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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , border issues , donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd July 2018, 06:57 PM   #1401
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How can anyone justify that?
All MS-13 recruits, obviously.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 04:46 AM   #1402
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How can anyone justify that?
By having minors brought to court they are being extended that most American of rights - the right not be deprived of a thing, except through a court. As this is an individual right, it must be exercised by the individual themselves, and if said individual is lacking in resources to obtain the services of legal counsel after having those rights explained to them, then it is beholden on that individual to represent themselves to the best of their ability and the results are then entirely on the individual.

As this is not a criminal trial, and the individual will not be subject to deprivation of liberty, the defendant is no more entitled to a lawyer provided at state expense than a person defending an action in a civil proceeding.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:19 AM   #1403
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
All MS-13 recruits, obviously.
MS-13 has a very nice pre-k program. It has a long wait list.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:25 AM   #1404
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How can anyone justify that?
By having minors brought to court they are being extended that most American of rights - the right not be deprived of a thing, except through a court. As this is an individual right, it must be exercised by the individual themselves, and if said individual is lacking in resources to obtain the services of legal counsel after having those rights explained to them, then it is beholden on that individual to represent themselves to the best of their ability and the results are then entirely on the individual.

As this is not a criminal trial, and the individual will not be subject to deprivation of liberty, the defendant is no more entitled to a lawyer provided at state expense than a person defending an action in a civil proceeding.

You didn't answer the question.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 06:22 AM   #1405
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You didn't answer the question.
That would be a legal justification used by someone who supported the idea of minors going into court unrepresented.

Personally, I think that the idea on the face of it is abhorrent to ANY notion of justice, especially when carried to the extremes that these immigration courts are taking it to as indicated in the article.

The fact that a judge permits this to happen should be a key indicator that they are unfit to sit on the bench. They have abdicated any right to claim they are administering justice when one of the parties is clearly unable to understand object permanence, let alone legal concepts.
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Old 24th July 2018, 05:19 AM   #1406
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Government: 463 migrant parents may have been deported without their children

Quote:
The Trump administration said in a court filing Monday that 463 parents of migrant children are no longer present in the United States, indicating that the number of mothers and fathers potentially deported without their children during the “zero tolerance” border crackdown could be far larger than previously acknowledged. ...

Immigrant advocates say migrant parents were pressured into signing voluntary deportation forms out of desperation to be released from immigration detention once their sons and daughters were taken from them and sent to government shelters.
Perfect! Now GOP pederasts and psychos have even less to fear! I certainly hope the ineptitude of GOP fascists continues when the gas chambers for fake media get set up in 2020.

GOP = CSA = KKK.
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:20 PM   #1407
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:45 PM   #1408
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ICE Forcing Parents of Kidnapped Children to Pay $8 a Minute to Talk to Them

Effectively hold people's kids hostage and extort money from them if they want to talk! Nothing to see here.
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Old 26th July 2018, 04:45 PM   #1409
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Well, on the positive side, most of the families have apparently been reunited by the date set to reunite all the eligible ones. On the not so good side, about 1/3 of them haven't been reunited, for various reasons.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:30 PM   #1410
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The cruelty, taking kids away from parents then not giving a **** if they ever get back together?

It's more of Sessions plan to deter immigrants. If they threaten to not give all the kids back, it's fine to give some back to make the courts happy.
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Old 27th July 2018, 01:03 AM   #1411
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The cruelty, taking kids away from parents then not giving a **** if they ever get back together?

It's more of Sessions plan to deter immigrants. If they threaten to not give all the kids back, it's fine to give some back to make the courts happy.
If it was just not giving a ****, that would just make them typical Republicans. This was deliberate cruelty -- but then again, apparently that's okay with typical Republicans now, too.


ETA: Never mind. I just remembered Abu Ghraib, so I should have already known that.

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Old 27th July 2018, 07:54 PM   #1412
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
ICE Forcing Parents of Kidnapped Children to Pay $8 a Minute to Talk to Them

Effectively hold people's kids hostage and extort money from them if they want to talk! Nothing to see here.
Sounds like the sort of thing we increasingly do with anyone in state/federal prison, particularly private prisons - BTW, this only helps to estrange prisoners from the outside world, which further harms their ability to integrate back into society on release, and should be banned in general.

Can't say it's a shock, given what we already know, but it's another example of the level of cruelty built in to this garbage administration in general to have a system like that for anyone, much less the families they intentionally tore apart.
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Old 27th July 2018, 09:29 PM   #1413
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Making America great again!

Quote:
According to immigrant-rights advocates, a 6-year-old girl separated from her mother under the Trump administration’s “zero-tolerance” immigration policy was sexually abused while at an Arizona detention facility run by Southwest Key Programs. The child was then made to sign a form acknowledging that she was told to maintain her distance from her alleged abuser, who is an older child being held at the same detention facility.

The girl, who is only identified by the initials D.L., and her mother had been fleeing gang violence in their native Guatemala. According to the family, the pair entered the United States at a point of entry in El Paso, Texas, on May 24, where they presented border patrol authorities with paperwork claiming that they had “credible fear” that returning to Guatemala would result in harm. On May 26, government officials separated D.L. from her mother and sent her to Casa Glendale, a shelter outside of Phoenix operated by Southwest Key Programs. It was there that the alleged abuse occurred.

Before D.L. was taken away, her mother provided authorities with the phone number of D.L.’s father, an undocumented immigrant living in California. On June 11, D.L.’s father received a phone call from Southwest Key explaining that a boy had fondled his daughter and other girls. According to family spokesperson Mark Lane, D.L.’s father was told not to worry because Southwest Key was changing some of its protocols and that such abuse would not happen again. (Lane was connected with D.L.’s family through Families Belong Together, a coalition of civil rights advocacy groups formed in response to the recent border crackdown.) Lane says that D.L.’s father asked to speak with a social worker, but despite promises from the facility, he never heard from one.

A Southwest Key Programs document obtained by The Nation confirms that D.L. was reported to have been sexually abused on June 4, 2018. On June 12, one day after D.L.’s father was contacted, the 6-year-old girl was presented with the form stating that, as part of the facility’s intervention protocol, she had been instructed to “maintain my distance from the other youth involved” and had been provided “psychoeducation,” described in the document as “reporting abuse” and “good touch bad touch.” The form, posted below, shows D.L’s “signature”—a single letter “D,” next to the characterization of her as “tender age”—which supposedly confirms that D.L understands “that it is my responsibility to follow the safety plan” reviewed with her.
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Old 27th July 2018, 09:34 PM   #1414
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Honestly, I cannot believe this is my country. Even GW invading Iraq wasn't this depraved.
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Old 27th July 2018, 11:36 PM   #1415
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Honestly, I cannot believe this is my country. Even GW invading Iraq wasn't this depraved.
I went to Europe almost immediately after the Iraq invasion back in 2003. I was embarrassed to be an American then. I was in Europe a month ago and was even more embarrassed to be an American than I was before. Not a single person had a good word to say about Trump.

I know some uber-nationalistic "patriots" would have a covfefe-fit by my saying that, but it's the truth. I don't consider what Trump and his covfefe kissers are doing now as being patriotic. I consider it just the opposite.
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Old 28th July 2018, 12:12 AM   #1416
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It gets worse:

Quote:
But the nightmare wasn’t over. On June 22, Southwest Key again contacted D.L.’s father and informed him that the same boy initially cited for abuse had hit and fondled D.L. again. According to Lane, D.L.’s father asked how the facility could allow this to happen, and the woman on the phone responded that she was only calling him to advise him that it had happened, that she didn’t have permission to say anything else, and he would have to speak with the director.
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Old 28th July 2018, 12:40 AM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
It gets worse:
Fortunately there are activists who will keep the spotlight on this case. It's sad that it's needed, but dad and daughter will have a lot of support.
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Old 28th July 2018, 03:26 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I went to Europe almost immediately after the Iraq invasion back in 2003. I was embarrassed to be an American then. I was in Europe a month ago and was even more embarrassed to be an American than I was before. Not a single person had a good word to say about Trump.

I know some uber-nationalistic "patriots" would have a covfefe-fit by my saying that, but it's the truth. I don't consider what Trump and his covfefe kissers are doing now as being patriotic. I consider it just the opposite.
If you lived overseas as an ex-pat, imagine how much worse it might be. Say, having to let your spouse enter shops and negotiate prices and conditions prior to your going in, and before your foreign name or ID ever come into play, then witnessing the undisguised horror on the clerk's face when they find they've missed an opportunity to employ financial and commercial bias. Or being lectured by every potential client and business colleague on "cultural imperialism" and borrowings from the English language, none of which are germane to the matters at hand. Perhaps the worst is having to take local nationals with you to health services, else you find doctors merely take simple note and do not order any tests or give prescriptions, and when they do, they are for inappropriate medications or the most expensive alternatives. This is all before today's reactions to children in cages.

Americans in the 21st century are, for many, the Nazis of the last: aggressive war and torture as policy.
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Old 28th July 2018, 01:28 PM   #1419
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
If you lived overseas as an ex-pat, imagine how much worse it might be. Say, having to let your spouse enter shops and negotiate prices and conditions prior to your going in, and before your foreign name or ID ever come into play, then witnessing the undisguised horror on the clerk's face when they find they've missed an opportunity to employ financial and commercial bias. Or being lectured by every potential client and business colleague on "cultural imperialism" and borrowings from the English language, none of which are germane to the matters at hand. Perhaps the worst is having to take local nationals with you to health services, else you find doctors merely take simple note and do not order any tests or give prescriptions, and when they do, they are for inappropriate medications or the most expensive alternatives. This is all before today's reactions to children in cages.

Americans in the 21st century are, for many, the Nazis of the last: aggressive war and torture as policy.
The Trump admin does not want Americans travelling outside of the US. Ypou might be reminded of how sane the US used to be.
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Old 28th July 2018, 02:23 PM   #1420
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Fortunately there are activists who will keep the spotlight on this case. It's sad that it's needed, but dad and daughter will have a lot of support.
Kind of makes one wonder what a child has to go through to finally be reunited with their parents...

"Through the work of Families Belong Together and a legal team assembled for this case, D.L., her mother, and her father have now all been reunited."

"According to D.L.’s mother, when the family came together again, the young girl was confused. “I hugged her, I was crying. She didn’t recognize me,” the mother said. “She told me that she thought I was never going to be with her again and that she was going to have to live with another lady. She behaved like she was still in detention. She wouldn’t touch me, hug me, or kiss me.”
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Old 29th July 2018, 04:23 AM   #1421
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Judge orders independent monitor for immigrant facilities after children detail shocking conditions
Quote:
A federal judge has ordered an independent monitor to evaluate conditions in border facilities that house immigrant children, amid allegations of unsafe conditions and rampant abuse. U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee in Los Angeles said there was a serious “disconnect” between the Trump administration’s own assessment of facilities in Texas’ Rio Grande Valley and hundreds of pages of class action testimony detailing major problems, including abusive treatment, lack of adequate food and water, and unsanitary conditions.

While in ICE custody, thousands of migrants reported sexual abuse

Seems to me, especially given the treakly weak excuse given the police in the so-called "danger imperative" (aka, "Shoot scary blacks on sight!"), as well as things such as Florida's "stand-your-ground" reasoning, that in consideration of:
Quote:
Self-Defense and Defense of Others.
Self-defense and defense of others are two criminal defenses that can be used when a criminal defendant commits a criminal act but believes that he or she was justified in doing so. Although our legal system generally discourages the use of force or violence against others, courts have recognized that all individuals have the right to protect themselves from harm and may use reasonable force in order to do so. Likewise, the defense of others defense also recognizes the right to use reasonable force in defense of others who are threatened.
... one might justifiably waltz into a detention center and take down the personnel with whatever level of force might be required.

Pervert Nazi Republicans: Suck it down!
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Old 30th July 2018, 10:50 PM   #1422
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One 'pro-life' Trump official single-handedly prolonged the detention of hundreds of migrant kids

Quote:
Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) director E. Scott Lloyd—the religious zealot who unsuccessfully tried to block an immigrant teen’s access to an abortion—single-handedly prolonged the detention of hundreds of migrant children, by telling “subordinates last year that he’d have to personally sign off before any kids could be released from ORR’s secure facilities,” Huffington Post’s Roque Planas reports.

“As a result,” he continues, “hundreds of kids spent extra time in the jail-like facilities, which have been associated with far more allegations of abuse and mistreatment than the shelters and homestays that hold most of the children in ORR custody.” Lloyd reportedly blamed migrant kids themselves for this decision,
The best people!
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Old 31st July 2018, 12:08 PM   #1423
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Quote:
U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee in Los Angeles ordered the Trump administration to obtain consent or a court order before administering any psychotropic medications to migrant children, except in cases of dire emergencies. She also ordered that the government move all children out of a Texas facility, Shiloh Residential Treatment Center in Manvel, except for children deemed by a licensed professional to pose a “risk of harm” to themselves or others.

...

There is evidence that several children were not allowed to have any private telephone calls at Shiloh, Gee wrote. One minor, identified as Julio Z., said Shiloh staff refused to let him and other children leave their living areas to get drinking water. When Julio tried to step out to get water on one occasion, a staff member allegedly threw him to the ground, injuring his elbow.

The judge ordered Shiloh to stop using any unessential security measures, such as denying children drinking water, and demanded officials allow children at Shiloh to speak privately over the phone.

...

Julio Z., another minor held at Shiloh, said he “never knew exactly what the pills were.” Court documents list Clonazepam, Divalproex, Duloxetine, Guanfacine, Latuda, Geodon, and Olanzapine among his medications.

“The staff threatened to throw me on the ground and force me to take the medication,” Julio Z testified. “I also saw staff throw another youth to the ground, pry his mouth open and force him to take the medicine. . . . They told me that if I did not take the medicine I could not leave, that the only way I could get out of Shiloh was if I took the pills.”

Lucas R., a 12-year-old boy from Guatemala who was detained in February, was transferred to Shiloh after he refused to take antidepressant Zoloft, which was causing him stomach pain, according to a separate court filing. Shiloh medical staff diagnosed Lucas with major depressive disorder and told him that officials would not release him until Shiloh medical personnel declared him psychologically sound.

His depression was in large part triggered by “being kept from family,” who had entered the country before him, according to court documents.
Linky.
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Old 31st July 2018, 12:19 PM   #1424
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It is obscene.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 31st July 2018, 04:51 PM   #1425
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Some doctor needs to lose his license over that.
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Old 31st July 2018, 05:58 PM   #1426
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It sounds like so many of these ICE people taking custody of kids have no screening or childcare skills whatsoever.
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Old 1st August 2018, 01:15 AM   #1427
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Hey, don't look now... Another lawsuit against ICE!

Quote:

The fathers claim that [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] ICE agents presented them with forms that were written mostly in English, with three options at the bottom in Spanish: being deported with their children, being deported without their children, and waiting to speak to a lawyer. All four claim that the first option—parent and child alike getting deported—had already been selected for them.

But the parents refused to be deported with their kids, and wanted to check the second option, which would consent to their own deportation while allowing their kids to remain here to pursue possible claims. But they were “yelled at by the ICE agents,” and “told they simply were not allowed to select another option.” When the parents refused, they were separated from their children yet again, despite Judge Dana Sabraw ordering the reunification of separated families.
How many here think that they'd at least be trying to check the third box if it weren't for the ICE agents?
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Old 1st August 2018, 05:16 AM   #1428
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Not too sure about the legitimacy of this report, seeing as the source is unconfirmed tweet about an unnamed child, but anyway:

https://www.ibtimes.com/child-dead-i...lawyer-2704521

Immigration attorney claims an unnamed child detainee has died in ICE custody, possibly due to the very poor and crowded conditions.
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Old 1st August 2018, 08:46 AM   #1429
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If I were a parent separated from my young kids by the USA and found myself deported without them, and my children had died or disappeared in custody, I'd gut as many Americans as I could find, maximizing their pain and terror.
- common thought bubble making rounds in Central America

Perhaps it would be better for everyone to simply cart all American officials found anywhere overseas to The Hague; then negotiate to exchange them for ICE employees, Trump, and high Trump officials; and finally start the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. Same deal in mind: legal niceties, then the rope.

Rough? No, a puff piece. Put the shoe on the other foot, tune in mentally to what would be said by Fox News and Breitbart, and imagine. The US would wipe entire countries off the map (Exhibit A: Iraq II, on the basis of unfounded suspicions alone).
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Old 1st August 2018, 11:18 AM   #1430
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not too sure about the legitimacy of this report, seeing as the source is unconfirmed tweet about an unnamed child, but anyway:

https://www.ibtimes.com/child-dead-i...lawyer-2704521

Immigration attorney claims an unnamed child detainee has died in ICE custody, possibly due to the very poor and crowded conditions.
By the look of it... the actual claim was that the child died AFTER being in ICE custody and largely as a result of negligent care and sickness that started while in custody.

Quote:
“The child died following her stay at an ICE Detention Center, as a result of possible negligent care and a respiratory illness she contracted from one of the other children. The events took place in Dilley Family Detention Center in south Texas,” she wrote.

The denial by ICE is that no child died while they were actually in ICE custody.

The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 2nd August 2018, 01:56 AM   #1431
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Uh, dude. You do realize that is the goal of the "parents."
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:00 AM   #1432
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
If I were a parent separated from my young kids by the USA and found myself deported without them, and my children had died or disappeared in custody, I'd gut as many Americans as I could find, maximizing their pain and terror.
- common thought bubble making rounds in Central America

Perhaps it would be better for everyone to simply cart all American officials found anywhere overseas to The Hague; then negotiate to exchange them for ICE employees, Trump, and high Trump officials; and finally start the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. Same deal in mind: legal niceties, then the rope.

Rough? No, a puff piece. Put the shoe on the other foot, tune in mentally to what would be said by Fox News and Breitbart, and imagine. The US would wipe entire countries off the map (Exhibit A: Iraq II, on the basis of unfounded suspicions alone).
Advocating for terrorism is now acceptable on this forum? Rest assured, that is not what Hispanics think. I knew the "skeptic community" was in the gutter, but I never imagined there'd be open calls for terrorism.
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:02 AM   #1433
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post

... one might justifiably waltz into a detention center and take down the personnel with whatever level of force might be required.

Pervert Nazi Republicans: Suck it down!
This is being reported to the proper authorities, along with every other call to terrorism.

Last edited by Baylor; 2nd August 2018 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:12 AM   #1434
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Honestly, I cannot believe this is my country. Even GW invading Iraq wasn't this depraved.
And yet, you only got mad when you were told to get mad. Do you "skeptics" not see that you are the exhibiting the exact same religious behavior you purport to be against?
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:19 AM   #1435
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's heartbreaking and disgusting, including drugging of little kids who act up.
No it isn't. You're just feigning concern and outrage.
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:26 AM   #1436
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post

Can't say it's a shock, given what we already know, but it's another example of the level of cruelty built in to this garbage administration in general to have a system like that for anyone, much less the families they intentionally tore apart.
Being the skeptic you are **coughs**, are you skeptical when illegal migrants claim to be parents of undocumented child?
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:36 AM   #1437
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A lot of posts in a row Baylor. Are you going to cite some evidence for these pronouncements of yours?
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:38 AM   #1438
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I went to Mexico with a pregnant girl once. She was denied a free abortion in custody. Are you outraged?

Last edited by Baylor; 2nd August 2018 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2018, 02:44 AM   #1439
Baylor
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A lot of posts in a row Baylor. Are you going to cite some evidence for these pronouncements of yours?
We have, in this very page, someone advocating for terrorism. Not one person besides me finds this alarming. And then, here you are asking for evidence of "these pronouncements." You just want to show you're not against the hive mind. I have crippling insomnia so I'll indulge, which one of "these pronouncements" to which you are referring?
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Old 2nd August 2018, 03:04 AM   #1440
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We have, in this very page, someone advocating for terrorism. ...
No.
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