Mis-representations in historical movies

More recently, while I loved the movie, the actual technical history behind "The Imitation Game" is so far from what was presented that all I could do was sit back and enjoy the acting instead. Clearly the writers were trying to reduce a complex situation to fit into a bog-simple story plot line.

PLEASE don't bother trying to point out all the errors. There are dozens I saw and no doubt plenty more to be found.
 
Trebuchet said:
Someone on NCIS: "What did Ducky look like when he was younger?"
Gibbs: "Ilya Kuryakin."

Going a bit further afield, or asea, the scene of Indiana Jones climbing onto a submerging submarine and climbing off some distance later has always bothered me. The willing suspension of disbelief only goes so far. That broke it.
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I understand that in the original script the U-boat used a snorkel, to which Indy lashed himself.
 
ahhell said:
On the other hand, they repeatedly used shield walls, to the point that my wife asked if that was the only tactic they used back then.
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Actually for pitched battles - yes. Cavalry was more for getting to the battle for both Vikings and Saxons, or for raiding. Shieldwalls were the primary way that large scale combats were fought.
 
smartcooky said:
Yes, I'm aware of that. It still annoys me that they do this when it isn't necessary.

A handle/callsign on the front of the helmet will tell you who the character is, and having the camera on them while they are talking will tell you who's talking.
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It's much easier for the sound guy if you can see their lips moving.
 
Elagabalus said:
I think it depends, I can forgive Steve McQueen for using a Triumph TR6 Trophy Bird in 'The Great Escape" because it still looks like a bike from the period and it sounds like the business. However, the use of much more modern (offroad!) bikes painted Wermacht green in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rankled.
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Ah, these people have nothing on 'Street Hawk'
 
Some may recall “Then Came Bronson” where Michael Parks’ Harley Sportster would magically lose one cylinder and sprout knobby tires for off-road scenes.....
 
Bikewer said:
Some may recall “Then Came Bronson” where Michael Parks’ Harley Sportster would magically lose one cylinder and sprout knobby tires for off-road scenes.....
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Or Joe Namath, in "C.C. & Company", motioning kick starting his bike while you can hear the "nee, nee, nee" of the electric starter.
 
Border Reiver said:
Actually for pitched battles - yes. Cavalry was more for getting to the battle for both Vikings and Saxons, or for raiding. Shieldwalls were the primary way that large scale combats were fought.
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I recall my freshman World History professor saying that fighting on horseback was impractical before stirrups became widespread.
 
The film "Argo" heavily downplayed the Canadian role in planning and executing the rescue mission. Kind of strange given the tremendous public good will the successful mission generated between the two allies when it actually happened. Seems like a needless snub to our Northern friends.
 
Trebuchet said:
I always considered Top Gun to be sort of a semi-sequel to An Officer and a Gentleman anyhow. The latter of which was filmed in my town.
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Top Gun is a prequel to a Few Good Men which laugh all you want is literally Harmon Rabb's character arc in JAG.
 
Trebuchet said:
I recall my freshman World History professor saying that fighting on horseback was impractical before stirrups became widespread.
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Exactly, and if I remember stirrups didn't become common in England until about 50 years after Alfie the Great (Who, oddly enough, is portrayed fairly accurately)
 
Trebuchet said:
I recall my freshman World History professor saying that fighting on horseback was impractical before stirrups became widespread.
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Well he'd be wrong then. It's the saddle, not the stirrups, that makes all the difference. The guys in Marcus Junkelmann's reconstructed Roman cavalry troop used to do a cool demo. On an Arab stallion, dressed in full 1st century Auxiliary get-up, couched lance, spearing a 200 kg sack of sand off a wooden horse at full gallop. No problem. There's pics and description in "Die Reiter Roms"

FWIW Junkelmann did experiments on the efficacy of stirrups vs stirrup-less but with a decent saddle. The only real value to them he discovered was that it prevents fatigue in your legs (although that is not an inconsiderable advantage).
 
What Belz said (good to see you back btw)

In the pre-Colonial days there was no raw, refined sugar in mainland Europe with honey and various fruit juices or vegetable sugars (beet sugar was often used iirc but that might have come later) being the main sweeteners so tooth hygiene was pretty okay all things considered.
 
Trebuchet said:
I recall my freshman World History professor saying that fighting on horseback was impractical before stirrups became widespread.
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Border Reiver said:
Exactly, and if I remember stirrups didn't become common in England until about 50 years after Alfie the Great (Who, oddly enough, is portrayed fairly accurately)
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TX50 said:
Well he'd be wrong then. It's the saddle, not the stirrups, that makes all the difference. The guys in Marcus Junkelmann's reconstructed Roman cavalry troop used to do a cool demo. On an Arab stallion, dressed in full 1st century Auxiliary get-up, couched lance, spearing a 200 kg sack of sand off a wooden horse at full gallop. No problem. There's pics and description in "Die Reiter Roms"

FWIW Junkelmann did experiments on the efficacy of stirrups vs stirrup-less but with a decent saddle. The only real value to them he discovered was that it prevents fatigue in your legs (although that is not an inconsiderable advantage).
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Great Stirrup Controversy.
 
Belz... said:
Which isn't too bad unless we're talking about the early modern age. In the middle ages people had better hygiene than in the 17th century, for instance.
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Before refined sugar teeth tended to be good.
 
TX50 said:
Well he'd be wrong then. It's the saddle, not the stirrups, that makes all the difference. The guys in Marcus Junkelmann's reconstructed Roman cavalry troop used to do a cool demo. On an Arab stallion, dressed in full 1st century Auxiliary get-up, couched lance, spearing a 200 kg sack of sand off a wooden horse at full gallop. No problem. There's pics and description in "Die Reiter Roms"

FWIW Junkelmann did experiments on the efficacy of stirrups vs stirrup-less but with a decent saddle. The only real value to them he discovered was that it prevents fatigue in your legs (although that is not an inconsiderable advantage).
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Which is all very well but the Romans tended to use cavalry as skirmishers and scouts. What were later termed as 'light cavalry'
Their main weapon was the Sparta sword, not a 'couched lance'
 
In many reenactments and other movies workmen are often shown using some type of hammer such a mallet. Fine. Except they are using it like an amateur. A professional will hold the hammer away from the business end. An amateur will hold it close to the business end.
 
Trebuchet said:
Great Stirrup Controversy.
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dudalb said:
I KNEW someone world bring this up.
Perennial favorite among Military Historians. I have no doubt many Master Degree and PHD thesis have been written on it.
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I'm pretty sure that the same discussion has come up before and I even posted the same link. Had a pretty strong sense of deja vu, anyhow.

How about Native Americans in Westerns with saddles under their blankets and feet in stirrups? Oh, and the beautiful Indian woman in a closeup with blue eyes?
 
Trebuchet said:
How about Native Americans in Westerns with saddles under their blankets and feet in stirrups? Oh, and the beautiful Indian woman in a closeup with blue eyes?
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I just assume they're descendants of Madoc, ap Owain of Gwynedd.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Which is all very well but the Romans tended to use cavalry as skirmishers and scouts. What were later termed as 'light cavalry'
Their main weapon was the Sparta sword, not a 'couched lance'
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Spatha.

Sorry, my inner nerd got his back up about that. Roman cavalry used spears, but not in a couched position. That was largely pioneered - as were a lot of things about mounted warfare - by the Normans.
 
How about Native Americans in Westerns with saddles under their blankets and feet in stirrups? Oh, and the beautiful Indian woman in a closeup with blue eyes?
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Maybe the saddle and the rest were on the horse when they acquired it? Or the production's insurance company didn't want to have to potentially pay out a lot of claims for injuries (the BBC/HBO series Rome put stirrups on their saddles for that reason).


There were blue-eyed "Indians": adoption was a common practice across North America, and there are many documented cases of young children being abducted, raised by a tribe, and on adulthood treated as full-fledged members of that tribe. Cynthia Ann Parker, who had lived with the Commanche long enough to forget most of her English, was supposedly identified because of her blue eyes.
 
Trebuchet said:
I'm pretty sure that the same discussion has come up before and I even posted the same link. Had a pretty strong sense of deja vu, anyhow.

How about Native Americans in Westerns with saddles under their blankets and feet in stirrups? Oh, and the beautiful Indian woman in a closeup with blue eyes?
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And those odd versions of Native American languages

 
JoeMorgue said:
What Belz said (good to see you back btw)

In the pre-Colonial days there was no raw, refined sugar in mainland Europe with honey and various fruit juices or vegetable sugars (beet sugar was often used iirc but that might have come later) being the main sweeteners so tooth hygiene was pretty okay all things considered.
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It came later.
A royal decree led to the first factory devoted to sugar extraction from beetroots being opened in Kunern, Silesia (now Konary, Poland) in 1801. The Silesian sugar beet was soon introduced to France, where Napoleon opened schools specifically for studying the plant. He also ordered that 28,000 hectares (69,000 acres) be devoted to growing the new sugar beet.[9] This was in response to British blockades of cane sugar during the Napoleonic Wars ... The sugar beet was introduced to North America after 1830, with the first commercial production starting in 1879 at a farm in Alvarado, California.​
 
Horatius said:
I suppose it depends on how egregious the flaw is. Sometimes it's just a neat Easter egg. I often don't spot these things when viewing, but occasionally I do. The one I remember was in the Vietnam-era movie Flight of the Intruder, when a close-up of a book rack in a library showed a science fiction novel that I knew wasn't published until the mid-80s. If you check that page, you'll see more such flaws, some of which are kind of petty.
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Or the episode of MASH in which Radar was sleeping with a comic book from 1969 laying on his chest.
 
arthwollipot said:
Spatha.

Sorry, my inner nerd got his back up about that. Roman cavalry used spears, but not in a couched position. That was largely pioneered - as were a lot of things about mounted warfare - by the Normans.
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Oops!

That's weird. I could have sworn I typed Spatha! I have a reproduction, 3rd century style.
 
Speaking of the Roman Legions, notice, with a few exceptions, how no matter if it takes place in 250 BC (the Punic Wars) or during the Fall ,the Legions are of the Late Republic/Early Empire period (roughly 80 BC to 100 AD).
Reason is , of course, money. The big New Testament /Dawn of Christianity films are set during that period, and it's cheaper to buy the stuff used rather then have it made new.
And so we have Early Empire Legionaries fighting Hannibal's troops...which is like making a movie about the American Revolution with the Brits dressed in World War 2 Uniforms and equipment. The Roman Legions had drastic changes in equipment, armor and dress over the Republic and Empire. The Later Empire legions resembled medieval troops much more then 1st century legionaries.
 
Armitage72 said:
Or the episode of MASH in which Radar was sleeping with a comic book from 1969 laying on his chest.
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That one doesn't count. It would be a small matter for the Godfather of the E-4 Mafia to time travel.
 
I didn’t have too big a problem with standard Hollywoodisms like compressing characters in Apollo 13, e.g. having Ken Mattingly as CapCom during reentry (actually Joe Kerwin), but having the Grumman rep being a weasel really bugged me. In the documentary Lost Moon, it’s described how LM chief engineer Tom Kelly arrives at the Grumman facility in the middle of the night, only to find just about everybody from every shift that had ever turned a wrench or made a calculation jamming the place, all determined to help in any way they could.
 
Yes, that's the sort of pernicious misrepresentation that feeds a trope that seeps into real life
 
dudalb said:
And so we have Early Empire Legionaries fighting Hannibal's troops...which is like making a movie about the American Revolution with the Brits dressed in World War 2 Uniforms and equipment.
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It would have been a very different war with George Washington ordering the Continental Army to advance into the beaten zone of several Vickers MGs, supported by Col. Tarleton's loyalist regiment of Cromwell tanks....
 
sts60 said:
I didn’t have too big a problem with standard Hollywoodisms like compressing characters in Apollo 13, e.g. having Ken Mattingly as CapCom during reentry (actually Joe Kerwin), but having the Grumman rep being a weasel really bugged me. In the documentary Lost Moon, it’s described how LM chief engineer Tom Kelly arrives at the Grumman facility in the middle of the night, only to find just about everybody from every shift that had ever turned a wrench or made a calculation jamming the place, all determined to help in any way they could.
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The one that annoys me (I found this out a long time after seeing the film) was the portrayal of Gene Kranz as the only flight director involved. In fact, the most critical part of the flight was handled by Glynn Lunney. In fact, Ken Mattingly said it was him that actually pulled everybody together after the initial confusion.
 
jeremyp said:
The one that annoys me (I found this out a long time after seeing the film) was the portrayal of Gene Kranz as the only flight director involved. In fact, the most critical part of the flight was handled by Glynn Lunney. In fact, Ken Mattingly said it was him that actually pulled everybody together after the initial confusion.
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That's the kind of thing that bugs me the most. The "Real" story is far more interesting. And historical figures are always depicted as "super extraordinary" having no contemporaries who were also working on the same problem at the same time i.e. the Wright Brothers, some one up thread mentioned the Enigma (the Polish had been decrypting Enigma messages way back in 1932!) etc.
 
Border Reiver said:
It would have been a very different war with George Washington ordering the Continental Army to advance into the beaten zone of several Vickers MGs, supported by Col. Tarleton's loyalist regiment of Cromwell tanks....
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But to be fair the only differences between the republic and later empire was variations in armour and sword deign and some difference in tactics. There wasn't a huge leap in technology
 
Captain_Swoop said:
The tracks are not additions by the Israelis, or the French that built the tanks for them.
They are standard HVSS suspension units and tracks.
They were developed by Chrysler and were fitted to Shermans produced from late 1943 onwards.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/suspension/hvss_suspension.html
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OK, OK! They appeared to have welded on some "fenderettes" (miniskirts?) which give the appearance of the tracks being wider - which is kind of the same thing. But why are we even quibbling over this when out on the internet Shermans are being subjugated?!!

http://www.theshermantank.com/lend-lease/59-subjugated-shermans-shermans-in-nazi-hands/

The comments are pretty funny.
 
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