporatist economic system whereby employer and employee syndicates are linked together in associations to collectively represent the nation's economic producers and work alongside the state to set national economic policy.[4] This economic system intended to resolve class conflict through collaboration between the classes.
The aim of IKL was:

Quote:
The Patriotic Folk Movement ( IKL [1] ) was a Finnish right-wing party . It was founded on June 5, 1932 in Hämeenlinna to continue the activities of the Lapua movement [2] . However, IKL endeavored to stick to legal and parliamentary procedures. The business published a magazine called Aja Suunta . Its youth organization was Sinimustat until it was abolished until 1936 and thereafter Mustapaidat . The party was communism and anti-democracy, and its goal was to bring the dream of a single-language Greater Finland like the Academy of Karelian Society . [3] . In economic policy, IKL was strongly corporate [4] .

It is quite incorrect to call a parliamentary party 'totalitarian'. They were not bothered about the working classes or 'class conflict' for they were mostly of the educated, privileged, managerial class.

It doesn't help to label parties in retrospect. One has to look at how they defined themselves not how we would like to see them from the vantage point of 2018.
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Old 26th June 2018, 06:52 PM   #375
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Co-belligerent = Ally.

The terms are synonymous.

Pretending otherwise is silly.
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:24 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to wiki:



The problem with making Vladimir Putin the Tsar, would mean his presidency would be a hereditary one, which I am not sure is a good idea.

The Russians claim monarchy is in their soul, but do they really want to rehash pre-Bolshevik sentiment? Tsar Nicolas II was not popular anywhere the then Russian empire. He was hated by all, including the Baltics and Finland.
You wouldn't happen to have someone in mind to be restored to a Russian monarchy would you?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:56 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Co-belligerent = Ally.

The terms are synonymous.

Pretending otherwise is silly.
Yep. It's a mealy-mouthed euphemism to make it sound less bad.

In all of recorded history, the term "co-belligerent" has only been used with respect to Finland in WW2. That should give a clue.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:57 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You wouldn't happen to have someone in mind to be restored to a Russian monarchy would you?
I gotta wonder why the OP is so interested in restoring the Russian monarchy. Why not restore the Finnish monarchy?
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Old 27th June 2018, 04:22 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Normans arrived in the British Isles in 1050. You cannot say they are a foreign population today, after such a long time span, although in their case, they were originally. Likewise you can't say the Baltic Germans were, either, as they were there >700 years.
You really don't understand time, do you?

The Norman Conquest of England dates to 1066 (note for the chronologically challenged, this is 16 years after 1050). This marks the beginning of the Norman presence in England - essentially as a transplanted elite supplanting the local elites (who had in their turn done the same about 5-600 years before).

There were a few differences between the Norman conquest and the Northern Crusades:

a. No wholesale religious conversions forced at swordpoint in England;
b. The local nobility were not completely supplanted (several Anglo Saxon nobles saw the writing on the wall and swore fealty to Billy the Bastard rather than lose everything - and he took the oaths);
c. Feudalism died out a lot faster in England; and
d. The Bayeux Tapestry.

There may have been individual Normans in England prior to 1066 - mercenaries, merchants, etc, but there was certainly no major enclaves of Normans in England prior to 1066.

The other major difference is that after a few decades, the Norman elites stopped viewing themselves as Normans and started being referred to as "the English" the same as the rest of the population, in addition to the radical idea of speaking the same language as the lower classes. No one was referring to the transplanted elites as the "Norman English" after 700 years in England, while the Baltic Germans were still trying to separate themselves from the rest of the nation ethnically, in addition to socially. By keeping themselves as a foreign other (different languages, religion, etc) when the nationalist forces got let loose at the end of WWI the Baltic Germans were of course going to be targeted.
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Old 27th June 2018, 07:04 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yep. It's a mealy-mouthed euphemism to make it sound less bad.

In all of recorded history, the term "co-belligerent" has only been used with respect to Finland in WW2. That should give a clue.
Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had different ideologies, but nobody contests the fact that they were allies.

Pretending Finland wasn't an ally of Nazi Germany is a simple denial of reality.
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Old 27th June 2018, 07:34 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had different ideologies, but nobody contests the fact that they were allies.

Pretending Finland wasn't an ally of Nazi Germany is a simple denial of reality.
The expression "co-belligerent" was also used to describe Italy's status in relation to the Grand Alliance after it renounced its Axis membership and turned against Germany, in 1943. See wiki
The term was used in 1943–45 during the latter stages of World War II to define the status of former German allies and associates (chiefly Italy, but also from 1944 Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Finland), after they joined the Allied war against Germany.
By this terminology Finland became a co-belligerent of the Allies in 1944, but per wiki was an "Ally or associate" of Germany prior to that.

Last edited by Craig B; 27th June 2018 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 27th June 2018, 09:49 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to wiki:



The problem with making Vladimir Putin the Tsar, would mean his presidency would be a hereditary one, which I am not sure is a good idea.

The Russians claim monarchy is in their soul, but do they really want to rehash pre-Bolshevik sentiment? Tsar Nicolas II was not popular anywhere the then Russian empire. He was hated by all, including the Baltics and Finland.
Do monarchies have to be hereditary, though?

A Russian monarchy would require a constitutional change. And if you're rewriting the constitution anyway, you can set it up any way you want.

Vest supreme government authority in a monarch, but have a counsel of Electors who nominate and ratify the person to be monarch, for example.
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:41 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do monarchies have to be hereditary, though?

A Russian monarchy would require a constitutional change. And if you're rewriting the constitution anyway, you can set it up any way you want.

Vest supreme government authority in a monarch, but have a counsel of Electors who nominate and ratify the person to be monarch, for example.
I think technically they do have to be hereditary to be a monarchy. The Austro-Hungarian emperors were elected but they still had to be a Hapsburg for instance.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:08 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think technically they do have to be hereditary to be a monarchy. The Austro-Hungarian emperors were elected but they still had to be a Hapsburg for instance.
For maximum weirdness, try the Mamluk dynasties
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:20 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do monarchies have to be hereditary, though?
No.

One historical example is the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The king was elected by the nobility, which comprised about 10% of the population.

I can think of two contemporary non-hereditary monarchies: Vatican City, whose monarch is the pope; and the Principality of Andorra, whose two princes are the French president and the bishop of Urgell, Spain.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think technically they do have to be hereditary to be a monarchy. The Austro-Hungarian emperors were elected but they still had to be a Hapsburg for instance.
I think you're confused with the Holy Roman Empire. Its Emperor was also elected, by some of the great princes of the Empire; from about 1250, Golden Bull, we're certain about those electors: the archbishops of Trier, Cologne and Mainz; the elector-princes of the Rhine-Palatinate, Saxony, and Brandenburg; and the king of Bohemia. Later, the dukes of Bavaria and of Brunswick-something (alias the Hanovers, the same as the Kings of Britain) and some others were added. Technically, they elected the King and then the King was crowned Emperor by the Pope.

From the late 15th Century, all Emperors were Habsburgs and the post was de facto, but not de jure hereditary; there was still an election every time the Emperor died. When Maximilian died in 1519 (?), and his grandson Charles V was candidate, Francis I of France was counter-candidate and inordinate amounts of money changed hands so the electors would vote for either.

In 1806, the HRE was dissolved, and in anticipation of that, Emperor Francis had declared himself Emperor of Austria in 1805, and that post was hereditary de jure. Hungary was "just" a kingdom.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:23 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Co-belligerent = Ally.

The terms are synonymous.

Pretending otherwise is silly.
I think accuracy is important. There is a big difference between joining Nazi battalions, as the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians did and not.

There were Nordic battalions, which were a mix of Norwegians, Swedes, Estonians et al fighting for Nazi Germany's cause, but those countries were never rapped on the knuckles.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:26 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You wouldn't happen to have someone in mind to be restored to a Russian monarchy would you?
Prince Czar Harry.

Quote:
Alexander Baunov - a diplomat-turned-journalist - thinks that William's 26-year-old brother should be crowned the first king of Russian since Tsar Nicholas II reigned in 1917 on the eve of the Bolshevik Revolution.

'Let him receive parades, make visits, give dinners and offer New Year congratulations,' demanded Mr Baunov.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nt-throne.html
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:28 PM   #388
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Or try the ancient Spartans. They had two monarchs, and when one died, a new one was elected by the Spartiates, the warrior class of free citizens.

The election was not determined by counting ballots, but by measuring which candidate got the loudest applause.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:29 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yep. It's a mealy-mouthed euphemism to make it sound less bad.

In all of recorded history, the term "co-belligerent" has only been used with respect to Finland in WW2. That should give a clue.
You just can't shake off your priggish 'Little Holland' mindset can you? For you, 'The Finns were Nazi Germans' and nothing will shake your belief and nor can you even imagine the situation Finland was in pre- 1939.

Nor can your imagination stretch back in time to a point before there were any Nazi atrocities.

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Old 27th June 2018, 02:30 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think technically they do have to be hereditary to be a monarchy. The Austro-Hungarian emperors were elected but they still had to be a Hapsburg for instance.
In the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth kings were elected by the nobility - quite a large social class in that state - and held office for life. Any member of the nobility or foreign royalty was eligible. See Royal_elections_in_PolandWP for more information on this peculiar institution.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:31 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I gotta wonder why the OP is so interested in restoring the Russian monarchy. Why not restore the Finnish monarchy?
Finland has never had a monarchy. All Finns are equals.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:32 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, apart from you and a former diplomat, who thinks the Russian people want a member of the British royal family as Czar? You may recall that Great Britain lead the charge on expelling Russian diplomats and ratcheting up sanctions this year. It would seem the two countries are on different sides of what is shaping up to be a new cold war. So why then would Putin or Russia accept Harry as Czar?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:33 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland has never had a monarchy. All Finns are equals.
So why the interest a Russian monarchy, if as you say, Finns have no tradition of it?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:35 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think accuracy is important. There is a big difference between joining Nazi battalions, as the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians did and not.
Accuracy is important indeed.

Those countries fielded their own armies. They had their own commanders, but they were part of German army groups commanded by German generals. Just like the Finnish 6h Division was part of German XXXVI Army Corps during Operation Arctic Fox.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There were Nordic battalions, which were a mix of Norwegians, Swedes, Estonians et al fighting for Nazi Germany's cause, but those countries were never rapped on the knuckles.
There were private volunteers from those countries who joined the Waffen SS. Their governments never sanctioned that, so there's no need to rap them on the knuckles. This is in contrast to the Finns who joined the Waffen SS, for which the Finnish government ran the recruitment centers.

Why do you keep lying?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:37 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You really don't understand time, do you?

The Norman Conquest of England dates to 1066 (note for the chronologically challenged, this is 16 years after 1050). This marks the beginning of the Norman presence in England - essentially as a transplanted elite supplanting the local elites (who had in their turn done the same about 5-600 years before).

There were a few differences between the Norman conquest and the Northern Crusades:

a. No wholesale religious conversions forced at swordpoint in England;
b. The local nobility were not completely supplanted (several Anglo Saxon nobles saw the writing on the wall and swore fealty to Billy the Bastard rather than lose everything - and he took the oaths);
c. Feudalism died out a lot faster in England; and
d. The Bayeux Tapestry.

There may have been individual Normans in England prior to 1066 - mercenaries, merchants, etc, but there was certainly no major enclaves of Normans in England prior to 1066.

The other major difference is that after a few decades, the Norman elites stopped viewing themselves as Normans and started being referred to as "the English" the same as the rest of the population, in addition to the radical idea of speaking the same language as the lower classes. No one was referring to the transplanted elites as the "Norman English" after 700 years in England, while the Baltic Germans were still trying to separate themselves from the rest of the nation ethnically, in addition to socially. By keeping themselves as a foreign other (different languages, religion, etc) when the nationalist forces got let loose at the end of WWI the Baltic Germans were of course going to be targeted.
The Normans introduced a system of messuages and feudalism. In effect, they set up native Brits as peasants serving their master.

Have you ever read Ivanhoe?

If the only reason it's OK to have turfed out the Baltic Germans from their lands of 700 years is because they were German-speaking, wouldn't you say that was a weak argument?

We have all this French in the English language, which is quite unneccesaire, when there are perfectly good anglo-saxon equivalents.

I am willing to bet the old Normans have handed down their wealth and land over the ages to their offspring.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:39 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland has never had a monarchy. All Finns are equals.
Oh yeah, Finland has been a monarchy, albeit quite short. On 9 October 1918, Parliament elected Frederick Charles of Hesse to be King of Finland, He renounced the throne on 14 December of the same year.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:41 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had different ideologies, but nobody contests the fact that they were allies.

Pretending Finland wasn't an ally of Nazi Germany is a simple denial of reality.
I despair. It gave Germany access. However, if it had not done so, Gemany would probably have forcibly occupied it, as it did France, Holland, Denmark, Poland and Norway et al.

The Finns had no Einsatzkommando unit, no concentration camps or gas chambers.

It shows ignorance of the facts to try to pretend it did.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:44 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The expression "co-belligerent" was also used to describe Italy's status in relation to the Grand Alliance after it renounced its Axis membership and turned against Germany, in 1943. See wiki
The term was used in 1943–45 during the latter stages of World War II to define the status of former German allies and associates (chiefly Italy, but also from 1944 Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Finland), after they joined the Allied war against Germany.
By this terminology Finland became a co-belligerent of the Allies in 1944, but per wiki was an "Ally or associate" of Germany prior to that.
Yeah, because Winston Churchill, who declared war on Finland can do no wrong. The reasoning is, Churchill must have been onto something, eh? eh?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:45 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
For maximum weirdness, try the Mamluk dynasties
To be a UK monarch you have to be descended from Sophie of Hannover and not be a Catholic.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:46 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think accuracy is important.
Nobody believes that for a second.

Quote:
There is a big difference between joining Nazi battalions, as the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians did and not.

There were Nordic battalions, which were a mix of Norwegians, Swedes, Estonians et al fighting for Nazi Germany's cause, but those countries were never rapped on the knuckles.
That's nice.

Finland was still Nazi Germany's ally in WWII.
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