Amway- Quit or work until you are dead
- Thread starter nothanks
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I have been debating on Amway related topics for more than 10 years. During that time, I have asked numerous Amway defenders to name and verify even a single person who joined Amway, built an empire, and walked away to enjoy luxuries beyond imagination for life because of residual ongoing Amway income. Not a single Amway defender could name a single one.
I was told that the diamonds and other big shots keep "working" because they enjoy it and they truly want to help the downline. I personally find it implausible that not a single person has walked away to enjoy privacy and wealth beyond imagination from an Amway business.
When you consider that Amway sales have been in a sharp decline over the last 5 years (11.8 billion in 2013, 10.5 billion in 2014, 9.5 billion in 2015, 8.8 billion in 2016, and 8.6 billion in 2017), and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit within a year, and most Amway IBOs do nothing, it would be impossible to walk away from a business like this and see it thriving some years later.
I believe there is no sustainable Amway residual income for extended periods of time. The Amway business, IMO, is like a sand castle. You can walk away and it might stand for a while. But the waves and wind will wear it down to nothing pretty quickly. Amway's attrition rate is like the waves and the wind.
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
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In the late 1980s I frequently attended Amway rallies to help out a friend (bringing potential recruits to these rallies made my friend look good to his upstream). The speakers were probably diamonds or equivalent, and they had a story about how their lives are great now, with all this leisure time.
One speaker had an anecdote that he used every time, I guess assuming the crowd didn't have repeat visitors? Anyway, it was a story about how this morning on the way to the rally, he had time to just pull over and sit on the side of the road and watch an American bald eagle fly around awhile.
When my friend said he found the story inspiring, I pointed out that this guy is trying to sell five minutes of downtime between his redeye flight and rally as some sort of life of leisure. This guy seems to be treading water, he needs to be recruiting nonstop or whatever scraping by income he has will all dry up, and this dude was in his 60s. This is not a great look ahead into an Amway retirement plan.
I don't know what exactly changed my friend's mind about Amway, but I think this was a factor. The other was that the daughter of his upstream got engaged and wasn't available anymore.
Dread Pirate Roberts
Critical Thinker
Perhaps only the ones that make all the money off the tools business, not Amway product. But they still have to make sure the system is fed with new recruits.
One telltale sign of weakness is that the diamonds may portray a jet set lifestyle of luxury but if you could see how they live, it would probably be a middle class lifestyle with a night job instead of a 9-5.
You will see pictures of Amway paid vacations but rarely will you will a vast array of exotic and expensive vacations because (IMO) the diamonds are busy maintaining their business. Without the diamond (the Star), who will motivate the troops and even the platinums?
My former diamond claimed to be "rich", but he owned cars that were "pre owned" by his upline and I never saw any non Amway related vacation pictures. All I saw was Peter island pictures which all qualified diamonds get to attend. He owned a decent home in Hawaii and spoke of building a mansion near "Hawaii loa ridge" on Oahu but he started the project and did not appear to finish it and he ended up in Washington state in a middle class neighborhood.
Where's the uber wealth? I believe it's mostly a charade. Some diamonds probably are wealthy but it's through a scam of selling tools and functions and lesser diamonds are scraping to make enough to "appear" wealthy.
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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The wealth is an illusion. Those who have made fortunes in Amway are the tool merchants. Guys like Dexter who manufacturers and sells a ton of seminar recordings for outrageous prices. That family is still in the same business selling "tools" to people and making a lot of money doing it.
There may be the occasional person around who has a small residual income because they sponsored some people who are out there hustling, but it's few and far between.
In fact there are many examples of people who were bigtime pins back in the day and who no longer have a business. It's definitely not something that sustains itself without a ton of ongoing work due to people leaving.
As a fairly successful guy myself I usually laugh pretty hard when I get approached by these morons. Let me get this straight, you want me to join your pyramid scheme? Nah dawg, that's only for idiots.
There may be the occasional person around who has a small residual income because they sponsored some people who are out there hustling, but it's few and far between.
In fact there are many examples of people who were bigtime pins back in the day and who no longer have a business. It's definitely not something that sustains itself without a ton of ongoing work due to people leaving.
As a fairly successful guy myself I usually laugh pretty hard when I get approached by these morons. Let me get this straight, you want me to join your pyramid scheme? Nah dawg, that's only for idiots.
I've challenged some pro Amway people on various forums to name even a small handful people people who built the Amway business, and walked away to enjoy residual income for life. Not a single one of them could name even one person (that's verifiable) who did this.
Conversely, there are a bunch of diamonds who have quit or resigned from Amway. Who in the world would quit or resign if lifelong residual income were a reality? Instead we see mega diamond crown ambassador types on the job until they pass away.
If there really was a realistic chance to earn that lifelong residual income from Amway, there would be no need to lie and trick people into seeing the business plan. People would be drawn to it.
Belz...
Fiend God
MLMs are scams, full stop. They're just narowly avoiding the pyramid scheme label, and quite honestly I don't see a real difference.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
I think the difference is you are buying a product to sell, not just giving the money to the person above you in the pyramid. I think that's the difference that allows the MLM schemes to operate.
But I would not touch an MLM with a ten foot pole. There is a reason why really good salespeople won't go near a MLM.
An old high school acquaintance of mine seems to have recently gotten in to some sort of Cosmetics related MLM. She's pushing out all sort of videos on social media pushing the products, showing how good they make her look (she's pretty, that helps), and so on. She really goes on about how motivating and inspirational this all is.
I don't expect it to last.
The people who promote Amway and MLM always seem to talk about this "residual income" that keeps rolling in even if you leave the business, or how you can will this income to future generations as if the money will keep flowing once you establish this seemingly high level (typically the "diamond" level).
But what's unseen to most is that in order to earn money in Amway, there are monthly qualification parameters (volume) that must be met in order to be paid at certain levels.
When you factor in that most people do little or nothing, and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit each year, and that about 95% of all IBOs quit in about 5 years, how can anyone build an empire that will continue to generate bonuses for long without constant maintenance and cheer leading from what is usually a charismatic leader?
But what's unseen to most is that in order to earn money in Amway, there are monthly qualification parameters (volume) that must be met in order to be paid at certain levels.
When you factor in that most people do little or nothing, and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit each year, and that about 95% of all IBOs quit in about 5 years, how can anyone build an empire that will continue to generate bonuses for long without constant maintenance and cheer leading from what is usually a charismatic leader?
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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The difference is this:
In a pyramid scheme the people at the bottom give money to the people at the top. Sometimes this is a direct payment, sometimes it's hidden.
In a Multi-level-marketing scheme, the new recruits are told they are to be a sales force to sell product, but really they're recruited to be the market for inspirational/motivational materials, which are produced by their up-line who pockets the profit from the manufacture and sale of those materials. The products they sell are almost immaterial.
Belz...
Fiend God
Yes, that's how I understand it as well, but it's not much of a distinction. It's still a scam, just one that's better hidden, like creationism masquerading under the name of 'intelligent design'.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Which is why professional salespeople who are good at their job have total contempt for MLMs. For a real salesmen, it's all about being an expert on the product you are selling.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
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There’s a new Podcast called “The Dream” which is going to go in depth on MLM. The first episode lays out the “Airplane Game” and makes the case that MLM is exactly the same thing, just well disguised by a cover story.
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novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Oh. I remember when "the airplane game" came to Australia.
Some people I knew had attended the event (where the top rung were all paid off) and had bought in.
They were rushing around, trying to find suckers to buy in, but it was already too late. (The available pool of marks must be used up very quickly in that scam).
As far as I know, they all lost ever cent.
Some people I knew had attended the event (where the top rung were all paid off) and had bought in.
They were rushing around, trying to find suckers to buy in, but it was already too late. (The available pool of marks must be used up very quickly in that scam).
As far as I know, they all lost ever cent.
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
Early to mid 1990s?
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
It was in Sydney, and I left there mid 1989, so must have been before the 1990s.
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
It was in Sydney, and I left there mid 1989, so must have been before the 1990s.
I knew some young people up north excited by the idea and pretty much any get-rich-quick schemes, including Amway. Wealthy now through years of working hard in normal jobs.
Dabop
Graduate Poster
There were a lot of them still running in the Northern Rivers area of NSW as late as 2007 that I know of, they advertised regularly at the local RSL
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Amazing.
I'm reminded of something that P.T. Barnum is supposed to have said...
(Apparently not much evidence that he said it, but somehow he's associated with it.)
I'm reminded of something that P.T. Barnum is supposed to have said...
(Apparently not much evidence that he said it, but somehow he's associated with it.)
Diamonds aren't forever. 2.5 minute video of diamonds who left Amway or just quit Amway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-hogR9V5G8
Here's a gem. Money lost in Amway due to business expenses results in a tax refund (from taxes paid by a job) which the Amway distributor counts as a profit or at least "not a loss" LOL
https://transparencyofadreamer.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/losing-in-amway/
https://transparencyofadreamer.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/losing-in-amway/
And if you run a business at a loss for too many consecutive years the IRS starts to consider it a hobby and you lose your deductions.
Can you imagine introducing yourself at a party and someone asking what do you do?
Well, I'm an IT guy for BigCorp, but on the side I sell Amway.
That must be a nice little side business.
Oh no, the IRS says I have to cal it a hobby. But who's got time for golf anyway, right?
Sure. So, what about this weather, eh?
But they are the co-owners of Amway, not some distributor who built the business and walked away from it to enjoy untold wealth.
I'm fairly sure that the owners of a big MLM can rake in untold wealth even if the vast majority of their distributors fail and lose money.
Mr Salk
Thinker
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My parents were in Amway in the 70's/80's. At their level (Direct) they quit with a few hundred dollars per-month residuals. Many of their "up-line" at the time worked full time for Amway and were fairly well off (large homes, nice cars).
Ground floor of a Pyramid is always quite lucrative, although most of their work consisted of seminars and selling motivational-materials like Suze Orman and Tony Robbins. Most of the Diamond-Level and up had enough down-line to retire without working. As long as the down-line keeps chugging..
Do you know how long they received those residuals? FYI, having large home and nice cars can be had by incurring debt, which many Americans incur when living for the moment. I believe Amway folks are no different.
It's sort of a bait and switch scam. Show prospects wealth allegedly made from Amway and then make a significant income by selling the prospects and new distributors training and seminars.
As long as the downline keep chugging. That's an issue because the attrition rate is high in Amway.
Also, Amway sales have tanked. From 11.8 billion in revenue in 2013 to 8.6 billion in 2017. That is a significant decrease.
Agreed. But the suits and cadillacs were a facade. I suspect many of the trappings that diamonds show off in slide shows are not common and in fact, many "average" diamonds probably can't afford a lot of the stuff they put into their recruitment slide shows.
But then again, showing off a middle class lifestyle might not be so appealing.
Mr Salk
Thinker
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Diamonds are Diamonds. They earn the pin based on size and income of their down-line. The ones I knew in the 80's lived well above middle-class without 2nd jobs.
Granted a significant percentage of upper-level Amway income is derived from selling motivational materials. And clearly attrition-rates may derail retirement plans.
But Amway says once a diamond, always a diamond. In other words, it's possible for a diamond to earn the pin, have their business mostly fall apart, but still earn a nice income from selling motivational products, tools and
seminars.
I believe that diamonds are dependent on the tool income to live "above middle class" and that's why you don't see any of them (I don't know of any) "walk away" from Amway to enjoy a retirement funded by Amway residual income.
Anyone who walks away would likely see their Amway income disappear pretty quickly and I don't believe you receive tool income unless you are participating in the functions and meetings.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
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That’s the thing. Amway (or any other MLM) is not a sustainable business all on its own. The ones who make money have to make it through putting on seminars. Every MLM company out there that I’ve seen has some form of “training” program. The majority of those upper level people make money from putting those on, not from the MLM itself. As you mention, maybe that rare individual can achieve diamond but sustaining it consistently year over year is quite another thing. But once you have that title, you are a valuable trainer and have real opportunities there.
The other hundreds of thousands of people just keep paying. That podcast I mentioned earlier “The Dream” is doing a really good job illustrating the struggle most people experience z
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Mr Salk
Thinker
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Just like religion; you can't quit if you want salvation.
This is the reason why the "diamonds" have the mantra of never quitting Amway. Anyone who quits becomes a loss of potential income. A hard core dedicated downline is worth quite a bit to the diamond.
As far as I know, there are audios and downloads, books, voicemail, seminars and several monthly meetings which the diamonds profit from. Plus every couple of months, they hold a major seminar/function that might have tens of thousands of people in attendance.
I wonder how the faithful downline would feel if they knew that perhaps their upline diamond had hardly any Amway income but instead was making bank off selling them tools and functions but no longer had a qualified diamond business?
Donal
Philosopher
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Herbalife must be jacking their potential "down lines"
Tapes were replaced by cds and audio files but the content is mostly the same. (never quit and buy more Amway tools). They still have voicemail (who needs voicemail these days?). They still push certain books and they still have numerous recruitment meetings and functions where some guy will talk about how he was in a rut one day and suddenly Amway dropped in his lap and now he lives a luxurious lifestyle beyond his dreams.
What the Amway big shots don't say is that they achieve much of their "wealth" by selling Amway tools and not so much from Amway necessarily.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
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Every major MLM company out there these days has a “training” component. They mostly now take the form of live events; from small workshops to large conventions.
The training has very little content related to actually selling the product or building the business. Instead, it’s mostly self-help platitudes, ala Tony Robbins, but with a twist: If you aren’t doing well, it’s not the company or the product; no, there’s something wrong with you.
People aren’t “forced” to go to these things but your “team” will peer-pressure you into going. The small workshops might be $25 while the big conventions can be a lot more plus travel.
When you factor in these events, plus the traditional books, audio, etc, plus all the promotional stuff you have to buy...most people lose money.
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The training has very little content related to actually selling the product or building the business. Instead, it’s mostly self-help platitudes, ala Tony Robbins, but with a twist: If you aren’t doing well, it’s not the company or the product; no, there’s something wrong with you.
People aren’t “forced” to go to these things but your “team” will peer-pressure you into going. The small workshops might be $25 while the big conventions can be a lot more plus travel.
When you factor in these events, plus the traditional books, audio, etc, plus all the promotional stuff you have to buy...most people lose money.
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In my opinion, the MLM products are just there to prevent the whole thing from being a pyramid scheme.
In the meantime, MLM is essentially a bait and switch scam.
Come and get wealthy selling magical MLM products. But the key to success is the foolproof training system. Get plugged in, never miss meetings and you are sure to succeed!
Then when the MLM participant inevitably fails, it's the fault of the individual because he was lazy, or didn't follow instructions just right.
In the meantime, MLM is essentially a bait and switch scam.
Come and get wealthy selling magical MLM products. But the key to success is the foolproof training system. Get plugged in, never miss meetings and you are sure to succeed!
Then when the MLM participant inevitably fails, it's the fault of the individual because he was lazy, or didn't follow instructions just right.