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Old 9th July 2018, 07:04 PM   #161
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Bush Poll: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...mpeaching_bush

Obama Poll: https://www.politico.com/story/2014/...percent-109369

Trump Poll: https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/22/polit...oll/index.html

The articles of impeachment for George Bush were introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich. The attempt to introduce impeachment articles for Dick Chaney was also by Kucinich.

I'm not sure what "mainstream support" you mean other than the raw numbers.
I was talking about bills introduced, not public opinion.

If the public was rational we wouldn't have this nightmare as a backlash to a black POTUS.

So anti-war Kucinich was brave enough to call Bush and Cheney on torture and lying us into a war. Good for him.

I don't see how that lessens the act of impeachment by making it trivial.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:09 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was talking about bills introduced, not public opinion.
*Confused* Okay. Well I wasn't. I'm talking about the revisionist claim that Bush wasn't as opposed as strongly or with as much vigor as Trump and nothing, public support, support for impeachment, etc, really backs that up.

Again I get that people have to pretend they weren't as hard on Bush as they are on Trump so as to maintain the "This time it's different and we mean it" but they... were.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:16 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are people's memories really that short?
Is yours?

I remember John McCain being a perfectly acceptable option until he brought that Tea Party nitwit onto his ticket. I remember Bob Dole being a good option that I was torn about. I remember voting for Bush Sr.

Be carful when picking those cherries.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:18 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But we did impeach a POTUS for cheating on the election, for breaking laws for his own personal gain (getting elected).
No we didn't.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:24 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No we didn't.
But we would have, if he hadn't quit following the House committee vote to forward impeachment to the floor.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:25 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But we would have
Probably. Nevertheless, we didn't.
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:26 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No we didn't.
Let's waste a page or two on a semantics sidetrack. Not like everyone didn't know what I was taking about.

Tell me what difference does your semantic time waste make in the discussion?
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Old 9th July 2018, 07:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The connection is that it's a homosexual act...

Wow, what? It's a sexual act. There's nothing exclusively or even primarily homosexual about blowjobs.

Quote:
...that's cast as a degrading act of submission.

Again, this is the point of the insult, I think.
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Old 9th July 2018, 08:04 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I particularly liked stories shortly after inauguration about Trump doing some terrible thing, only to have it turn out to be standard operating procedure. Like the resignation of all those Obama-appointed ambassadors.

Good times, good times.
The resignations weren't the issue. It was the knowledge that he wouldn't replace them. You can feel free to substitute your own reality, but we were right. Have you seen how many open positions there are, with nobody nominated?
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Old 9th July 2018, 08:15 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Let's waste a page or two on a semantics sidetrack. Not like everyone didn't know what I was taking about.
You made a mistake. I have no way of knowing if that mistake was you not knowing the truth, or just expressing yourself badly. And it doesnít take pages if you simply acknowledge the mistake and move on. Or even just ignore it and move on. Perhaps you arenít up to that challenge, though.
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Old 9th July 2018, 08:16 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Wow, what? It's a sexual act. There's nothing exclusively or even primarily homosexual about blowjobs.
There is when itís a man giving another man a blow job.
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Old 9th July 2018, 08:27 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You made a mistake. I have no way of knowing if that mistake was you not knowing the truth, or just expressing yourself badly. And it doesnít take pages if you simply acknowledge the mistake and move on. Or even just ignore it and move on. Perhaps you arenít up to that challenge, though.
Oh for pity's sake. Everyone knows the specifics.
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Old 9th July 2018, 09:16 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Everyone knows the specifics.
And yet, you still screwed it up.
And canít admit it and move on.

Sad.
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Old 9th July 2018, 09:45 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, you still screwed it up.
And canít admit it and move on.

Sad.
No Zig, no one screwed anything up. No one needed pedantic details to understand the point.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:59 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, you still screwed it up.
And canít admit it and move on.

Sad.
Physician, heal thyself
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:15 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There is when itís a man giving another man a blow job.

And yet still not the point.
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:18 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A July 7, 2007 poll put 39% of people approving of impeaching President Bush and removing him from office. On June 11th of 2008 thirty five articles of impeachment were actually introduced to the House, voted down 251 to 166. An impeachment resolution was also submitted for Vice President Dick Chaney, but never made it out of committee.

A July 7, 2014 poll put 33% of people approving of impeaching President Obama and removing him from office.

A Jun 22, 2018 poll put 42% of people approving of impeaching President Trump and removing him from office.

Where's this massive shift from crazy fringe to mainstream?
I must admit that I didn't recall 166 votes to impeach Bush.

It sure seems a lot crazier now, but maybe it's just me getting older.
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:47 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I must admit that I didn't recall 166 votes to impeach Bush.

It sure seems a lot crazier now, but maybe it's just me getting older.
And that's what I'm saying.

Trump is a monster. And the people pointing that out now have to create a revisionist history where they didn't say that about the last guy because they don't want to deal with the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" problem (or they read the Boy Who Cried Wolf and somehow came away with the moral that in the end the kid either should have told the village "No you remember it wrong I didn't cry wolf all those other times, this is the first time I'm crying wolf for realzies" or should just added a "But I mean it this time!" to the last time he cried wolf.)

People that keep pointing out that Trump actually is a monster are massively missing the point.
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's what I'm saying.

Trump is a monster. And the people pointing that out now have to create a revisionist history where they didn't say that about the last guy because they don't want to deal with the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" problem (or they read the Boy Who Cried Wolf and somehow came away with the moral that in the end the kid either should have told the village "No you remember it wrong I didn't cry wolf all those other times, this is the first time I'm crying wolf for realzies" or should just added a "But I mean it this time!" to the last time he cried wolf.)

People that keep pointing out that Trump actually a monster are massively missing the point.
I'd categorize it less as a "boy who cried wolf" problem than as an addiction problem. They need to keep upping the outrage dose to get the same high.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:09 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's what I'm saying.

Trump is a monster. And the people pointing that out now have to create a revisionist history where they didn't say that about the last guy because they don't want to deal with the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" problem (or they read the Boy Who Cried Wolf and somehow came away with the moral that in the end the kid either should have told the village "No you remember it wrong I didn't cry wolf all those other times, this is the first time I'm crying wolf for realzies" or should just added a "But I mean it this time!" to the last time he cried wolf.)
That's quite the strawman you've got there.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People that keep pointing out that Trump actually is a monster are massively missing the point.
Has it occurred to you that people aren't missing your point, but simply don't agree with it? Perhaps you are missing the problems with your own argument because you are ignoring what others are saying about it?
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:26 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What is the most sigificant damage, in real, measurable terms, that Trump has done to American alliances? Obviously he hasn't yet destroyed NATO. The UNSC seems to be in no danger of falling apart. NAFTA, last time I checked, wasn't going anywhere. About the worst thing he's done, treaty-wise, was fail to underwrite Ukrainian security, something the US had promised to do as part of the agreement that split up the USSR.
Well, in a rather pathetic way, you're sort of right: the "most significant damage" that Trump has done to American alliances is unmeasurable. Unfortunately, there is little chance that we'll escape paying the price, nonetheless. However, if you that's your best understanding of measurable damage caused by Trump's disastrous foreign policies, you must have missed things like the price increases, layoffs, and stock market losses that his trade war have already caused and the $0.30 jump in gas prices when he pulled out of the Iran deal. Some losses, such as billions of dollars in lost tourism, may not seem "significant" unless they affect you personally, but they are nonetheless real and measurable, and they add up. "The hidden costs of the Trump administrationís foreign policy" may be hard to quantify, but they are likewise real. So are the opportunity costs of having such chaos and uncertainty, not just in our trade policies but in our entire relationship to the rest of the world.

It's possible that simply ousting our ignorant, irrational, incoherent, immature, bigoted and xenophobic occupier of the position previously known as "leader of the free world" in 2020 will begin to repair some of the damage. If we fail to do that, however, much of the damage will become permanent, because Trump will have succeeded in making America "great" again like it never was before.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:33 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
However, if you that's your best understanding of measurable damage caused by Trump's disastrous foreign policies, you must have missed things like the price increases, layoffs, and stock market losses that his trade war have already caused and the $0.30 jump in gas prices when he pulled out of the Iran deal. Some losses, such as billions of dollars in lost tourism, may not seem "significant" unless they affect you personally, but they are nonetheless real and measurable, and they add up.
Here's what you're dealing with:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If the greatest catastrophe of Trump's first term is that soybean farmers have a bad year, it will probably the grandest presidency in modern times, and well worth trying again.
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:22 AM   #183
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Putin's efforts are paying off
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:03 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's what I'm saying.

Trump is a monster. And the people pointing that out now have to create a revisionist history where they didn't say that about the last guy because they don't want to deal with the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" problem (or they read the Boy Who Cried Wolf and somehow came away with the moral that in the end the kid either should have told the village "No you remember it wrong I didn't cry wolf all those other times, this is the first time I'm crying wolf for realzies" or should just added a "But I mean it this time!" to the last time he cried wolf.)

People that keep pointing out that Trump actually is a monster are massively missing the point.
Hey Bush was also a monster, but we had to stop caring about things like torturing innocent people to death. Now he is just this guy because that is now acceptable in a political leader.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:53 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's so funny to see liberals trying to make homophobic jokes.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why is gay sex such a popular metaphor for degradation, among progressives?

I realize that I'm way late to this but you two are the ones that added homophobia to the analogy.

As it stood it was just a subservient sex analogy. It did not rely on the sex of anyone. It would have worked if either party was either sex. If both of the players being male jumped out to you guys that is on you.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:55 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey Bush was also a monster, but we had to stop caring about things like torturing innocent people to death. Now he is just this guy because that is now acceptable in a political leader.

There is a laundry list of "worst things about Trump winning". Literally 100s of objectively bad things happened.

The worst has to be the 2 illegitimate Supreme Court seats we have to deal with for 40 years.

But what you have pointed out is surely in the top 5. And that is this: Trump has normalized W.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:03 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The worst has to be the 2 illegitimate Supreme Court seats we have to deal with for 40 years.
"Illegitimate" is not the right word. "Suspect", maybe, or "seated due to foreign/Russian influence".

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
But what you have pointed out is surely in the top 5. And that is this: Trump has normalized W.
Not to be a broken record, but I don't think "normalized" is the right word either. Torture, I hope, has not been normalized in the US. Obama, at least, put a stop to that and Trump, as far as I'm aware, has not restarted it. Praised and celebrated it, sure. Reinstituted it, no.

"Overshadowed", perhaps?
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:32 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Not to be a broken record, but I don't think "normalized" is the right word either. Torture, I hope, has not been normalized in the US. Obama, at least, put a stop to that and Trump, as far as I'm aware, has not restarted it. Praised and celebrated it, sure. Reinstituted it, no.

"Overshadowed", perhaps?
Well look no one was ever going to be punished for torture unless pictures got out and fortunately that incriminating evidence was destroyed by the current head of the CIA. So can we at least say that the policy of giving those issuing and following illegal order got a continued pass with in the military and the government in general.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:42 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
There is a laundry list of "worst things about Trump winning". Literally 100s of objectively bad things happened.

The worst has to be the 2 illegitimate Supreme Court seats we have to deal with for 40 years.
Somebody needs to look up the words "literally" and "objectively" in the dictionary.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:49 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I've been casually perusing the web for grounds to impeach Trump, and so far all I can find is for violating the emoluments clause.

I think that's probably enough, but it seems like there should be more? Opinions?
I don't know if it has been said yet, but obstruction of justice. The dude went on national television and said he removed an FBI director because he wouldn't let the Russia investigation go (which now has many guilty pleas and indictments in its now many branches). Then there is the other supporting evidence of this, such as trying to help cover up the Jr in the tower meeting.

It won't happen of course because Trump owns the Republicans right now.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:34 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
"Illegitimate" is not the right word. "Suspect", maybe, or "seated due to foreign/Russian influence".
One is illegitimate the other hasn't been confirmed yet.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:44 PM   #192
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
One is illegitimate the other hasn't been confirmed yet.
If he's confirmed, will it be illegitimate?
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:05 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If he's confirmed, will it be illegitimate?

Yes. Not as illegitimate as the other one perhaps, but illegitimate none-the-less.

Let's say the election was won by a landslide. Trump won by a landslide. Then even with Russian interference I would not call the 2nd appointment illegitimate. (The first one would still be because the Republicans illegally (or at least very improperly) did not vote on President Obama's rightful pick for 14 months.) But the election was the exact opposite of a landslide. Hillary lost by 2 counties in Florida and 1 county in Michigan. Therefore since there was provably Russian interference, yes, the second one is illegitimate as well.

What you have are 2 appointments to the Supreme Court of the United States that are not there because of the will of the majority of the people but because of the will of Russia. 50 years ago the Republicans would have considered that an act of war no matter which party it benefited. Now they only would if it had benefited the others.

Pretty simple really.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:36 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
(The first one would still be because the Republicans illegally (or at least very improperly) did not vote on President Obama's rightful pick for 14 months.)
First off, you have your timeline wrong. Garland was nominated on March 16, 2016. His nomination expired on January 3, 2017. That's not 14 months.

Second, there was nothing illegal involved. The Senate followed its rules. There is no requirement that any vote must be held.

Third, "improper" is basically meaningless here.

Fourth, while this might not apply to you specifically, it applies to a lot of people getting their panties in a bunch about the supreme court: there's a wonderful irony in people simultaneously complaining about the lack of a vote for Garland and the removal of the filibuster for other Supreme Court nominees. What exactly do they think a filibuster does?
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:06 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is yours?

I remember John McCain being a perfectly acceptable option until he brought that Tea Party nitwit onto his ticket. I remember Bob Dole being a good option that I was torn about. I remember voting for Bush Sr.

Be carful when picking those cherries.
That (or near it) was the point where I realized the inmates were running the GOP asylum. I remember being so excited to see 2004 John McCain throw his hat in the ring, but then I saw 2008 John McCain and it was a completely different person. The man was literally tortured as a prisoner of war, yet he suddenly flipped around and supported the Bush-era torture for prisoners of war because if he didn't he'd have been primaried by whatever populist-flavored proto-Trump crawled out of the ooze in time to make the ballot.
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:51 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
There are no requirements specified in the Constitution, just "high crimes and misdemeanors". Which include, according to Trump's party, getting a BJ and lying about it.

Don't get your hopes up.
Er, no. Which include, according to the GOP, perjury. That was the issue. Not that it involved a sexual act, but that Clinton lied under oath.
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:53 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Yes. Not as illegitimate as the other one perhaps, but illegitimate none-the-less.

Let's say the election was won by a landslide. Trump won by a landslide. Then even with Russian interference I would not call the 2nd appointment illegitimate. (The first one would still be because the Republicans illegally (or at least very improperly) did not vote on President Obama's rightful pick for 14 months.) But the election was the exact opposite of a landslide. Hillary lost by 2 counties in Florida and 1 county in Michigan. Therefore since there was provably Russian interference, yes, the second one is illegitimate as well.

What you have are 2 appointments to the Supreme Court of the United States that are not there because of the will of the majority of the people but because of the will of Russia. 50 years ago the Republicans would have considered that an act of war no matter which party it benefited. Now they only would if it had benefited the others.

Pretty simple really.
I did not see where Russia interefered with the vote. All 538 votes appear legitimate.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:02 AM   #198
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Clinton lied under oath about whether or not he had "sex with that woman." While that is indeed perjury, it seems like the kind of perjury most guys would commit. Getting a BJ is not a crime and it didn't really impact any investigation into a crime; it was a minor footnote, really. But it certainly would hurt his wife if this came out, so I get it and I don't really hold it against him. The GOP used that minor infraction to impeach him.

If it turns out that there is evidence that Trump did anything illegal, consistency would indicate that any minor offense is enough to impeach. That will be the real test. If Trump committed any crime in order to get elected, say the payment to Stormy turns out to be a violation of the FEC (which I would consider minor, maybe a bit more serious than Clinton's perjury), then the GOP must impeach in order to remain consistent.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:05 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Let's pretend evidence comes out of a recent Trump affair, an illegal payment by Trump to keep it quiet, (maybe a campaign finance violation or something), and also Trump got the woman pregnant and paid for an abortion. Would that be enough to impeach and convict?
Extra-marital sex is not the scandal it used to be in Clinton's day.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:08 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Extra-marital sex is not the scandal it used to be in Clinton's day.
It wasn't the scandal it was in Clinton's day.
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