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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 8th July 2018, 10:23 AM   #1
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TERFs crash London Pride

BBC News: Pride in London sorry after anti-trans protest

"Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said.

The group believes lesbian rights are attacked by the trans movement.

Pride said their behaviour on Saturday was "shocking and disgusting".

It said they could not forcibly remove the small group as their protest was not a criminal offence, adding "we are sorry".

A statement said: "The protest group showed a level of bigotry, ignorance and hate that is unacceptable." "
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:00 AM   #2
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:14 PM   #3
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Humans find reasons to hate other humans for being different. More News at 11.
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:27 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Humans find reasons to hate other humans for being different. More News at 11.
More like, "for not being the right kind of different".
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
More like, "for not being the right kind of different".
Indeed, they suggest the existence of transwomen is "forcing" lesbians to have sex with "men," while transmen are really butch lesbians being "forced" into transition.
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:54 AM   #6
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The open letter written in protest - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Lc/mobilebasic

The response from Pride - https://prideinlondon.org/news/2018/...-protest-group
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:34 AM   #7
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A very negligible minority! "... the actions of 8 people ...".
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:53 AM   #8
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So it's a... TERF war?

I'll get my coat.
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Indeed, they suggest the existence of transwomen is "forcing" lesbians to have sex with "men," while transmen are really butch lesbians being "forced" into transition.
I don't understand the problem. They assert that lesbians are same-sex attracted females. And that females do not have penises. That was all they did.

I've seen plenty of times that women like this are labeled "TERFS" and vilified for not being willing to accept transwomen as female sex partners. What is wrong with accepting reality? What is wrong with having sexual boundaries?
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Zygar View Post
I've seen plenty of times that women like this are labeled "TERFS" and vilified for not being willing to accept transwomen as female sex partners. What is wrong with accepting reality? What is wrong with having sexual boundaries?
That's not the issue. It's never been the issue.

If you think it is, please highlight some examples.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:06 PM   #11
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I thought the issue was that generally trans people are trying to fit into a specific gender and not just saying to the world that 'this is me, accept it or offski'.

the other parts of the movement are saying 'this is me, accept it or offski'.

the accusation is that trans are therefore conservative or something and shouldn't be in the group, who knows.

Last edited by p0lka; 9th July 2018 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:43 PM   #12
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This is what every body keeps telling the alt left will happen when you insist on putting everyone into groups
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is what every body keeps telling the alt left will happen when you insist on putting everyone into groups

It's ALT-right and CTRL-left.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:55 PM   #14
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From the trans point of view, at what point in the transition are they properly entitled to recognition as a lesbian for sexual purposes?

After they identify but before they start transitioning?

After starting the transition, but before any SRS?

Ever?

Is there any reason the lesbian in question should *not* be the only arbiter of what origin stories she's willing to consider in her sexual partners?

Right now, the thing has a bit of an incel feel to it, for lack of a better word. Transwomen acting like they're entitled to sex, and damn these women for not doing the right thing and putting out.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:18 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
That's not the issue. It's never been the issue.

If you think it is, please highlight some examples.
I'm not going to claim they are bringing the issue up in good faith, but the group from the OP did give examples in their leaflets (see second page here). The debate on the cotton ceiling is a real one even among trans activists.

This article seems give give a broad and balanced overview of the other issues, particularly in the UK.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:28 PM   #16
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Cotton ceiling seems like a weird name for it.

It's unfortunate for those who have transitioned but the reality is that people mostly don't want to date someone trans, they want to date someone who is cis. That's not "transphobic", either.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's ALT-right and CTRL-left.
You can try that but it won't work
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Right now, the thing has a bit of an incel feel to it, for lack of a better word. Transwomen acting like they're entitled to sex, and damn these women for not doing the right thing and putting out.
Not sure how you get that. The protest group in question specifically claimed that lesbians were somehow being "forced" to have sex with "men" in terms of transwomen who are lesbians. They didn't add any qualification or nuance to it, other than a general attitude of "Y chromosome - yew!" When you couple that with their suggestion that transmen are actually wrong-labelled butch lesbians "forced" into transition, they're basically exhibiting exactly the same denialist prejudices as a lot of straights have towards transgender people, as well as - ironically - gays and lesbians.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the trans point of view, at what point in the transition are they properly entitled to recognition as a lesbian for sexual purposes?

After they identify but before they start transitioning?

After starting the transition, but before any SRS?

Ever?

Is there any reason the lesbian in question should *not* be the only arbiter of what origin stories she's willing to consider in her sexual partners?

Right now, the thing has a bit of an incel feel to it, for lack of a better word. Transwomen acting like they're entitled to sex, and damn these women for not doing the right thing and putting out.

Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the partners they may or may not be attracted to, any more than it does for the cisgendered.

This preoccupation with some purported sexual aggression of transwomen against ciswomen is remarkably reminiscent of the paranoia that the racist white men would have about black men being after their white womenfolk.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the partners they may or may not be attracted to, any more than it does for the cisgendered.

This preoccupation with some purported sexual aggression of transwomen against ciswomen is remarkably reminiscent of the paranoia that the racist white men would have about black men being after their white womenfolk.
My mistake. I thought it was lesbians preoccupied with the expectation that they take transwomen as lovers with the same willingness that they take ciswomen as lovers.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My mistake. I thought it was lesbians preoccupied with the expectation that they take transwomen as lovers with the same willingness that they take ciswomen as lovers.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

You may be right, and that would be just as weird.

Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with what other people's expectations are as far as who they would want for partners.

Anyone who is transgender is going to be very aware of the fact that most of the cisgendered are going to view them as unattractive for partners, regardless of their sexual preferences.

Their expectations are going to be very low in all cases, despite what some lesbians might believe.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:57 AM   #22
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The part that burns my biscuits is how the TERF types got half the youngins on the internet to buy into their "Queer is a slur!" BS. The folks from the 80s are having to step up all the time to explain to kids who heard it on Facebook that hey, ok, if you don't like the word 'Queer' that's fine, you don't have to use it, but don't go telling people who identify as Queer that they're not allowed to, and also please learn some history and context.

I get the impression that TERFs and other gatekeepers hate "Queer" because it's an umbrella term that doesn't require you to pick alphabet soup letters and get into your correct pigeonhole. You can be Queer before (and after!) you're sure exactly what you are.

(Mentioning it cause the group mentioned in the OP had a big "lesbian not queer" sign.)

Last edited by Lithrael; 11th July 2018 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:27 PM   #23
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Sounds like we need an updated version of the song, National Brotherhood Week; we could call it National Intersectional Week.

"And everybody hates the straights!"
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Sounds like we need an updated version of the song, National Brotherhood Week; we could call it National Intersectional Week.

"And everybody hates the straights!"
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
The part that burns my biscuits is how the TERF types got half the youngins on the internet to buy into their "Queer is a slur!" BS. The folks from the 80s are having to step up all the time to explain to kids who heard it on Facebook that hey, ok, if you don't like the word 'Queer' that's fine, you don't have to use it, but don't go telling people who identify as Queer that they're not allowed to, and also please learn some history and context.

I get the impression that TERFs and other gatekeepers hate "Queer" because it's an umbrella term that doesn't require you to pick alphabet soup letters and get into your correct pigeonhole. You can be Queer before (and after!) you're sure exactly what you are.

(Mentioning it cause the group mentioned in the OP had a big "lesbian not queer" sign.)
Eh, I don't think is due to TERF rhetoric (there were only 8 people here after all). I think you are unfairly dismissing the history and context of the people who hear it as a slur. We don't actually have one shared or "legitimate" experience or history, and we didn't all get together and agree on "reclaiming".

I also question if it is a generational divide where it was accepted previously and now is being questioned by those who "don't know their history". My experience has been the opposite, and young people are less likely to want specific labels.

I don't think I've met anyone who actually told someone they couldn't identify as queer, but I don't think the frustration people can have is bigotry when the identity can lead to silliness like "Can Straight People Be Queer?"
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:33 PM   #26
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I'm certainly not gonna say your mileage can't vary, but I see over and over people on Tumblr etc making some commentary on why they like to identify themselves as queer, and getting younger folks replying to say "Don't you know queer is a slur and you shouldn't use it on people who aren't comfortable with being called a slur." And OP is left going "I literally.. was saying I like to use it.. on myself... Do you really feel the need to come in here and tell me my chosen self-identification is a slur?"

It's a new-ish phenomenon, seems to have started around 2014 when Tumblr got tired of policing fandom and decided to try policing identity politics.

I feel like I'm completely fairly dismissing the history and context of the people who hear it as a slur in the context of trying to police the word. For one thing, all words you can use as that kind of self-identifier have been used as slurs. For another, queer does indeed have a broadly shared positive context - from "We're here, we're queer, get used to it," to ubiquitous use in academics alongside the LGBT type acronyms. Not universal, no, but nothing is.

Last edited by Lithrael; 11th July 2018 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:37 PM   #27
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I'm certainly not gonna say your mileage can't vary, but I see over and over people on Tumblr etc making some commentary on why they like to identify themselves as queer, and getting younger folks replying to say "Don't you know queer is a slur and you shouldn't use it on people who aren't comfortable with being called a slur." And OP is left going "I literally.. was saying I like to use it.. on myself... Do you really feel the need to come in here and tell me my chosen self-identification is a slur?"

It's a new-ish phenomenon, seems to have started around 2014 when Tumblr got tired of policing fandom and decided to try policing identity politics.

I feel like I'm completely fairly dismissing the history and context of the people who hear it as a slur in the context of trying to police the word. For one thing, all words you can use as that kind of self-identifier have been used as slurs. For another, queer does indeed have a broadly shared positive context - from "We're here, we're queer, get used to it," to ubiquitous use in academics alongside the LGBT type acronyms. Not universal, no, but nothing is.
Yeah, treating interactions on Tumblr as representative of anything is a terrible, horrible, awful idea. I refuse to, lest I become an alt-right TERF because it is so full of absolute nonsense. You might call it "policing", but I would call it disagreeing in the strategy or practice of "reclaiming" or nebulous meta-umbrella terms. There are people who "reclaim" faggot, tranny, etc. and a lot of people who disagree. There are people who debate if straight people can be queer. Arguing based on a "history" or "context" that you are assuming they are unaware of seems like a pointless detour in order to dismiss.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:28 PM   #29
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I'm not saying BS on tumblr is representative of anything but tumblr, but on tumblr that is a thing and it seems to have started with TERFs taking advantage of young SJW types and been used to harass a lot of folks there that identify as queer/trans.

Do you really disagree that 'queer' has built up a pretty serious history and tradition of positive connotations probably second only to 'gay' as a word that's also traditionally an insult? The others you mention really don't compare.

Again, I only bring this up at all cause the TERF group in the OP had a "lesbian not queer" banner and I associate TERFs with bashing on people who like to identify as queer.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I'm not saying BS on tumblr is representative of anything but tumblr, but on tumblr that is a thing and it seems to have started with TERFs taking advantage of young SJW types and been used to harass a lot of folks there that identify as queer/trans.

Do you really disagree that 'queer' has built up a pretty serious history and tradition of positive connotations probably second only to 'gay' as a word that's also traditionally an insult? The others you mention really don't compare.
I'm saying people in disagreed with reclaiming "queer" as an umbrella term since people started doing it. I remember people debating it in the local LGBT club in real life a decade ago. The history of positive connotations is, again, not universal, and I still fail to see how that actually responds to the concerns of people who disagree with it.

I also disagree that TERFs have convinced a significant number of people on this, and I believe queer and other open labels are more popular among youth today, not less. I just searched Tumblr to test and virtually all the posts I'm seeing are in favor of identifying as queer, and the people who disagree are all saying "it's okay if you want to, but I don't like using the term myself". I saw one potential radfem, and even that post wasn't explicitly saying people couldn't use the term.

I would hazard a guess that the "call out" culture for problematic things on Tumblr and the like is painting a distorted picture of a distorted picture.

Quote:
Again, I only bring this up at all cause the TERF group in the OP had a "lesbian not queer" banner and I associate TERFs with bashing on people who like to identify as queer.
I've never seen "bashing" in the wild, but I think this is like associating people who advocate for male victims of abuse with MRAs. Sure, lots of MRAs will raise the issue, but most people who care about male victims of abuse aren't MRAs.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:17 PM   #31
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Oh, yeah, sure, all of that is a fair appraisal. I think I overstated my case. I was certainly using unnecessary hyperbole.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:58 PM   #32
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Forgive me if I missed it, but has the term "TERF" been defined? I'd rather not go to urbandictionary.com while I'm at work...
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:13 PM   #33
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Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist

They seem to dislike all trans folk (from what I've heard and read), for opposite but expected reasons.

1) trans men are gender traitors
2) trans women are fakers barging into female only spaces

Last edited by pharphis; 11th July 2018 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:13 PM   #34
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Thanks.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:39 AM   #35
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The need to make up new acronyms every five minutes to universally group individual peoples different opinions is really beginning to get on my tits.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist

They seem to dislike all trans folk (from what I've heard and read), for opposite but expected reasons.

1) trans men are gender traitors
2) trans women are fakers barging into female only spaces
However, it is often used widely by trans-activists to cover anyone who doesn't agree with the right to gender self-identification. This catches many feminists who are concerned about:
- whether gender self-identification will be abused
- the impact on general gender equality, especially such things as equal pay, if gender is seen as a matter of choice
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
However, it is often used widely by trans-activists to cover anyone who doesn't agree with the right to gender self-identification. This catches many feminists who are concerned about:
- whether gender self-identification will be abused
Which is the main largely - if not wholly - unfounded claim made by right-wingers. Talk about unholy alliances....
Quote:
- the impact on general gender equality, especially such things as equal pay, if gender is seen as a matter of choice
Because obviously they don't want anything that can pull the rug from under their victimhood.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:31 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is what every body keeps telling the alt left will happen when you insist on putting everyone into groups
What has this to do with "the alt left" or "alt right"?
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:13 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What has this to do with "the alt left" or "alt right"?
The need to group everyone comes from the uber left

You have so many acronyms and prefixes for different groups the left like to make up.

Dudes who can't get dates have to have one, certain lesbians, certain feminists, certain men's right's, certain trans etc etc etc

Cis for absolutely no reason

Of course when people get thrust into these made up groups by left people who insist on having there will be backlash
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:19 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The need to group everyone comes from the uber left

You have so many acronyms and prefixes for different groups the left like to make up.

Dudes who can't get dates have to have one, certain lesbians, certain feminists, certain men's right's, certain trans etc etc etc

Cis for absolutely no reason

Of course when people get thrust into these made up groups by left people who insist on having there will be backlash
Still not understanding how this is a fault of the "left" and not a fault of all extremism, whether right, left, liberal and so on.
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