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Old 11th July 2018, 03:57 AM   #41
shankara
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It's not controversial. It's anti-semitic propaganda, and utterly untrue. Prejudice like yours withers in the face of facts. Try it sone time- reading the Wiki article would be a good start.
Maybe yeah, I don't know, never studied it, never looked into it, doesn't really bother me either way.

I simply said it was something that I heard, not that it was something I believed or even interested me.

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Old 11th July 2018, 05:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Maybe yeah, I don't know, never studied it, never looked into it, doesn't really bother me either way.

I simply said it was something that I heard, not that it was something I believed or even interested me.
Then why even bring it up? It seems a lot like throwing mud at a wall just to see what sticks.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:16 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Then why even bring it up? It seems a lot like throwing mud at a wall just to see what sticks.
MikeG said there was no such thing as a Jewish race. So I said I didn't know anything about Jewish genetics, only that I'd heard that the Ashkenazi were Khazarian. It seemed relevant to what he said, I dunno, the thought just entered my mind. If I was trying to convince you of it I would've read the Wikipedia article and tried to refute it.

Actually a wikipedia article isn't really enough to grasp where there is a grain of truth in the theory, one would have to read the studies concerned. On the other hand, what does it really matter what people's genetic origins are? Discrimation based on this seems to be (at least borderline) racism, and the subject of this whole topic should really be belief rather than race...

...Though race and ancestry is extremely important for those groups who most closely follow the Talmud. For example they don't believe that converts are actually people from another ancestry but Jews who got lost amongst the Goyim (i.e. who actually should be born with Jewish ancestors but weren't due to the wiles of Satan).

So anyway, sorry if I went a little off topic with the Khazarian remark.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
So I said I didn't know anything about Jewish genetics, only that I'd heard that the Ashkenazi were Khazarian.
"Ashkenazi" is an adjective. The people as a collective are called either "Ashkenazi(c) Jews" or "Ashkenazim".
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well I'm still pretty convinced that they're talking about the Christ.
Of course you are.

Quelle surprise.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
By the time the Babylonian Talmud was compiled he was pretty well known and it seems kind of likely that the Jesus they were referring to was the one who claimed to be the Messiah and got crucified.
By that "logic" do you also think the ~20 different men mentioned by Josephus with the name 'Jesus' were also "the one who claimed to be the Messiah and got crucified"?

Like most antisemites, you are not very good at this.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Even if you are correct and this isn't referring to Jesus there's definitely some serious Jewish chauvinism in Gittin 57a. "Who are the most important people in the next world? The Jewish people"
Speaking of the "next world", what do you have to say about the Christian teaching that only Christians go to Heaven and all non-Christians burn in Hell for eternity?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Ok so let's say it's not a good translation. In which case, how many of the things I quoted would be incorrect? All of them? Then it would have to be a very bad translation indeed.
I am not going to go through all the "quotes" on your cherry picked list. Since it is basically the same list found on most antisemitic sites, your "quotes" have already been addressed at legitimate scholar sites. Look it up.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
For example apparently the most authoritative statements begin with "The sages say".
There is the first clue you have no idea what you are talking about.

Statements beginning with "The sages say" means it is a dialogue/debate with various ideas/opinions. It is not law or authoritive. Opinions often conflict and say just the opposite.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
One of my quotes for example was that the sages say it's forbidden to heal a Goy. Justify that.
Jewish doctors.

Are you unaware that there are Jewish doctors, in various countries around the planet, that treat patients whether they are Jews or non-Jews? And that some of those jewish doctors are religious? What "the sages say" in the talmud are debates/opinions and not "authoritive".

How about a very famous Jewish doctor, Maimonides? He not only treated non-jewish patients, he was religious and wrote commentaries on the Talmud and knew exactly what was in it. OBVIOUSLY it is not "forbidden to heal a Goy". *smdh*

Also, Israel is the only Jewish country in the world and yet always sends medical teams and supplies to countries around the world (with the consent of the countries) to treat patients injured by disasters. That includes countries with no jewish populations at all.

I know this because I was an EMT/nurse and now work packing the medical supplies for these emergencies. These supplies are for use in any emergency, both in Israel and other countries. As I told another antisemite on this forum, none of the supplies are marked "jew"/"non-jew". They are all the same.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Furthermore I don't think the text itself is editable. Where did you get that idea?
Er...from reading the website, and seeing the edits.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well for example a lot of people quote the King James Bible. It isn't by any means a perfect translation but most would agree that it captures well enough the essence of what the Bible says. Are you saying that people can't understand the New Testament because they don't read it in Greek?
No, but look at all the variations between English translations. That is why people "version shop".

And it is very well known the people cherry pick and quote mine to "prove" the New Testament says whatever they want it to say.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I took the time to check out the discussions surrounding what I quoted (admittedly I perhaps posted hastily without checking this out first) and it seemed to me like the majority, if not all, of the quotes were not elsewhere directly refuted.
If you wanted to, (but I do not think you do) you can find opposing opinions. The info above about jewish doctors is one example.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
There are Protestant, Catholic etc,. scholars who read the Bible in Greek and yet don't understand it's essential message because they are trapped in a dogmatic paradigm of interpretation.
And you know this how? Have you personally spoken with these scholars? Can you read their thoughts? How do you arrogantly state that they "don't understand it's essential message"? Simply because they have the ability to read the original Greek and you do not? Or simply because they do not agree with your personal opinion (from only reading English translations) of what the "essential message" is?

Normally, scholars who "read the Bible in Greek" have not only put in the time and effort to learn Greek they also study the historical background of the time to put the Biblical writings in context. For that reason, many of them also learn Latin.

Until you have put in the time and effort to learn the original language(s) and historical background, IMO you do not have the right to judge those scholars who have.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Really how "questionable" is the translation? It was evidently made with good intention by people with no bias against the Jews.
Adding the phrase "the Nazarene" in the English translation, which is not in the Aramaic/Hebrew text, is not only "questionable" it is a wrong/made up "translation".
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Of course you are.

Quelle surprise.



By that "logic" do you also think the ~20 different men mentioned by Josephus with the name 'Jesus' were also "the one who claimed to be the Messiah and got crucified"?

Like most antisemites, you are not very good at this.
Hmm... Well from what I know about Jesus he was a serious and dangerous enemy of rabbinical orthodoxy, the kind of person they would likely remember.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Speaking of the "next world", what do you have to say about the Christian teaching that only Christians go to Heaven and all non-Christians burn in Hell for eternity?
I think it's completely crazy.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I am not going to go through all the "quotes" on your cherry picked list. Since it is basically the same list found on most antisemitic sites, your "quotes" have already been addressed at legitimate scholar sites. Look it up.
Well I did take the list from someone who seemed admittedly to be a racist (not that Jews are ever racists), that's probably why 40 of them I couldn't find anywhere in the Talmud.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
There is the first clue you have no idea what you are talking about.

Statements beginning with "The sages say" means it is a dialogue/debate with various ideas/opinions. It is not law or authoritive. Opinions often conflict and say just the opposite.
Ok, I confess my ignorance and will believe you on that point.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Jewish doctors.

Are you unaware that there are Jewish doctors, in various countries around the planet, that treat patients whether they are Jews or non-Jews? And that some of those jewish doctors are religious? What "the sages say" in the talmud are debates/opinions and not "authoritive".

How about a very famous Jewish doctor, Maimonides? He not only treated non-jewish patients, he was religious and wrote commentaries on the Talmud and knew exactly what was in it. OBVIOUSLY it is not "forbidden to heal a Goy". *smdh*

Also, Israel is the only Jewish country in the world and yet always sends medical teams and supplies to countries around the world (with the consent of the countries) to treat patients injured by disasters. That includes countries with no jewish populations at all.

I know this because I was an EMT/nurse and now work packing the medical supplies for these emergencies. These supplies are for use in any emergency, both in Israel and other countries. As I told another antisemite on this forum, none of the supplies are marked "jew"/"non-jew". They are all the same.
Maimonides also had a serious problem with Christianity. I mean, I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in the doctrine, but the Christ himself, how can you not have love for that being? Actually I was going to try reading Maimonides for myself and see how that turns out.

The idea that Israel is capable of acting with any kind of disinterested humanitarian motives... I'm not sure I swallow that pill.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Er...from reading the website, and seeing the edits.
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
No, but look at all the variations between English translations. That is why people "version shop".

And it is very well known the people cherry pick and quote mine to "prove" the New Testament says whatever they want it to say.



If you wanted to, (but I do not think you do) you can find opposing opinions. The info above about jewish doctors is one example.



And you know this how? Have you personally spoken with these scholars? Can you read their thoughts? How do you arrogantly state that they "don't understand it's essential message"? Simply because they have the ability to read the original Greek and you do not? Or simply because they do not agree with your personal opinion (from only reading English translations) of what the "essential message" is?

Normally, scholars who "read the Bible in Greek" have not only put in the time and effort to learn Greek they also study the historical background of the time to put the Biblical writings in context. For that reason, many of them also learn Latin.

Until you have put in the time and effort to learn the original language(s) and historical background, IMO you do not have the right to judge those scholars who have.
Well I dunno, if they really understood it IMO they wouldn't be either Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox etc., because these dogmas have nothing to do with the teaching of Christ. Intellectualism is often counter-intutive obfuscation.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Adding the phrase "the Nazarene" in the English translation, which is not in the Aramaic/Hebrew text, is not only "questionable" it is a wrong/made up "translation".
Ok, you found one mistranslation.

Last edited by shankara; 11th July 2018 at 01:50 PM. Reason: misplaced quote tags
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:13 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Speaking of the "next world"
I notice you didn't respond to what I said but changed the subject. Nice rhetorical trick. On the other hand you did raise a good point, the doctrines of Predestination etc., are quite inhumane.

----

So I'm going to post one quote by an Israeli Rabbi. I would post more, and there are many many more, but I haven't got the time at present to go through all of them in order to verify them. The quote is as follows:

Quote:
“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel.”

“In Israel, death has no dominion over them… With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

“This is his servant… That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew.”

“Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat… That is why gentiles were created.”
Given language like this, doesn't it seem quite reasonable to assume that there is something in this person's religious beliefs (and therefore somewhere in it's sacred texts) which says that the Goyim are less human than him?

Furthermore, one only has to look at what's going on in Israel. Any sensible person can see that it's an apartheid state. It's also a Jewish state. Isn't it stretching the boundaries of possibility a bit to say that the fact that it's an apartheid state has nothing to do with the fact that it's a Jewish state?

All the horrible things their doing to the Palestinians, it's clear that Jewish life is valued far above Palestinian life. A soldier who kills an unarmed Palestinian in cold blood takes 9 months. A girl who slaps a soldier takes (I believe) three years. Innocent protestors shot with exploding bullets... All of this insane cruelty... Are we supposed to believe that all of this has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism?

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Old 12th July 2018, 04:21 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well in that case what is the problem with criticizing extremist forms of religion?...........
None whatever. Crack on.

Quote:
If I was quoting the Koran I wonder if there'd be so much backlash............
Why would you wonder that? There are plenty of threads here on the Qu'ran. It isn't your textual analysis which is receiving much backlash, it is your bias.
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:24 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well I'm still pretty convinced that they're talking about the Christ........
Who gives a monkey's? No-one is interested in what convinces you. The modus operandi here is that you have to convince us, and the only way of doing that is to back up your assertions with evidence which can be examined and falsified.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:14 AM   #50
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A Conclusion

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Who gives a monkey's? No-one is interested in what convinces you. The modus operandi here is that you have to convince us, and the only way of doing that is to back up your assertions with evidence which can be examined and falsified.
What standard of proof are you seeking exactly? Established scientific fact? I can't provide that.

In 500AD when the Talmud was compiled, Jesus Christ was a well known figure. The Christian church was being established, Christianity had become a major movement.

Even at the time when he was alive he must have got a lot of attention from the Jewish people. The Bible records that before Pilate the Jewish multitudes cried "Free Barabas" and when Pilate told them that his blood was on their hands they all said "His blood be upon us and upon our children".

Jesus was therefore a well known and dangerous critic of the doctrines of the Jews, not to mention a Messiah claimant. Was there another equally well-known Jesus who was an open enemy of Jewish doctrine?

This is enough to convince me that it is probable that the Talmud was speaking of Jesus Christ. It's a very reasonable assumption, and a reasonable assumption is good enough for me, seeing as there seems to be absolutely no evidence disproving it or strongly suggesting otherwise.

On a side note, Maimonides, probably the most famous commentator of modern times, declared Christianity to be idolatry (not Islam). The founder of an idolatrous sect would likely be in some kind of hell.

So we can go round in intellectual circles as long as we want discussing this, but I think this post and my last post are all that really needs to be said. I trust my intuition, intuition is founded in intellectual culture but goes beyond intellectual culture. I'm not sure that I'm going to keep replying to these posts because it seems like most people have already made up their minds. For example, one person without actually saying anything else or making an argument simply deleted their posts with the words "it's not worth getting into it with antisemites".

Antisemitism is the stock accusation used against anyone who questions anything to do with Judaism. It's a tired cliche and really anyone with intelligence should be able to see through it. Even people who simply critique Zionism recieve the same label, therefore suggesting the wicked and heretical theory that Zionism actually has religious rather than simply ideological roots, well, what sort of response can one expect?

The quote from the Rabbi I posted above is not an isolated incidence of some crazy person. The Rabbi in question was a very high authority amongst the Sephardi. There are many other similar quotations, from Hassidim for example who regard the Goyim as "100% Satanic". To me it is evident that such ideas actually find their roots in Jewish tradition and the fact of the matter is that the Israeli behaviour towards the Palestinians is manifest evidence of their belief in their own racial supremacy.

Finally I would like to point out that the criticism that I don't speak Hebrew is rather silly. The Catholic church for centuries kept the Bible out of the hands of the people, believing that only they could correctly interpret it. Protestantism flowered when the Bible got into people's hands and they started interpreting it for themselves. I'm not a Protestant nor in favour of all their doctrines (which soon became dogmas in themselves), but I do believe that people are capable of interpreting things themselves, they don't need the guidance of an intellectual elite. The Bible has helped me a lot spiritually without any so-called authority telling me what it means.

I don't believe, therefore, that only scholars of Hebrew can grasp the basic meaning of the Talmud. That's a very convenient way for them to deflect all criticism.

I do believe that it is important to verify the context of things, and I apologize that I didn't take enough care to do so before posting the original thing. I did however have a look later and there didn't seem to be in the surrounding parts of the Talmud any direct refutation of the things I quoted. I'm not saying that all of the quotes necessarily had the meaning ascribed to them on the site where I found the list, the one which supposedly permits sodomy with 9 year old boys for example seems a bad interpretation to me. However there were others where the meaning is sufficiently clear.

For me, a phrase from the New Testament sums up very well this whole business, particularly what is happening with the fanatics in Israel;
"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

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Old 12th July 2018, 08:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
So I'm going to post one quote by an Israeli Rabbi. I would post more, and there are many many more, but I haven't got the time at present to go through all of them in order to verify them. The quote is as follows:
That rabbi did say those horrible things and it is beyond disgusting, revolting, and completely indefensible. His statements were condemned by Jews in Israel and around the world. He issued an apology but that does not change the fact he said those vile things.

He also said that Israeli soldiers deserved to die because they were not religious, and that jewish holocaust victims also deserved to die because they were reincarnations of sinners. Those, and other statements he made were also condemned.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Furthermore, one only has to look at what's going on in Israel. Any sensible person can see that it's an apartheid state.
..............
If you want to discuss Israel, start a new thread. This thread is about the talmud.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:28 AM   #52
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I feel that the last thing I wrote pretty much dealt with the majority of your criticisms.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
That rabbi did say those horrible things and it is beyond disgusting, revolting, and completely indefensible. His statements were condemned by Jews in Israel and around the world. He issued an apology but that does not change the fact he said those vile things.

He also said that Israeli soldiers deserved to die because they were not religious, and that jewish holocaust victims also deserved to die because they were reincarnations of sinners. Those, and other statements he made were also condemned.
Perhaps this individual was an extremist. From what I've seen from documentaries however, there are Ultra-Orthodox whose attitudes towards gentiles are not vastly different. Soon enough they will almost be a majority in Israel due to their high birth rates. Though I've never actually been in a Yeshiva and heard what they're saying, their belief in Jewish Supremacism is pretty obvious.

The Hassidim Kabbalists also, who believe that the non-Jewish souls come from Satan and that converts aren't actually converts but Jewish souls who got lost. Amongst them there is also a lot of Jewish Supremacism. Without having time to seek out and verify a lot of quotes, here is one from the founder of Chabad Lubavitch:

"Two contrary types of soul exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness."

"A Jew was not created as a means for some [other] purpose; he himself is the purpose, since the substance of all [divine] emanations was created only to serve the Jews."

('The Great Rebbe' Menachem Mendel Schneerson)

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
If you want to discuss Israel, start a new thread. This thread is about the talmud.
Israel is the visible manifestation of Jewish Supremacism. Indeed the whole injunction of the Talmud about it being legally permissible to kill a goy has in fact been publically demonstrated in the case of the Jewish soldier who received only nine months in jail for shooting a disarmed Palestinian, who was laying on the ground, in the head. There were I believe a lot of voices in Israel who called for him not to be punished even that little. This proves that the Talmud's injunction...

"The Gemara challenges: But wherever there is liability for capital punishment, this tanna teaches it; as it is taught in the first clause: With regard to bloodshed, if a gentile murders another gentile, or a gentile murders a Jew, he is liable. If a Jew murders a gentile, he is exempt."


...is a common opinion and is interpreted literally.

All the rest of it, like the mass murder of peaceful demonstrators in recent weeks, shows that there Jewish life is valued much more highly than that of the Goyim. This seems to fit well with the quote of the Talmud:

Rabbi Ḥanina says: A gentile who struck a Jew is liable to receive the death penalty, as it is stated when Moses saw an Egyptian striking a Hebrew: “And he turned this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he struck the Egyptian and hid him in the sand” (Exodus 2:12).
And Rabbi Ḥanina says: One who slaps the cheek of a Jew is considered as though he slapped the cheek of the Divine Presence; as it is stated: “It is a snare [mokesh] for a man to rashly say [yala]: Holy” (Proverbs 20:25). The verse is interpreted homiletically to mean: One who strikes [nokesh] a Jew is considered as though he hurt the cheek [lo’a] of the Holy One.

(Sanhedrin 58b)

Practise is evidence of belief, is it not? As outside of Israel there are not any Rabbinical courts which can imprison people or a Jewish military which can kill people, the behavior of Israel and it's people is where we can most clearly see whether the injunctions of the Talmud which are cynically (or naively) fobbed off as "minority opinions" etc., are actually practiced.

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Old 12th July 2018, 11:48 AM   #53
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Like I said, if you want to discuss Israel----start a new thread.

Israeli policies are NOT derived from the Talmud, so stop discussing Israel along with talmudic quotes to try to "prove" anything.

And btw, I took a kabbalah class in the Galil. It was co-taught by three teacher; one Christian, one Jewish, and one Muslim. All of them were kabbalists. The students were also mixed Israeli Christians, Israeli Muslims and Israeli Jews. They did not have a problem with it and did not teach things like you quoted.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #54
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I see some people here have no idea of what the Talmud is.
Hint It's a record of commentaries, arguments, and decisions on topics arising from interpretation of the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). A lot of totally different,opposing arguments and opinions are given in the text. It's not a book of statute law,it's more like legal journal with lots of court transcripts. Just because something is in the transcripts does not mean it is binding law.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Like I said, if you want to discuss Israel----start a new thread.

Israeli policies are NOT derived from the Talmud, so stop discussing Israel along with talmudic quotes to try to "prove" anything.
Practise is evidence of belief.

Perhaps your government fools you just as the governments of the nations fool them. What they say is in the name of "security" is it maybe really motivated by a dark racist mysticism? I'm sure they would have no problem lying to other Jews if they believed it was in their ultimate interest.

Not that all Jewish supremacists are Zionists...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfsf6go7MVM
...I wonder if this sample is representative.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
And btw, I took a kabbalah class in the Galil. It was co-taught by three teacher; one Christian, one Jewish, and one Muslim. All of them were kabbalists. The students were also mixed Israeli Christians, Israeli Muslims and Israeli Jews. They did not have a problem with it and did not teach things like you quoted.
Yeah I've studied Kabbalah too. I recently learnt about the specifically Jewish/Hassidic Kabbalism from this book:
https://archive.org/details/JewishHi...shReligion_665

I'm really not sure if I have much left to say on this subject. My arguments are sufficiently clear, accept or reject them as you like.

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Old 12th July 2018, 03:08 PM   #56
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Oh,you have made the way you feel about Jews very clear....
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:24 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh,you have made the way you feel about Jews very clear....
Yeah, the whole "I'm Just Asking Questions/Haven't Studied This Too Much" shtick is a weeee bit transparent.

We've been through this routine before. They're not the first anti-Semite to post here, and sadly they probably won't be the last.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:38 PM   #58
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Apparently the OP spammed several other forums with a copy/paste job of his/her post #1 in this thread.

The other forums are not skeptics so they did not immediately see right through the OP like posters in this thread did.

The mask came off.

Jews -> bad. Non-jews -> good.

Judaism -> bad. All other religions -> good.

(OP's version of Christianity is especially good, but the particular version is not specified, although Catholics are, apparently, not especially good. Catholics = "symbolic" Pharisees).

Oh, and the OP knows all about how Jews have sex.

They just lie next to each other in the dark. No kissing/cuddling allowed....

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Old 13th July 2018, 01:03 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Apparently the OP spammed several other forums with a copy/paste job of his/her post #1 in this thread.

The other forums are not skeptics so they did not immediately see right through the OP like posters in this thread did.
So yeah I shared the information around, so what?

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The mask came off.

Jews -> bad. Non-jews -> good.

Judaism -> bad. All other religions -> good.

(OP's version of Christianity is especially good, but the particular version is not specified, although Catholics are, apparently, not especially good. Catholics = "symbolic" Pharisees).
There's corruption in all religions at this point. I'm a Buddhist with some love for the Christ. Even my own religion I have problems with, I mean, check out the book "The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama". Catholicism, well it's like you said "what about the idea that people of other religions burn in hell for eternity."

On the other hand I do think that religion in general makes civilized people.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post

Oh, and the OP knows all about how Jews have sex.
They just lie next to each other in the dark. No kissing/cuddling allowed....

Yeah I saw a documentary on French TV where a former ULTRA-ORTHODOX explained the way in which he was made to have sex with his wife. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the documentary

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Old 13th July 2018, 01:06 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Yeah, the whole "I'm Just Asking Questions/Haven't Studied This Too Much" shtick is a weeee bit transparent.

We've been through this routine before. They're not the first anti-Semite to post here, and sadly they probably won't be the last.
How cliched, whatever the arguments are any criticism of any Jews is based on hatred, racism, prejudice etc.

But obviously you know me very well and understand completely my motivations.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:13 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh,you have made the way you feel about Jews very clear....
I hope I have made the way that some Jews feel about the Goyim very clear.

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Old 13th July 2018, 02:27 AM   #62
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I believe Illinois nazis don't like Jews much. So your point is?
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Old 13th July 2018, 03:28 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see some people here have no idea of what the Talmud is.
Hint It's a record of commentaries, arguments, and decisions on topics arising from interpretation of the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). A lot of totally different,opposing arguments and opinions are given in the text. It's not a book of statute law,it's more like legal journal with lots of court transcripts. Just because something is in the transcripts does not mean it is binding law.
I already mentioned this when talking about the context of the quotes, which admittedly I didn't check before I posted. However I did check them afterwards and found nothing in the surrounding text directly refuting the quotes which I posted.

After doing this I was told that I couldn't possibly understand what the Talmud said without speaking Hebrew (evidently the translation is so terribly inaccurate that there would be no chance of me comprehending in English).

A criticism which I already addressed above.

Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I believe Illinois nazis don't like Jews much. So your point is?
What is your point? That we shouldn't criticize the Jews and call them out over the supremacist elements among them and suspicious doctrines in certain texts because some white supremacists don't like Jews?

Really this is getting dull, I think I'm only going to respond to direct criticisms of the arguments I've made.
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Old 13th July 2018, 03:31 AM   #64
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Arguments?
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Old 13th July 2018, 03:54 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I'm a Buddhist with some love for the Christ.
Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana?
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Old 13th July 2018, 04:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
How cliched, whatever the arguments are any criticism of any Jews is based on hatred, racism, prejudice etc.

But obviously you know me very well and understand completely my motivations.
You're not the first to try this shtick, you won't be the last.
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Old 13th July 2018, 05:44 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Arguments?
Yes I've presented quite a number of them if you take the time to read all that I've written here.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Mahayana, Theravada, or Vajrayana?
Non-conformist Vajrayana

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
You're not the first to try this shtick, you won't be the last.
So what's the more tired cliche? The antisemitic presenting themselves as merely a disinterested person seeking truth (that's pretty much what you're accusing me of being, right?), or the allegations of antisemitism (i.e. racism) towards anyone who questions anything to do with the Jews?

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Old 13th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Non-conformist Vajrayana
I'm not familiar with that. Is that an actual sect of Buddhism or just your set of personal views with an "Eastern mysticism" label slapped on it?
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I'm not familiar with that. Is that an actual sect of Buddhism or just your set of personal views with an "Eastern mysticism" label slapped on it?
I practise the Vajrayana Secret Mantra but I don't seek initiation from Lamas, I don't believe that they are in fact Bodhisattvas and having looked into the history of the whole thing I think that the whole doctrine has essentially been corrupted. I've studied enough about it all that I trust my own understanding of it and I'm a serious enough practitioner, I try to keep the vows.

Actually I do have a couple of Gurus but they're not officially recognized reincarnations of Lamas or anything like that. The incarnation of one of them is predicted in a Tibetan root text but the whole Tibetan thing has become so dogmatic and cliquey that they wouldn't accept him.

There's a dark side to Tibetan Buddhism of course, and there are still extremists among the Tibetan Lama-aristocracy. There's a book called "The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama" which goes into all of that.

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Old 13th July 2018, 11:29 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
What is your point? That we shouldn't criticize the Jews and call them out over the supremacist elements among them and suspicious doctrines in certain texts because some white supremacists don't like Jews?
I still don't know what your end game is.

All religious sects are subjected to so many claims and counter claims that it would take too long to sort them out and make sense of them unless there was a compelling reason to do so.

Are they a threat to world peace? Are their human rights violations so egregious that taking action against them must take priority over taking action against other human rights violators?
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:36 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I still don't know what your end game is.

All religious sects are subjected to so many claims and counter claims that it would take too long to sort them out and make sense of them unless there was a compelling reason to do so.

Are they a threat to world peace? Are their human rights violations so egregious that taking action against them must take priority over taking action against other human rights violators?
I think the end game is "JEWS ARE EVIL!".
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the end game is "JEWS ARE EVIL!".
Not helpful. Let's see if shankara is willing to try and give a sensible answer to a genuine question.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:06 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not helpful. Let's see if shankara is willing to try and give a sensible answer to a genuine question.
DOn't hold your breath......

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:46 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
DOn't hold your breath......

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
.
That doesn't matter.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I still don't know what your end game is.

All religious sects are subjected to so many claims and counter claims that it would take too long to sort them out and make sense of them unless there was a compelling reason to do so.

Are they a threat to world peace? Are their human rights violations so egregious that taking action against them must take priority over taking action against other human rights violators?
I believe, based on what we see happening in Israel, that there is something seriously wrong. Not with all of the Jews, many of them are decent people, I know and talk to Jews, I don't hate them. But just look, open your eyes to what is happening in the occupied territories, there is no power on earth that is so utterly cruel and manifestly racist. They hide behind accusing every anti-Zionist of being a "bigot" as the guy just said in his comment.

There is the contention that this has nothing to do with Judaism per se, that Zionism is just a secular movement. Let's consider that for a moment...

Practise is evidence of belief.
People (and states, conglomerations of people) act based on their belief. Are we saying then that Israel just by coincidence behave towards their local Goyim in the way they do? That Zionism has nothing to do with the Talmud? Because they behave in the way that somebody following those passages of the Talmud would behave. Is this just coincidence?

Not all the passages I quoted are demonstrated in Israel's behaviour, I freely admit. However one might reasonably extrapolate that if they behave in accordance with a few of the things, they probably in fact believe in all of the things. Their behaviour which is clearly in accordance with one or two of the teachings to me suggests that they in fact believe in the rest of them, because it is an admission that they consider the source of them to be valid. Not only is practise evidence of belief, but belief is generally evidence of tradition.

Why is this so bad? Why is it necessary for me to make these points? As you say, why must this take priority? For the very reason that there is so much resistance to such ideas. Above I argued, I believe convincingly, that Jesus is in fact mentioned in the Talmud. If one really just steps back for a moment and stops misguidedly trying to defend the consensus belief, one would see that the most well-known enemy of Judaism named Jesus at around 500CE was Jesus the Nazarene (who Maimonides, one of the major authorities on Judaism classed as an idolator - not Mohammed, only Jesus - and therefore who would logically be considered to be in hell)

So why are people so resistant to this? There is the trauma of the holocaust, one can see why one would instinctively defend people who have been subject to that. Yet we have to overcome this instinctive reaction and stay out of the realm of hysteria.

In my eyes, and I believe in the eyes of any unbiased person, the Talmud seems to teach Jewish Supremacism. You can say that I was just quoting things out of context, but you can check the context yourselves, most if not all that I quoted is not elsewhere refuted (I've already addressed the point that one must supposedly speak Hebrew, the English translation isn't that bad) If there were no Israel this Jewish Supremacism wouldn't be so major a problem, but there is an Israel, and Israel has nuclear weapons. Imagine if white supremacists had arms like that, and even worse, that people were scared to call them white supremacists.

Even the Israeli Jews are not all to blame, they are not all bad. Some of them are, settlers who shoot at Palestinians knowing they won't be prosecuted, but by no means all. They are manipulated by their elites just like we Goyim are manipulated by ours. Yet, if Israel is behaving badly now, just think how they will behave when the Ultra-Orthodox become a majority. This will happen before long given their high birth rates. They are crazy people, fanatics one hundred percent. Their teaching comes from the Talmud, and to understand them we must understand the Talmud. Though they are somewhat secretive about their beliefs it's pretty obvious that they are real Jewish supremacists (check out how they respond to Morgan Spurlock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqON2akfM-8)

An Israel with a majority of Ultra-Orthodox will be the greatest danger to world peace that we will face in the coming century.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:42 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
An Israel with a majority of Ultra-Orthodox will be the greatest danger to world peace that we will face in the coming century.
Does that include the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox, like the Satmars and Litvaks? Or are you talking about the Lubavitchers, Gurers, or Belzers?
Or do you mean the Sephardic Ultra-Orthodox, like Ovadia Yosef (who I think was mentioned upthread)?

I mean, you're aware that there are a lot of different Haredi sects, factions, traditions, and schools of thought, right?

(I know you're not aware of it. You were probably confused by the word "Haredi." But it'll force you to google it, and perhaps you'll learn something.)
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:06 PM   #77
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And anyway, I think a Ultra Orthodox Majority in Israel is a long,long,long ways off.....
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Does that include the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox, like the Satmars and Litvaks? Or are you talking about the Lubavitchers, Gurers, or Belzers?

..............
Not to mention that the haredim ("ultra-orthodox") regardless of sect, have their own schools where they shun subjects like math and science. They also shun technology, television, internet, etc. Only minimal mobile phone usage (no internet). They also do not serve in the army, except a very few. They protest against the government at the very idea of serving in the army.

So, with no interest in serving in the army, or of learning technology, math and science, how exactly are they supposed to be a threat to world peace?
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:50 AM   #79
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duplicate post.
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
...... < much snippage > ......

In my eyes, and I believe in the eyes of any unbiased person, the Talmud seems to teach Jewish Supremacism.
"We are God's chosen people and all other people are just animals" is a common teaching in most religions. Even if the worst of the worst of your interpretations were literally true, I don't see the Talmud as any more pernicious than any other religious text.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
If there were no Israel this Jewish Supremacism wouldn't be so major a problem, but there is an Israel, and Israel has nuclear weapons.
I doubt that Israel poses a bigger threat than other nuclear states. Some are dominated by Islamic extremists who definitely want war. However, my observation is that communist dictatorships (USSR, North Korea) pose or have posed a bigger threat to world peace than religious regimes.

Imagine if white supremacists had arms like that, and even worse, that people were scared to call them white supremacists.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Yet, if Israel is behaving badly now, just think how they will behave when the Ultra-Orthodox become a majority. This will happen before long given their high birth rates.
Is that their plan? To out-breed third world countries? Even if the "Ultra-Orthodox" becomes a majority, why would they declare war on the rest of the world? If they were to prepare for war (a big undertaking) they would be found out and dealt with long before their preparations proved threatening.

BTW you still haven't told us what your final solution is.
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