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The Theory of Relativity will begin to fall apart in 2016/2017 - Part II

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Pixel42 said:
Are you seriously denying that the Moon is tidally locked, which is why we only see one side of it?

You do know that we only found out what the far side of it looked like when we put spacecraft in orbit round it? I'm old enough to remember the first pictures of it.
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The point is what you will see, when living at the Moon.
maanebane.gif
 
Bjarne said:
The point is what you will see, when living at the Moon.
[qimg]http://www.fysikhistorie.dk/merer2/maanebane.gif[/qimg]
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Nope.

That's how you'd see the Earth-Moon system if you were living on the Sun.

If you lived on the Moon you'd see the Earth almost stationary in the sky (it would move around a bit due to nutation), whilst everything else would go round the sky in a period of about 28 days.
 
Bjarne said:
The point is what you will see, when living at the Moon.
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What you see is the earth remaining almost stationary in the sky (if you're on the side of the Moon facing it). You don't see the earth at all from the other side. Exactly as you were told in the post you described as BS.
 
Bjarne said:
Its a fact, that if you was living on the Moon you would see the Earth orbiting the Moon, - Its true but I am not sure you will understand it

Read more

Can the earth orbit a moon?
It already kind of does.
It is a very widesperead misconception that the moon revolves around the earth and the earth just follows its usual path around the sun.
In reality what happens is that both the Earth and the Moon revolve around their common center of mass(Barycenter) and this center of mass follows an elliptical orbit around the sun.
We perceive the moon as orbiting around the earth because the center of mass of the earth and the moon lies below the surface of the earth. So, while the moon follows a nice long elliptical orbit, the earth only wobbles around the center of mass.
Source https://www.quora.com/Can-the-earth-orbit-a-moon
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Oh? SO you are now telling us this? Well, sorry, but we all know that. Actually, I tried to tell you about it several weeks ago, but tat that point you ignored it.

But nice to see you finally caught up and now accept that the moon orbits Earth (or, to nitpick, they both orbit their barycenter). Very good, the world just became a little more sane.

So now, it is time for you to review your claims about how the moon accelerates Earth, how much, and in which direction. Because then you will see that your claims about the Allais effect are wrong.

Let's see if you can take that intellectual step also.

Hans
 
Bjarne said:
The point is what you will see, when living at the Moon.
[qimg]http://www.fysikhistorie.dk/merer2/maanebane.gif[/qimg]
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No. You will see the Earth almost stationary in the sky, while the stars and the sun seems to revolve.

But of course, if you observe carefully and consider things rationally, you will figure out what is really happening.

Hans
 
Bjarne said:
All total irrelevant
Read my leaps, - if you was living on the Moon you would see the Earth is orbiting the Moon.
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Read your leaps? Well, I see you leaping through a lot of hoops to avoid some very obvious and logical conclusions.

Hans
 
Pixel42 said:
What you see is the earth remaining almost stationary in the sky (if you're on the side of the Moon facing it). You don't see the earth at all from the other side. Exactly as you were told in the post you described as BS.
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Bjarne is a rich source of entertainment. It’s like watching a very rude version of Zoolander trying to learn physics.
 
Bjarne said:
BS
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I can't tell if you're really this ignorant or you're just being contrary. If your reply to wollery was the first thing read by a newcomer to this thread, they'd immediately conclude you had nothing to teach them about relativity. And they'd be right.

Come on, Bjarne, try harder.
 
Bjarne said:
Who is dark natter ?
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This intriguing question was asked a while ago. I'm glad to inform you that, after hard investigation, not always without personal danger, I have been able to identify the person in question. I give you, thief, embezzler, pickpocket, and trafficker Dark Natter, caught by a spy-cam in his usual habitat, a dark alley in Eastern Commons, Divinity's Reach, but uncharacteristically in broad daylight.

Hans
 

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MRC_Hans said:
This intriguing question was asked a while ago. I'm glad to inform you that, after hard investigation, not always without personal danger, I have been able to identify the person in question. I give you, thief, embezzler, pickpocket, and trafficker Dark Natter, caught by a spy-cam in his usual habitat, a dark alley in Eastern Commons, Divinity's Reach, but uncharacteristically in broad daylight.

Hans
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Wow, MRC_Hans! You took that yourself and lived? I am impressed. How did you entice him out in the daytime? (Maybe that is something you should not discuss).
 
Pixel42 said:
What you see is the earth remaining almost stationary in the sky (if you're on the side of the Moon facing it). You don't see the earth at all from the other side. Exactly as you were told in the post you described as BS.
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No, because you live at one of the poles of the Moon , so you will see the Earth is orbiting the Moon
 
Bjarne said:
No, because you live at one of the poles of the Moon , so you will see the Earth is orbiting the Moon
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No, you won't.

The Earth appears almost stationary in the sky from any point on the Moon.

This is ridiculously basic Bjarne.
 
What on Earth (or indeed on the moon) are you talking about?

If I lived at one of the moon's poles the earth would be on the horizon. It would wobble a little and that is all.
 
Insanity of calling the fact that the Moon is tidally locked BS

Bjarne said:
BS
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17 July 2018 Bjarne: Insanity of calling the fact that the Moon is tidally locked BS :jaw-dropp!

Look up at the Moon. The Moon always presents the same face to the Earth (with some small variation). It is tidally locked. Someone in the middle of that face looking back at the Earth will see it in roughly the same position.
 
A lie that we would see the Earth orbiting the Moon from the Moon

Bjarne said:
Read my leaps, - if you was living on the Moon you would see the Earth is orbiting the Moon.
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17 July 2018 Bjarne: A lie that we would see the Earth orbiting the Moon from the Moon when we would see the Earth at a single position.

The Moon is tidally locked to the Earth. The Moon always presents the same face to the Earth. Anyone on the Moon sees the Earth in roughly the same position in the sky, i.e. does not see any orbit. Of course anyone on he Moon would have more than 2 brain cells and already know that it is the Moon that is orbiting the Earth.
 
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Ignorance of a cartoon of the Earth + Moon system orbiting the Sun

Bjarne said:
The point is what you will see, when living at the Moon.
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17 July 2018 Bjarne: Ignorance of a cartoon of the Earth + Moon system orbiting the Sun when we are talking about the Moon orbiting the Earth.
 
A lie that someone living at the poles of the Moon will see the Earth orbiting Moon

Bjarne said:
No, because you live at one of the poles of the Moon , so you will see the Earth is orbiting the Moon
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17 July 2018 Bjarne: A lie that someone living at the poles of the Moon will see the Earth is orbiting the Moon

Anyone at the poles of the Moon will either not see the Earth at all or see it in one position at the sky. They will know that the Moon is orbiting the Earth with a face pointed at the Earth.

This is a person who thinks he has a better theory than relativity and yet does not know a basic fact about the Moon :eek:!
 
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wollery said:
No, you won't.

The Earth appears almost stationary in the sky from any point on the Moon.

This is ridiculously basic Bjarne.
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No you are ridiculously

Sometimes the moon is behind the earth, sometime ahead, sometimes the moon is between the Earth and the sun , and sometimes the earth is be between the sun and the earth.
This is what you guys call orbit.

The exact the same happens from the earth
Sometimes the earth is behind the moon, sometime ahead, sometimes earth is between the moon and the sun , and sometimes the moon is be between the sun and the earth.
This is what you guys call orbit.
So this is what you guys to must call orbit too

Try to understand what you see at the image below

If you live at the moon sometimes you will see Solar Eclipse (when the Earth is between the sun and the Earth) and New-Earth, when the 180° opposite.
How can a 180° difference, - be "the same position"
The Earth will look like it is orbiting the moon, - for a person able to see the Earth all the time (from the moon) relative to the starry sky, - But I guess still no one got the point anyway, - so better just forget it all.

maanebane.gif
 
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We all understand your little graphic, Bjarne. There's nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it shows the moon going round the earth only a couple of times a year when it actually does so 13 times. It doesn't alter the fact that the moon keeps one face turned permanently to the earth, and therefore someone on the moon would see the earth staying in the same place in the sky all the time.

Try to understand this.
 
Reality Check said:
17 July 2018 Bjarne: A lie that we would see the Earth orbiting the Moon from the Moon when we would see the Earth at a single position.

The Moon is tidally locked to the Earth. The Moon always presents the same face to the Earth. Anyone on the Moon sees the Earth in roughly the same position in the sky, i.e. does not see any orbit. Of course anyone on he Moon would have more than 2 brain cells and already know that it is the Moon that is orbiting the Earth.
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You don't know what this mean ""relative to the starry sky"" do you ?
 
Pixel42 said:
We all understand your little graphic, Bjarne. There's nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it shows the moon going round the earth only a couple of times a year when it actually does so 13 times. It doesn't alter the fact that the moon keeps one face turned permanently to the earth, and therefore someone on the moon would see the earth staying in the same place in the sky all the time.

Try to understand this.
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You don't know what this mean ""relative to the starry sky"" do you ?
 
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Reality Check said:
17 July 2018 Bjarne: A lie that someone living at the poles of the Moon will see the Earth is orbiting the Moon

Anyone at the poles of the Moon will either not see the Earth at all or see it in one position at the sky. They will know that the Moon is orbiting the Earth with a face pointed at the Earth.

This is a person who thinks he has a better theory than relativity and yet does not know a basic fact about the Moon :eek:!
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You don't know what this mean: ""relative to the starry sky"" do you ?

Let me make it a 2½% little more differcult
For a person living at a (certain place) at the moon, - The earth will looks like; - it is orbiting the moon, relative to the starry sky,.....
Did the chain went off again ?
Yes I believe so, - yes I do.
I am terrible sorry I cannot help you more than this, even you is my best friend.
 
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Pixel42 said:
We all understand your little graphic, Bjarne. There's nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it shows the moon going round the earth only a couple of times a year when it actually does so 13 times. It doesn't alter the fact that the moon keeps one face turned permanently to the earth, and therefore someone on the moon would see the earth staying in the same place in the sky all the time.

Try to understand this.
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Try to understand that the rotation of Earth is causing the illusion that the moon is orbiting the Earth every 24 hours. - However relative to the starry sky, - the moon is "orbiting" once every 29 days.
In the same way, - if you are living at the moon, - forget the moon is not rotating, - relative to the starry sky, you will see the Earth is orbiting the moon once each 29 days
Capito ?
In Denmark intelligent children learns this is the nursery
 
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Bjarne said:
You don't know what this mean ""relative to the starry sky"" do you ?
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You added that phrase after I replied to your post, so I'm only now trying to understand what you mean by it.

Are you finally conceding that, on the moon, the earth will stay in the same position in the sky whilst the stars rotate around it, as people have been telling you for days?

Your "How can a 180° difference, - be "the same position"" comment suggests you're still confused. The earth stays in the same position in the moon's sky but the sun moves (a day on the moon lasts 29 of our days, I.e. a lunar month, think about it and you'll see why). Eclipses occur when the sun, earth and moon line up.
 
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Bjarne said:
Try to understand that the rotation of Earth is causing the illusion that the moon is orbiting the Earth every 24 hours. - However relative to the starry sky, - the moon is "orbiting" once every 29 days.
In the same way, - if you are living at the moon, - forget the moon is not rotating, - relative to the starry sky, you will see the Earth is orbiting the moon once each 29 days
Capito ?
In Denmark intelligent children learns this is the nursery
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If all you're saying is that what the motions of astronomical bodies look like depends on where you're standing but you can always work out what's really going on, that's what everyone else has been trying to explain to you. You're the only one who's been arguing that there is some absolute frame of reference, everybody else already understands that motion is always relative.
 
Pixel42 said:
You added that phrase after I replied to your post, so I'm only now trying to understand what you mean by it.

Are you finally conceding that, on the moon, the earth will stay in the same position in the sky whilst the stars rotate around it, as people have been telling you for days?

Your "How can a 180° difference, - be "the same position"" comment suggests you're still confused. The earth stays in the same position in the moon's sky but the sun moves (a day on the moon lasts 29 of our days, I.e. a lunar month, think about it and you'll see why). Eclipses occur when the sun, earth and moon line up.
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I get the impression with him that he thinks that if you stood on the pole, facing the same direction, the earth would rotate around you

Of course the exact opposite is true, if you walked out your 'front door' at the pole and the earth was above a certain feature- say a particular mountain peak, it would remain pretty much motionless above that peak, while the stars rotated around, with a particular star coming back to the same place in around 29 days
 
Dabop said:
I get the impression with him that he thinks that if you stood on the pole, facing the same direction, the earth would rotate around you

Of course the exact opposite is true, if you walked out your 'front door' at the pole and the earth was above a certain feature- say a particular mountain peak, it would remain pretty much motionless above that peak, while the stars rotated around, with a particular star coming back to the same place in around 29 days
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His argument implied that the Moon’s pole rotates relative to the Moon.
 
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Bjarne has just realized his mistake, but instead of admitting it, he is backpaddling, editing earlier posts, and generally putting out smoke.

Sad show.

Hans
 
Bjarne said:
Try to understand that the rotation of Earth is causing the illusion that the moon is orbiting the Earth every 24 hours. - However relative to the starry sky, - the moon is "orbiting" once every 29 days.
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We all know this, Bjarne. However, you are still wrong. If you must lecture people (who don't need your lecture), at least get your facts right:

Relative to the star background, the moon orbits earth in about 27.322 days (a sidereal month). Relative to the sun (which is the way we tend to observe it on Earth), it orbits in about 29.530 days (a synodic month).

In the same way, - if you are living at the moon, - forget the moon is not rotating, - relative to the starry sky, you will see the Earth is orbiting the moon once each 29 days
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No. The moon is rotating. It rotates once in 27.322 days. Which means that Earth will always be visible in nearly the same direction, while the starry sky rotates in 27.322 days, and the Sun in 29.530.

A good source for all this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon
(To which I already refered you over a month ago.)

In Denmark intelligent children learns this is the nursery
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Do they also learn to check their facts before they make a fool of themselves?

Hans
 
Pixel42 said:
You added that phrase after I replied to your post, so I'm only now trying to understand what you mean by it.
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Good

Are you finally conceding that, on the moon, the earth will stay in the same position in the sky whilst the stars rotate around it, as people have been telling you for days?
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So now you also believe all stars is orbiting the Moon ?

Your "How can a 180° difference, - be "the same position"" comment suggests you're still confused. The earth stays in the same position in the moon's sky but the sun moves (a day on the moon lasts 29 of our days, I.e. a lunar month, think about it and you'll see why). Eclipses occur when the sun, earth and moon line up.
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Irrelevant
Regardless whether you speak about the moon "orbiting" the Earth, or the Earth "orbiting" the Moon, - it makes no sense, unless you in both cases mean relative to the starry sky.

So as your hopefully and finally now should be able to understand is that a person living on the Moon can with the exact same right say that the Earth is orbiting the moon (relative to the starry sky) - as a idiot on Earth would say that the that the Moon is orbiting the Earth.

Almost all cows know nothing of this is true, the moon cannot orbit the Earth while the Earth orbits the moon, - in both cases relative to the starry sky. - Something must be wrong RIGHT ? - and that something is that none of these 2 objects are really orbiting each other, - both are orbiting the Sun, the Earth is not flat, and the Sun is also not orbiting the Earth.
 
MRC_Hans said:
We all know this, Bjarne. However, you are still wrong. If you must lecture people (who don't need your lecture), at least get your facts right:

Relative to the star background, the moon orbits earth in about 27.322 days (a sidereal month). Relative to the sun (which is the way we tend to observe it on Earth), it orbits in about 29.530 days (a synodic month).
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+/-1 a day or 2 is total irrelavant

No. The moon is rotating.
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BS, the moon is NOT rotating.

It rotates once in 27.322 days.
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BS, the moon is NOT rotating.

Which means that Earth will always be visible in nearly the same direction, while the starry sky rotates in 27.322 days, and the Sun in 29.530.
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BS, the moon is NOT rotating. Soon my pie will begin to boil if you keep saying such nonsense.
I was 7½ when I understood the difference between rotation and orbiting, - I guess that a problem for you to understand the difference right ?
 
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Mojo said:
His argument implied that the Moon’s pole rotates relative to the Moon.
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BS
from the pole of the Moon you can always see the Earth, and from here it will indeed look like the Earth is orbiting the Moon, - relative to the starry sky.
 
Pixel42 said:
If all you're saying is that what the motions of astronomical bodies look like depends on where you're standing but you can always work out what's really going on, that's what everyone else has been trying to explain to you. You're the only one who's been arguing that there is some absolute frame of reference, everybody else already understands that motion is always relative.
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I am saying that:
  1. an observer on earth will see the moon orbiting the earth.
  2. an observer on moon will see the earth orbiting the moon
  3. both relative to the starry sky
  4. both regardless whether the observer (on the north pole) is rotating or not.

The logical point is both cannot be right, - none of these are really orbiting each other.
Both are victims for an illusion
So are many here at the forum too.
 
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Bjarne said:
I am saying that:
  1. an observer on earth will see the moon orbiting the earth.
  2. an observer on moon will see the earth orbiting the moon
  3. both relative to the starry sky
  4. both regardless whether the observer (on the north pole) is rotating or not.

The logical point is both cannot be right, - none of these are really orbiting each other.
Both are victims for an illusion
So are many here at the forum too.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, you've just failed celestial mechanics 101.
 
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