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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 9th July 2018, 04:53 PM   #801
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is an interesting article. Thank you for the link.
And thanks for your very interesting post.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:47 PM   #802
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I must add that the color commentary is also very entertaining. Insightful at times, too.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:32 PM   #803
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is an interesting article. Thank you for the link.

However, it doesn't do what you seem to have intended it to do, which is to explain why and on what basis Trump's legal team has "debriefed all of Mueller's witnesses".

A "joint defense agreement" is usually an agreement between multiple lawyers and the defendants .
SCREEECCHHHHHH!

Hey you are welcome for the article! Gotta ask you a serious question.

Did you read it?

Because the article was talking about targets, not just defendants.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:03 AM   #804
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
SCREEECCHHHHHH!

Hey you are welcome for the article! Gotta ask you a serious question.

Did you read it?

Yes, quite carefully. That's why I was able to select a quote from it

Quote:

Because the article was talking about targets, not just defendants.

And witnesses. It also talked about witnesses. But it didn't seem to be particularly relevant to whatever point you were trying to make.

Maybe you should read it.

Aside from that, do you have any responses to the questions I raised?
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:43 AM   #805
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hoo boy, the Poet thinks it is odd that the subjects/targets of a federal investigation enter into a joint defense agreement?
No. Try reading what he wrote.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:10 AM   #806
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And here I thought "Twist and Shout" was just a song, not a strategy.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:19 AM   #807
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yes, quite carefully. That's why I was able to select a quote from it
Then why did you claim that such agreements "were usually an agreement between multiple lawyers and the defendants in a trial" which was directly inconsistent with the article.

Explain.
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:52 AM   #808
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Trump Tweets

"I am on Air Force One flying to NATO and hear reports that the FBI lovers, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page are getting cold feet on testifying about the Rigged Witch Hunt headed by 13 Angry Democrats and people that worked for Obama for 8 years. Total disgrace!"
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:09 AM   #809
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"I am on Air Force One flying to NATO and hear reports that the FBI lovers, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page are getting cold feet on testifying about the Rigged Witch Hunt headed by 13 Angry Democrats and people that worked for Obama for 8 years. Total disgrace!"
I can totally believe that one of his stooges told him that. Does not mean it has any connection to reality.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:28 AM   #810
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"I am on Air Force One flying to NATO and hear reports that the FBI lovers, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page are getting cold feet on testifying about the Rigged Witch Hunt headed by 13 Angry Democrats and people that worked for Obama for 8 years. Total disgrace!"
Does anyone else find it a little hypocritical for Trump to be accusing others of having 'cold feet' when his own lawyer (Guiliani) is doing all he can to limit the chance of Trump testifying?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8435961.html
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:35 AM   #811
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Does anyone else find it a little hypocritical for Trump to be accusing others of having 'cold feet' when his own lawyer (Guiliani) is doing all he can to limit the chance of Trump testifying?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8435961.html
I find it extremely hypocritical.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:37 AM   #812
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Let's not forget that Strzok has already testified in a closed-door session. Then the Republicans leaked parts of his testimony, which made him look bad while saying that he doesn't believe in transparency. Strzok's lawyer then asked for all the testimony to be made public, in order for full transparency. When that didn't happen, Strzok's lawyer asked for Strzok to have a copy of the testimony so that he could prepare for the second session. Again, this didn't come to pass.

So I'm not altogether surprised Strzok is feeling a little less like testifying again than he otherwise might have been. Assuming that that's true, of course. Trump doesn't have a great track record when it comes to telling the truth.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #813
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"I am on Air Force One flying to NATO and hear reports that the FBI lovers, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page are getting cold feet on testifying about the Rigged Witch Hunt headed by 13 Angry Democrats and people that worked for Obama for 8 years. Total disgrace!"
It is totally disgraceful that he's flying in the Air Force One. Shameful display.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:38 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It is totally disgraceful that he's flying in the Air Force One. Shameful display.
It costs him less.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:19 PM   #815
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Flynn sentencing due in Aug.

Today: Michael Flynn is cooperating with Mueller and eager to have case wrap up, court hears
Quote:
In a joint reply to the judge, prosecutor Brandon Van Grack and Flynn attorney Kelner had said that although they still wanted to postpone sentencing and could update Sullivan again about timing on Aug. 24, they had asked to launch the pre-sentence investigation because it would eventually help the court schedule move more quickly.

Prosecutors typically postpone sentencing for witnesses until their cooperation — including testimony before a grand jury or at trial — no longer is needed, and routinely do so jointly with cooperating defendants in submitting periodic status reports with a sentencing judge.

The August date "may come and go. That's fine as well, the court is not going to pressure parties to sentencing," Sullivan said. But whenever they did want to proceed, the judge said he could "schedule sentencing in 60 days, as opposed to the traditional 90 days."

"We would certainly welcome that, your honor," Kelner said.

"The government would welcome that too," Van Grack said.

If a 60-day clock for sentencing were to start on Aug. 24, that could see Flynn sentenced before November's Congressional elections.
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:53 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Then why did you claim that such agreements "were usually an agreement between multiple lawyers and the defendants in a trial" which was directly inconsistent with the article.

I said it was "usually" defendants in a trial. Which is true. Also true for potential defendants.
Quote:

Explain.

Perhaps you should go first, since you chose the article.

But I will offer this.

For starters, I also offered a citation in my response, one which more directly addressed the nature of a "joint defense agreement". That is an element which needs to be included.

As far as the article you cited is concerned, the entire thing is based on a hypothetical defense.

Reading down through it you will find this expansion on the constant theme, discussing in more depth the relevance of a "joint defense agreement";

Quote:
As currently construed, so long as the parties have a common interest and have engaged in a joint effort to defend their clients in actual or potential litigation, the joint defense privilege permits them to share materials without losing the protections of the attorney-client or attorney work product privileges.

The benefits offered by a joint defense agreement can be significant. While client and counsel can gain access to facts, documents, experts and strategies to defend the case, the client is also assured that his or her attorney’s duty of undivided loyalty to the client continues. The client’s interest in confidentiality is protected because whatever materials are shared among the joint defense group cannot (theoretically) be disclosed to any third parties. Moreover, even if those joint defense materials are subpoenaed or sought through other compulsive means, the typical joint defense agreement requires the party receiving the subpoena to notify the other joint defense members and assert any rights and privileges that would protect the materials from disclosure. With those safeguards in place, sharing materials in a joint defense agreement should not make them significantly more vulnerable to disclosure than they otherwise would have been had they not been disclosed pursuant to that agreement.

Nowhere in the entire article is there any mention of witnesses being parties to a "joint defense agreement". In fact, the most prominent mention of witnesses is a warning that the lawyers involved in a "joint defense agreement" should exercise caution to ...
Quote:
avoid even the appearance of witness tampering or obstruction of justice

... when interviewing witnesses.

A particular caution which has singular relevance to the subject under discussion.

Now it's your turn. Perhaps you will point specifically to the sections of the article you have chosen to cite which bear the most relevance to the assertions you are making.

Also, it would be interesting to see your responses to the questions I posed.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 10th July 2018 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:23 PM   #817
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I said it was "usually" defendants in a trial. Which is true. Also true for potential defendants.
I see that after I started typing my response you realized that Mueller's action was a criminal action and therefore edited your post. Good catch!

JDA's apply to targets, subjects and/or defendants in:

Quote:
As currently construed, so long as the parties have a common interest and have engaged in a joint effort to defend their clients in actual or potential litigation
Thus under no circumstances is there a requirement that an indictment be returned. The article makes this spectacularly clear. Do you understand this? Yes or No.

I am not going to walk people through basic principles that have already been thoroughly explained.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:02 PM   #818
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Hannity: Trump is being framed after Clinton wasn't prosecuted, all a plot, the dossier, yada yada.

Ingraham comes on to defend Kavanaugh and accuse all liberal federal judges of legislating from the bench. She reads various Hollywood Tweets in a sarcastic voice.

It's insane.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:47 AM   #819
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Perhaps you should go first, since you chose the article.
Good luck. He can't even say what he thinks "debriefed" means in this context.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:10 AM   #820
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's what they say about him. I hate that term because it sounds almost benign, even charming. It's one thing to weave a tall tale. It's another to simply spout off something important that is as likely to be false as it might be true.

Trump is not a BSer. He's a liar. He deliberately tells falsehoods and he is totally reckless with the facts. It is not charming, it is disgusting. Trump is dishonest to the core.

I agree. BSer sounds rather more frivolous than this situation. Perhaps it's appropriate when we talk about someone who cares not a bit about truth down at the local pub, but this is the President of the United States. So-called BS is genuinely dangerous.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:27 PM   #821
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
JDA's apply to targets, subjects and/or defendants ...
In which of those categories do you include witnesses?
Quote:
... in:

Quote:
As currently construed, so long as the parties have a common interest and have engaged in a joint effort to defend their clients in actual or potential litigation
Said parties being lawyers, not witnesses.


Quote:
Thus under no circumstances is there a requirement that an indictment be returned. The article makes this spectacularly clear. Do you understand this? Yes or No.
Of course people can be witnesses without there being an indictment. That's hardly the point, is it?

Quote:
I am not going to walk people through basic principles that have already been thoroughly explained.
Nobody'd be fool enough to follow you.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:35 PM   #822
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rubs temples....

folks, you realize that subjects and targets and defendants are all also "witnesses"?

I mean, y'all get that right?

By the way, did anyone actually look at Rudy's entire comments? (TBD did, it seems no one else did).

Quote:
“I have a pretty good idea because I have seen all the documents that they have,” Giuliani said. “We have debriefed all their witnesses. And we have pressed them numerous times.”

“You have debriefed all of their witnesses?” Bash asked.

“I think so, I mean, the ones that were — the ones that were involved in the joint defense agreement, which constitutes all the critical ones,” Giuliani replied.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6c2eb755c9f9

Thanks for bringing the facts TBD!
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:59 PM   #823
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Trump Tweets

"Ex-FBI LAYER Lisa Page today defied a House of Representatives issued Subpoena to testify before Congress! Wow, but is anybody really surprised! Together with her lover, FBI Agent Peter Strzok, she worked on the Rigged Witch Hunt, perhaps the most tainted and corrupt case EVER!"
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:30 PM   #824
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I love that Trump believes that this is a witch hunt that will produce no evidence of collusion, but also he needs to "debrief" people to bolster his defense. How do people believe anything this clueless tit says?
Come now, tits are wonderful, with several fine characteristics.

Trump is a tit? I ask you sir, what has a tit ever done to you?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:49 PM   #825
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

I love that Trump believes that this is a witch hunt that will produce no evidence of collusion, but also he needs to "debrief" people to bolster his defense. How do people believe anything this clueless tit says?
Call me crazy, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for an innocent person to simultaneously proclaim their innocence, and try to mount a strong legal defense.

It remains to be seen if Trump really is innocent, but why would you not expect an innocent person to do those two things?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:57 PM   #826
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Call me crazy, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for an innocent person to simultaneously proclaim their innocence, and try to mount a strong legal defense.

It remains to be seen if Trump really is innocent, but why would you not expect an innocent person to do those two things?
But that ISN'T what Trump is doing. He is calling the investigation into Russian interference in US elections a 'witch hunt' which it clearly is not. He is saying that there is nothing that should make anyone highly suspicious when in fact there is a lot of highly suspicious activity by Flynn, Manafort, Sessions, Don Jr., himself and others.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:06 PM   #827
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Trump Tweets

"How can the Rigged Witch Hunt proceed when it was started, influenced and worked on, for an extended period of time, by former FBI Agent/Lover Peter Strzok? Read his hate filled and totally biased Emails and the answer is clear!"

Do you think he is tweeting this live from Europe or did he leave a few for someone to tweet for him at regular intervals?
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:33 PM   #828
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"How can the Rigged Witch Hunt proceed when it was started, influenced and worked on, for an extended period of time, by former FBI Agent/Lover Peter Strzok? Read his hate filled and totally biased Emails and the answer is clear!"

Do you think he is tweeting this live from Europe or did he leave a few for someone to tweet for him at regular intervals?
I doubt even the president of the United States has anything as sophisticated as a global communications network that integrates with a handheld radio to allow him to send brief text messages to the public from anywhere in the world.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:49 PM   #829
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But that ISN'T what Trump is doing. He is calling the investigation into Russian interference in US elections a 'witch hunt' which it clearly is not. He is saying that there is nothing that should make anyone highly suspicious when in fact there is a lot of highly suspicious activity by Flynn, Manafort, Sessions, Don Jr., himself and others.
Exactly.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:53 PM   #830
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"Ex-FBI LAYER Lisa Page today defied a House of Representatives issued Subpoena to testify before Congress! Wow, but is anybody really surprised! Together with her lover, FBI Agent Peter Strzok, she worked on the Rigged Witch Hunt, perhaps the most tainted and corrupt case EVER!"
Those were close to Hannity's exact words yesterday.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:55 PM   #831
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"How can the Rigged Witch Hunt proceed when it was started, influenced and worked on, for an extended period of time, by former FBI Agent/Lover Peter Strzok? Read his hate filled and totally biased Emails and the answer is clear!"

Do you think he is tweeting this live from Europe or did he leave a few for someone to tweet for him at regular intervals?
Someone TIVOed* Hannity for him and he Tweeted after watching yesterday's show.

*Or On-demand or whatever.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:14 PM   #832
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Come now, tits are wonderful, with several fine characteristics.

Trump is a tit? I ask you sir, what has a tit ever done to you?
Lol I will admit when I am wrong. I have never had a negative experience with a tit that I can remember. You are correct.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:27 PM   #833
theprestige
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Exactly.
Exactly? Manafort is being prosecuted for stuff unrelated to the actual investigation. Flynn's on the hook for a process crime, over something that isn't actually suspicious at all. What am I missing?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:19 PM   #834
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly? Manafort is being prosecuted for stuff unrelated to the actual investigation. Flynn's on the hook for a process crime, over something that isn't actually suspicious at all. What am I missing?
Let me see:
you have two people you find out used to shoplift ... and then someone put them in charge of the biggest candy-store in the world.
Wouldn't you do an inventory check, just to be sure? And ask their employer why they got the job?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:21 PM   #835
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly? Manafort is being prosecuted for stuff unrelated to the actual investigation. Flynn's on the hook for a process crime, over something that isn't actually suspicious at all. What am I missing?
The fact that Manafort was acting as a Russian agent while serving as Trump's campaign manager is most certainly related to the investigation.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:29 PM   #836
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The fact that Manafort was acting as a Russian agent while serving as Trump's campaign manager is most certainly related to the investigation.
To be fair Giuliani and Flynn also failed to comply with FARA. Hell Flynn plotted with his large adult son to kidnap an American citizen and turn that person over to Turkey and neither he nor junior have been charged with anything to do with that as well for some reason. There seems to be a common factor amongst those advising Daft Taft.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:35 PM   #837
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Let me see:
you have two people you find out used to shoplift ... and then someone put them in charge of the biggest candy-store in the world.
Wouldn't you do an inventory check, just to be sure? And ask their employer why they got the job?
Arguments by analogy don't interest me. Discuss the thing in its own terms, or not at all.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:26 PM   #838
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly? Manafort is being prosecuted for stuff unrelated to the actual investigation. Flynn's on the hook for a process crime, over something that isn't actually suspicious at all. What am I missing?
You keep bringing up this "process crime" thing for those who are cooperating. That's what they pled *down* to. What other bigger charges were they facing, which lead to accepting the charge(s) now on the books?

That plot of Flynn 'n kin to kidnap a Turkish cleric and turn him over to Erdogan, for a million bucks or two. Could be there was legal jeopardy there. To name just one potential charge not now levied in exchange for his cooperation.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:23 AM   #839
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks for bringing the facts TBD!
While you're in a fact-bringing mood, can you explain what you believe the word "debriefed" means in this context?
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:28 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Arguments by analogy don't interest me. Discuss the thing in its own terms, or not at all.
evasion.
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