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#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,822
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TERFs crash London Pride
BBC News: Pride in London sorry after anti-trans protest
"Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said. The group believes lesbian rights are attacked by the trans movement. Pride said their behaviour on Saturday was "shocking and disgusting". It said they could not forcibly remove the small group as their protest was not a criminal offence, adding "we are sorry". A statement said: "The protest group showed a level of bigotry, ignorance and hate that is unacceptable." " |
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#2 |
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 29,427
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"Splitters!"
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"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady "I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will |
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#3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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Humans find reasons to hate other humans for being different. More News at 11.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#4 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,898
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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#5 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,822
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#6 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 41,750
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The open letter written in protest - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Lc/mobilebasic
The response from Pride - https://prideinlondon.org/news/2018/...-protest-group |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,493
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A very negligible minority! "... the actions of 8 people ...".
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#8 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,740
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So it's a... TERF war?
I'll get my coat. |
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#9 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,606
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I don't understand the problem. They assert that lesbians are same-sex attracted females. And that females do not have penises. That was all they did.
I've seen plenty of times that women like this are labeled "TERFS" and vilified for not being willing to accept transwomen as female sex partners. What is wrong with accepting reality? What is wrong with having sexual boundaries? |
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#10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,674
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#11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,172
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I thought the issue was that generally trans people are trying to fit into a specific gender and not just saying to the world that 'this is me, accept it or offski'.
the other parts of the movement are saying 'this is me, accept it or offski'. the accusation is that trans are therefore conservative or something and shouldn't be in the group, who knows. |
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#12 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,605
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This is what every body keeps telling the alt left will happen when you insist on putting everyone into groups
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#13 |
Hyperthetical
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,502
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A zømbie once bit my sister... |
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#14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,722
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From the trans point of view, at what point in the transition are they properly entitled to recognition as a lesbian for sexual purposes?
After they identify but before they start transitioning? After starting the transition, but before any SRS? Ever? Is there any reason the lesbian in question should *not* be the only arbiter of what origin stories she's willing to consider in her sexual partners? Right now, the thing has a bit of an incel feel to it, for lack of a better word. Transwomen acting like they're entitled to sex, and damn these women for not doing the right thing and putting out. |
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#15 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,023
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I'm not going to claim they are bringing the issue up in good faith, but the group from the OP did give examples in their leaflets (see second page here). The debate on the cotton ceiling is a real one even among trans activists.
This article seems give give a broad and balanced overview of the other issues, particularly in the UK. |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#16 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,869
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Cotton ceiling seems like a weird name for it.
It's unfortunate for those who have transitioned but the reality is that people mostly don't want to date someone trans, they want to date someone who is cis. That's not "transphobic", either. |
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#17 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,605
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__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,822
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Not sure how you get that. The protest group in question specifically claimed that lesbians were somehow being "forced" to have sex with "men" in terms of transwomen who are lesbians. They didn't add any qualification or nuance to it, other than a general attitude of "Y chromosome - yew!" When you couple that with their suggestion that transmen are actually wrong-labelled butch lesbians "forced" into transition, they're basically exhibiting exactly the same denialist prejudices as a lot of straights have towards transgender people, as well as - ironically - gays and lesbians.
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#19 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,920
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Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the partners they may or may not be attracted to, any more than it does for the cisgendered. This preoccupation with some purported sexual aggression of transwomen against ciswomen is remarkably reminiscent of the paranoia that the racist white men would have about black men being after their white womenfolk. |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." |
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,722
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#21 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,920
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Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. You may be right, and that would be just as weird. Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with what other people's expectations are as far as who they would want for partners. Anyone who is transgender is going to be very aware of the fact that most of the cisgendered are going to view them as unattractive for partners, regardless of their sexual preferences. Their expectations are going to be very low in all cases, despite what some lesbians might believe. |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." |
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#22 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,441
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The part that burns my biscuits is how the TERF types got half the youngins on the internet to buy into their "Queer is a slur!" BS. The folks from the 80s are having to step up all the time to explain to kids who heard it on Facebook that hey, ok, if you don't like the word 'Queer' that's fine, you don't have to use it, but don't go telling people who identify as Queer that they're not allowed to, and also please learn some history and context.
I get the impression that TERFs and other gatekeepers hate "Queer" because it's an umbrella term that doesn't require you to pick alphabet soup letters and get into your correct pigeonhole. You can be Queer before (and after!) you're sure exactly what you are. (Mentioning it cause the group mentioned in the OP had a big "lesbian not queer" sign.) |
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#23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,116
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Sounds like we need an updated version of the song, National Brotherhood Week; we could call it National Intersectional Week.
"And everybody hates the straights!" |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#24 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,864
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#25 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,023
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Eh, I don't think is due to TERF rhetoric (there were only 8 people here after all). I think you are unfairly dismissing the history and context of the people who hear it as a slur. We don't actually have one shared or "legitimate" experience or history, and we didn't all get together and agree on "reclaiming".
I also question if it is a generational divide where it was accepted previously and now is being questioned by those who "don't know their history". My experience has been the opposite, and young people are less likely to want specific labels. I don't think I've met anyone who actually told someone they couldn't identify as queer, but I don't think the frustration people can have is bigotry when the identity can lead to silliness like "Can Straight People Be Queer?" |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#26 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,441
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I'm certainly not gonna say your mileage can't vary, but I see over and over people on Tumblr etc making some commentary on why they like to identify themselves as queer, and getting younger folks replying to say "Don't you know queer is a slur and you shouldn't use it on people who aren't comfortable with being called a slur." And OP is left going "I literally.. was saying I like to use it.. on myself... Do you really feel the need to come in here and tell me my chosen self-identification is a slur?"
It's a new-ish phenomenon, seems to have started around 2014 when Tumblr got tired of policing fandom and decided to try policing identity politics. I feel like I'm completely fairly dismissing the history and context of the people who hear it as a slur in the context of trying to police the word. For one thing, all words you can use as that kind of self-identifier have been used as slurs. For another, queer does indeed have a broadly shared positive context - from "We're here, we're queer, get used to it," to ubiquitous use in academics alongside the LGBT type acronyms. Not universal, no, but nothing is. |
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,722
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This is why I only use tumblr for porn.
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#28 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,023
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Yeah, treating interactions on Tumblr as representative of anything is a terrible, horrible, awful idea. I refuse to, lest I become an alt-right TERF because it is so full of absolute nonsense. You might call it "policing", but I would call it disagreeing in the strategy or practice of "reclaiming" or nebulous meta-umbrella terms. There are people who "reclaim" faggot, tranny, etc. and a lot of people who disagree. There are people who debate if straight people can be queer. Arguing based on a "history" or "context" that you are assuming they are unaware of seems like a pointless detour in order to dismiss.
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#29 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,441
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I'm not saying BS on tumblr is representative of anything but tumblr, but on tumblr that is a thing and it seems to have started with TERFs taking advantage of young SJW types and been used to harass a lot of folks there that identify as queer/trans.
Do you really disagree that 'queer' has built up a pretty serious history and tradition of positive connotations probably second only to 'gay' as a word that's also traditionally an insult? The others you mention really don't compare. Again, I only bring this up at all cause the TERF group in the OP had a "lesbian not queer" banner and I associate TERFs with bashing on people who like to identify as queer. |
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#30 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,023
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I'm saying people in disagreed with reclaiming "queer" as an umbrella term since people started doing it. I remember people debating it in the local LGBT club in real life a decade ago. The history of positive connotations is, again, not universal, and I still fail to see how that actually responds to the concerns of people who disagree with it.
I also disagree that TERFs have convinced a significant number of people on this, and I believe queer and other open labels are more popular among youth today, not less. I just searched Tumblr to test and virtually all the posts I'm seeing are in favor of identifying as queer, and the people who disagree are all saying "it's okay if you want to, but I don't like using the term myself". I saw one potential radfem, and even that post wasn't explicitly saying people couldn't use the term. I would hazard a guess that the "call out" culture for problematic things on Tumblr and the like is painting a distorted picture of a distorted picture.
Quote:
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,441
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Oh, yeah, sure, all of that is a fair appraisal. I think I overstated my case. I was certainly using unnecessary hyperbole.
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#32 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,364
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Forgive me if I missed it, but has the term "TERF" been defined? I'd rather not go to urbandictionary.com while I'm at work...
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#33 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,869
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Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
They seem to dislike all trans folk (from what I've heard and read), for opposite but expected reasons. 1) trans men are gender traitors 2) trans women are fakers barging into female only spaces |
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#34 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,364
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Thanks.
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#35 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,605
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The need to make up new acronyms every five minutes to universally group individual peoples different opinions is really beginning to get on my tits.
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__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#36 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,399
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However, it is often used widely by trans-activists to cover anyone who doesn't agree with the right to gender self-identification. This catches many feminists who are concerned about:
- whether gender self-identification will be abused - the impact on general gender equality, especially such things as equal pay, if gender is seen as a matter of choice |
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#37 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,822
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#38 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,770
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__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#39 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,605
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The need to group everyone comes from the uber left
You have so many acronyms and prefixes for different groups the left like to make up. Dudes who can't get dates have to have one, certain lesbians, certain feminists, certain men's right's, certain trans etc etc etc Cis for absolutely no reason Of course when people get thrust into these made up groups by left people who insist on having there will be backlash |
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#40 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,770
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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