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Old 14th September 2018, 04:21 AM   #1401
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That seems like a tall door, at least by UK standards (forgive me for still dwelling on thoughts of how high up the apartment number is placed).

A standard UK door handle would be between 3' and 3'6" high. (I guess that's pretty universal because everywhere has to accommodate tall people and wheelchair users.) But a UK door would be 6'6" or 6'8" high and even with the distortion of the wide angle lens that door looks more like 8' high.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:26 AM   #1402
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At this point, with the info I have, I do not believe that door was ajar.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:28 AM   #1403
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
She didn't not see a gun. (that's the standard, right?)
She didn't even not see a cell phone...
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:37 AM   #1404
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
At this point, with the info I have, I do not believe that door was ajar.
Begins to look that way. Particularly if the witness report of hearing a woman yelling to be let in was Guyger herself rather than someone else responding after the shooting.

That implies Jean opened the door and retreated to where he was shot 10-15 feet away.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:57 AM   #1405
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
A perfectly reasonable assumption, apparently.
It does seem according to some in this thread it's really just a shrug of the shoulders and a "crap happens" .
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:09 AM   #1406
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The floor looks like wood or more likely wood-laminate with a small rug in front of the couch. No developer is going to leave an apartment floor showing bare concrete.
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Flooring...g/N-5yc1vZbejk
I was unclear. The inside of the apartment does not appear to be concrete. When I said " both floors" I was referring to both Jeans' and Guyers' hallway floors.
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:12 AM   #1407
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I wonder if the grand jury will ask for different charge.

A second degree murder charge perhaps?

Was she going there to talk to him about noise levels or pot smoke infiltrating down to her apartment?

Did he get argumentative, and she was fed up so she just capped him?

Then come up with the wrong apartment story?

Did she confide in friends/fellow cops/ family, that she was tired of this guy above him keeping her awake? All potential witnesses that would not be in the police report or warrant request.

These are things we can't know unless we have apartment complaint records, perhaps voicemails from her asking him to quiet down, the Grand jury will get all of this info however.
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:33 AM   #1408
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I wonder if the grand jury will ask for different charge.

A second degree murder charge perhaps?

Was she going there to talk to him about noise levels or pot smoke infiltrating down to her apartment?

Did he get argumentative, and she was fed up so she just capped him?

Then come up with the wrong apartment story?

Did she confide in friends/fellow cops/ family, that she was tired of this guy above him keeping her awake? All potential witnesses that would not be in the police report or warrant request.

These are things we can't know unless we have apartment complaint records, perhaps voicemails from her asking him to quiet down, the Grand jury will get all of this info however.
What makes you so sure of that? Grand juries are shown or not shown whatever the prosecutor wants.
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:40 AM   #1409
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Grand Juries are typically allowed to ask questions, and there is also a judge presiding over this.

I see no reason that a prosecutor would not want to pursue the truth in this case, he doesn't want cops shooting innocent people. And certainly in this environment of BLM spotlighting police shootings, he will be under intense scrutiny.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:31 AM   #1410
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In North Carolina, the grand jury is basically a rubber stamp for whatever outcome the prosecutor wants.

It looks like Texas is the same.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #1411
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
In North Carolina, the grand jury is basically a rubber stamp for whatever outcome the prosecutor wants.

It looks like Texas is the same.
It's often said that any halfway competent prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Regarding why she had to go look at the apartment number, discussed above: I'm guessing once the event occurred and she looked around, she realized it wasn't hers.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:40 AM   #1412
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's often said that any halfway competent prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Regarding why she had to go look at the apartment number, discussed above: I'm guessing once the event occurred and she looked around, she realized it wasn't hers.
That makes the most sense. It was probably just garbled language, but an earlier link claimed that she "discovered" that she was in the wrong apartment when she went and looked at the door number. Which is illogical.
Perhaps they intended to report that she "confirmed" that is was not hers.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:48 AM   #1413
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
He opens the door. Sees a gun pointed at him. Retreats a few steps. Gets shot in the chest. Stumbles back a few steps. Collapses and dies.

10 to 15 feet doesn't seem particularly implausible.
I agree ... if there door was "ajar" OR if he actually unlocked it ... either scenario, can be supported by the physical evidence ... easily.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:54 AM   #1414
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Video of the inside of Jean's apartment has been posted by Inside Edition.

https://www.insideedition.com/media/...shot-cop-46779
Which includes footage of Guyger walking backwards and forwards outside the apartment, on the phone, after the event. I wonder how the apartment door was staying open at the time.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:54 AM   #1415
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
In North Carolina, the grand jury is basically a rubber stamp for whatever outcome the prosecutor wants.

It looks like Texas is the same.
My take is grand Jurys only real input is when case needs obvious recommendations ...

Then the papers can print "According to the grand jury 7 recommendations were made" ...

like .. cars should have seat belts, fire sprinklers are good .. etc.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:58 AM   #1416
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I agree ... if there door was "ajar" OR if he actually unlocked it ... either scenario, can be supported by the physical evidence ... easily.
The big thing is the ajar v opened angle. A poorly maintained or adjusted door may not close tight, at least not every time, or something could get wedged in, intentionally or accidentally. I think a lot of her justification hinges on this. If he actually opened it, it's a lot harder for her to maintain that she was mistaken about where she was (article upthread also said there was a potted plant on one floor but not the other, another detail she somehow missed). If he opened it and had time to retreat a dozen or so feet, I don't see any interpretation of her actions that would be justified. How could she not, by that time, say 'wait, where the hell am I?' and look around at the many, many things out of place. Even the smell of a guy's bachelor pad would be different than her place.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:02 AM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Which includes footage of Guyger walking backwards and forwards outside the apartment, on the phone, after the event. I wonder how the apartment door was staying open at the time.
An apparently underappreciated use of ballistic vests are their convenient door stop feature.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:03 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The big thing is the ajar v opened angle. A poorly maintained or adjusted door may not close tight, at least not every time, or something could get wedged in, intentionally or accidentally. I think a lot of her justification hinges on this. If he actually opened it, it's a lot harder for her to maintain that she was mistaken about where she was (article upthread also said there was a potted plant on one floor but not the other, another detail she somehow missed). If he opened it and had time to retreat a dozen or so feet, I don't see any interpretation of her actions that would be justified. How could she not, by that time, say 'wait, where the hell am I?' and look around at the many, many things out of place. Even the smell of a guy's bachelor pad would be different than her place.
Agreed .. it's within the realm of possibility the door was ajar, for any one of a dozen reasons. If it is somehow proven (How I do not know) that is was NOT ajar her story starts falling apart

Added to this I am interested i the blood sample .. was she drunk or not? ... I can't see this case being big enough to warrant the lab lying about it or faking the sample in anyway.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:04 AM   #1419
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
An apparently underappreciated use of ballistic vests are their convenient door stop feature.
Possible, although not a detail that has come to light amongst all the other - some more trvial - details that have.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:05 AM   #1420
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Given the timeframe we're looking at it I can't imagine her being drunk enough to matter without her being drunk on duty.

I mean even if she punched out, immediately when to the nearest bar, slammed a bunch of tequila shots, and then immediately went home the time frame wouldn't work.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:06 AM   #1421
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
An apparently underappreciated use of ballistic vests are their convenient door stop feature.
This made me laugh out loud!.

The old "flack vests" used to have hardened steel plates in them and weighed over 20 pounds ... I've seen them used as door stops many times
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:09 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Given the timeframe we're looking at it I can't imagine her being drunk enough to matter without her being drunk on duty.

I mean even if she punched out, immediately when to the nearest bar, slammed a bunch of tequila shots, and then immediately went home the time frame wouldn't work.
Drinking on the job is frowned upon and socially unacceptable by "normies" .. but believe me it's VERY popular, with select crowds.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:09 AM   #1423
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Agreed .. it's within the realm of possibility the door was ajar, for any one of a dozen reasons. If it is somehow proven (How I do not know) that is was NOT ajar her story starts falling apart.
It would seem very unlikely that the door would have been actually ajar, as it would have been obviously so before she tried to use the key. If it was unlatched it would be unlikely and also very unlucky under the circumstances. There doesn't appear to have been any reason for Jean to have done so deliberately, while a failure for the latch to engage seems even more unlikely. Any place I've encountered such a failure just impresses on me to be doubly careful about ensuring the proper closure of the same door subsequently.

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Old 14th September 2018, 08:15 AM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Drinking on the job is frowned upon and socially unacceptable by "normies" .. but believe me it's VERY popular, with select crowds.
Alcohol is second only to sex in America being oddly puritanical while paradoxically being completely overboard about.

Most healthy adults can have a beer or drink at lunch and have no problems so I'm not one of those people that would totally freak out if I saw an armed cop have a beer at lunch or something.

But if she's drunk to the point her judgement is impaired what a half hour, hour at most after getting off shift, there's almost no chance her judgement wasn't impaired on the job.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:15 AM   #1425
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Agreed .. it's within the realm of possibility the door was ajar, for any one of a dozen reasons. If it is somehow proven (How I do not know) that is was NOT ajar her story starts falling apart

Added to this I am interested i the blood sample .. was she drunk or not? ... I can't see this case being big enough to warrant the lab lying about it or faking the sample in anyway.
It may have been discussed already, if so I apologize for asking, but, is it possible for this door to be shut but unlocked?
I am thinking hotel door versus house door. In a hotel (at least in my experience) if the door latches it always locks.
In my home, I can shut the door completely, but unless I turn the deadbolt or the little lever located in the center of the knob the door is still unlocked, and could be opened without a key.

FWIW, I have stayed in hotels with self-closing doors that did not shut with sufficient force to cause the lock to engage, and required a little extra pull/or push to get the mechanism to lock.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:17 AM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It would seem very unlikely that the door would have been actually ajar, as it would have been obviously so before she tried to use the key. If it was unlatched it would unlikely and also very unlucky under the circumstances. The doesn't appear to have been any reason for Jean to have done so deliberately, while a failure for the latch to engage seem even more unlikely. Any place I've encountered such a failure just impresses on me to be doubly careful about ensuring the proper closure of the same door subsequently.
Agreed!
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:18 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Agreed .. it's within the realm of possibility the door was ajar, for any one of a dozen reasons. If it is somehow proven (How I do not know) that is was NOT ajar her story starts falling apart

Added to this I am interested i the blood sample .. was she drunk or not? ... I can't see this case being big enough to warrant the lab lying about it or faking the sample in anyway.
I doubt it. 15 hour day, and still in full uniform, walking distance from station...doubt it was Miller Time just yet.

Breaking out the tin-foil hats for a moment: it is plausible that she stopped by to tell him to please keep the noise down tonight, as she had complained about the noise that very morning. He answered the door, and went back in the apartment in a move she interpreted as going for a weapon...and it played out from there. Knowing she screwed the pooch, up comes the hasty cover story.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:20 AM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It may have been discussed already, if so I apologize for asking, but, is it possible for this door to be shut but unlocked?
It's entirely possible .. this lock has that option ... I read one early post refereeing to an article that said the doors have to be manually locked ... but no confirmation that makes me certain.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:22 AM   #1429
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.... it is plausible that she stopped by to tell him to please keep the noise down ...
This has been discussed, a bit edgy, but I think at least remotely possible
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:23 AM   #1430
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It may have been discussed already, if so I apologize for asking, but, is it possible for this door to be shut but unlocked?
I am thinking hotel door versus house door. In a hotel (at least in my experience) if the door latches it always locks.
In my home, I can shut the door completely, but unless I turn the deadbolt or the little lever located in the center of the knob the door is still unlocked, and could be opened without a key.

FWIW, I have stayed in hotels with self-closing doors that did not shut with sufficient force to cause the lock to engage, and required a little extra pull/or push to get the mechanism to lock.
Yeah, that's poor adjustment, and pretty common. Most have a separate bar that you flip from the inside to hold the door ajar. As a safety against people walking into a unit adjacent to a common area, they do have to lock shut unless the occupant flips that latch, which holds the door physically open. Jean's unit does not seem to have one.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:28 AM   #1431
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
This has been discussed, a bit edgy, but I think at least remotely possible
The same-day noise complaint and the reports of 'let me in' lend quite a bit of plausibility, but not a slam-dunk for sure
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:49 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, that's poor adjustment, and pretty common. Most have a separate bar that you flip from the inside to hold the door ajar. As a safety against people walking into a unit adjacent to a common area, they do have to lock shut unless the occupant flips that latch, which holds the door physically open. Jean's unit does not seem to have one.
As I said earlier, if there is no flip bar, you can just put the the deadbolt in the lock position and let it rest against the door jam.

I use this in hotel situations where I have the only key, and leave someone at the pool, I know they will be back shortly, and I am in the shower or napping.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:54 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
As I said earlier, if there is no flip bar, you can just put the the deadbolt in the lock position and let it rest against the door jam.

I use this in hotel situations where I have the only key, and leave someone at the pool, I know they will be back shortly, and I am in the shower or napping.
Should be doable. But I cant see any reason why she would try to insert a key into a deadbolt set that way. The door would be a few inches from the closed position and just there's no way she could have missed that.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #1434
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Should be doable. But I cant see any reason why she would try to insert a key into a deadbolt set that way. The door would be a few inches from the closed position and just there's no way she could have missed that.
I believe her contention is the door was ajar by only a milimeter or so ... this is usually caused by latch friction ...

If you gently let the door latch touch the frame it might stay open JUST before the latching point.

I've actually "FIXED" this problem by literally just wiping the latch with some siliva ... that's how subtle it is ... so even IF indeed the door didn't fully latch at the time ... just one person touching the latch might have eliminated the effect.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:41 AM   #1435
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I doubt it. 15 hour day, and still in full uniform, walking distance from station...doubt it was Miller Time just yet.

Breaking out the tin-foil hats for a moment: it is plausible that she stopped by to tell him to please keep the noise down tonight, as she had complained about the noise that very morning. He answered the door, and went back in the apartment in a move she interpreted as going for a weapon...and it played out from there. Knowing she screwed the pooch, up comes the hasty cover story.
She parked her car on the wrong floor, which leads me to believe she thought she was going to her apartment. If she wanted to complain about the music from his apartment, wouldn't she come home first, park like normal, put her things away, and then pay him a visit?
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:43 AM   #1436
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I guess the issue for the jury is whether all these coincidences happening at the same time are credible, or are beyond reasonable. One in a million perfect storms do, statistically, happen, and seem beyond the credible when they do.

But for me, she shot at an unarmed man, and she does not even claim she thought he had a weapon or presented a threat. Castle Doctrine or not, that's an endgame for me.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:45 AM   #1437
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
She parked her car on the wrong floor, which leads me to believe she thought she was going to her apartment. If she wanted to complain about the music from his apartment, wouldn't she come home first, park like normal, put her things away, and then pay him a visit?
Parking full on third floor, with no assigned parking? We don't have a reading on that yet, do we?

eta: also, if she actually planned to confront him about the noise, it is exactly the same amount of walking/elevatoring for her if she parked on the fourth or third floor. After a 15 hour shift, she might have specifically chose to park on his floor in order to confront him first, then down to her floor and back up the next morning. Confronting him in full police gear could conceivably be part of the plan.

Pure speculation, but plausible, fits the facts, and explains a lot.
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Last edited by Thermal; 14th September 2018 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:45 AM   #1438
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Carpeted halls are because those are indoor hallways and I would imagine it's to decrease noise of people walking by one's door.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:48 AM   #1439
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
At this point, with the info I have, I do not believe that door was ajar.
Unless the door shut but did not engage the latch. A lot of auto-shutting doors need you to pull them shut that last notch.

Not saying that happened and more importantly, I don't see how it makes much difference. There must have been many cues that wasn't her apt.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:49 AM   #1440
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Begins to look that way. Particularly if the witness report of hearing a woman yelling to be let in was Guyger herself rather than someone else responding after the shooting.

That implies Jean opened the door and retreated to where he was shot 10-15 feet away.
Yes, a more likely scenario.
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