So: Many experts now agree ... some birds use fire as a weapon.

Sideroxylon said:
These raptors can always be seen in numbers circling and swooping around the many small, cool bushfires that are starting to consume a season’s worth of dry grass and fallen timber. If I had more time I might have pulled off the road on my way home today and watched the birds working one such fire.
Click to expand...


How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?!
 
dann said:
How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?!
Click to expand...

Not hard at all. Just have to be there at the right time. But must as not every heron will go fishing with a piece of bread that you throw it, not every hawk is going to engage in this behaviour every time.

However if you have a lot of time on your hands and are keen enough it seems worthwhile to put in the hours of observation and recording their behaviour around fires.
 
dann said:
What makes you think that I think that every inch of Oz is covered by CCTV???




I am?! That's news to me! Where exactly am I extrapolating that?! What I've been pointing out for a very long time is that this alleged phenomenon with so much anecdotal evidence behind it still hasn't been captured on film, in spite of all the cameras everywhere. Apparently some bushfires do break out in areas with CCTV, and some people make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds - so far with nothing to show for it.
If I were to argue like you and macdoc, I would now resort to something along the lines of: After 40,000 years of eyewitness reports - and still not one second of actual footage!
Click to expand...
Firstly the cctv cameras were not at the park, they were in the surrounding areas...
Secondly, people are not only dissuaded from "make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds", but can (and will) face criminal charges if they do not leave the area when told to by firefighters (and they will be, it's a dangerous place to be, firefighters have died fighting fires)
Thirdly firefighters themselves tend not to be wandering around ignoring the fire to watch and film the birds...

As some may have mentioned before, Oz is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated, it is not confirmed, neither is it unconfirmed. I have no doubt there are many places that have never had a single photo or video taken of them ever, yet do these places not exist?

And with that, I am leaving the conversation unless something new comes up, it is pointless going around and around over the same points
 
So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so!
1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds.
2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so.
3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!)

Yes, it all seems very logical!
We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!)
 
Last edited:
dann said:
So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so!
1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds.
2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so.
3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!)

Yes, it all seems very logical!
We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!)
Click to expand...

Straw burns well.
 
Wow Dann your ignorance of Australia, how to film wildlife, especially birds in flight and even the tenents of skepticism are sure on full display in that rant. :rolleyes:
 
Avian arsonists spreading fire through the ages

I almost forgot this one, which shows that the the UK seems to have been haunted by these fire-starting birds even as late as the 1950s! And they also appear to be terrorizing Central Park in New York! It’s about time something was done about this menace to humanity!
There’s even a picture of brave firefighters trying to put out the burning twigs carried by these devious dino descendants!

Burton linked this avian love of fire and smoke to “anting”, which typically involves birds disturbing ants’ nests to expose themselves to formic acid that may act as a fungicide, bactericide and insect repellent. He cites a report by a fire brigade officer in 1950s Guildford, UK, of a nest smouldering in a tree, and he notes of a fire 8 metres up a tree in New York’s Central Park that “it is one of the unfortunate features of these entries in fire-brigade journals that they are laconic in the extreme”.
Avian arsonists spreading fire through the ages (New Scientist, Feb. 3, 2018, p. 52)
Click to expand...
 
So still no evidence of birds starting fires? Apart from old myths and hear-say ...
Well, that makes sense.
It's not that no research is done into to relationship between birds and fires, real research, but still not a single piece of evidence in the case of the fire-starting birds!
 
Cut it out. Underestimate birds’ intelligence at your own peril.

But to raise the igNoble awards in support of your own shaky position smacks of desperation.

I have nothing against you and enjoy many of your posts, but the way you have ignored evidence contrary to your views in this thread is just sad.
 
No actual evidence was ever presented.
And pointing out that no evidence was presented has nothing to do with underestimating birds' intelligence. I can appreciate birds' intelligence without making up stories about birds starting fires. Strawman.
I look forward to either proof that they do or the acknowledgement that, no, now we've been trying to film birds starting fires for decades, but we have to admit that they don't seem to do so, so the claim that they do was probably false.
 
Remember that the aim of the paper was to try to prove that Dreamtime stories are historical documents. If it were the Bible and not the Noble Savage syndrome, most proponents of this idea would not be so vociferous in their support of this idea.

This is religious science and as such, doesn’t rely on the same level of scrutiny of “data”.
Anecdotes = data therefore TRUE.
 
sure :rolleyes:

It is a fundamental requirement of scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world, rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation.

Hence, science is considered to be methodologically empirical in nature.
Click to expand...

Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't.

New Australian Night Parrots Discovery — Extinct Birds Found Alive ...
https://www.audubon.org/.../yes-more-australian-night-parrots-have-been-discovered
Nov 1, 2016 - The nocturnal bird is so rare that it was once thought to be extinct.
Click to expand...

documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief".......
That only shows the level of your ignorance....
With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked....
your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field.

Pathetic hardly covers it. :boggled:

Observations and video and still nothing conclusive

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...r/news-story/6303cfd3b4594ff6a19275ca0f21d89c

It means that there is material worth pursuing.

Significant snip

“Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
macdoc said:
sure :rolleyes:

Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.
Click to expand...
I guess you're right.
I wonder why they included all that junk about Aboriginal myths etc in the paper's references then?

References Cited
…
Berndt, R. M., and C. H. Berndt. 1994. The Speaking Land. Myth and Story in Aboriginal Australia. Inner Traditions International, Rochester, VT.
…
Capell, A. 1960a. The Wandarang and Other Tribal Myths of the Yabuduruwa Ritual. Oceania 30:206–224. Crossref,

Capell, A. 1960b. Myths and Tales of the Nunggubuyu, S. E. Arnhem Land. Oceania 31:31–62. Crossref,
…
Frazer, J. G. 1930. Myths of the Origin of Fire: An Essay. MacMillan and Co, London, UK.
…
Holmes, C., dir.1965. The Yabuduwra Ceremony of the Lower Roper River [Film].Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies, Canberra.
…
Maddock, K. J. 1969. The Jabuduruwa: A Study of the Structure of Rite and Myth in an Australian Aboriginal Religious Cult on the Beswick Reserve, Northern Territory. Unpublished Doctoral Dissertation, University of Sydney, Sydney.

Maddock, K. J. 1970. Myths of the Acquisition of Fire in Northern and Eastern Australia. InAustralian Aboriginal Anthropology: Modern Studies in the Social Anthropology of the Australian Aborigines, edited by R. M. Berndt, pp. 174–199. University of Western Australia Press, Perth.
…
Waterman, P. P. 1987. A Tale-Type Index of Australian Aboriginal Oral Narratives. Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, Helsinki, Finland. Google Scholar
​

And let's not forget.
...
Tidemann, S., and A. Gosler. 2010. Ethno-ornithology: Birds, Indigenous Peoples, Culture and Society. Earthscan, London UK and Washington D.C.
…
An except on ethno-ornithology?
This book looks at the significance of indigenous knowledge of birds and their cultural significance, and how these can assist in framing research methods of western scientists working in related areas​

The fact that this is ethno-biology should be a huge hint to you that it is ALL tied up with indigenous myth and legend.
Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't.
Click to expand...
... until definitive evidence for its existence was brought to the scientific community.

Wake me in a century when this lot have more that mere anecdotes. Perhaps then the accepted wisdom will be turned on it's head.
In the meantime - uncompelling.
documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief".......
Click to expand...
I am sceptical. Belief has nothing to do with it.

Remember the Ivory-billed Woodpecker fiasco?
Accepted wisdom was the IBWP was extinct - until it was found to be (again).
Mountains and mountains of anecdotal "evidence", costing millions of dollars to collect, collate and study, only underlined the fact that it is still extinct.
That only shows the level of your ignorance....
With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked....
your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field.
Click to expand...
IBWP QED.
Pathetic hardly covers it. :boggled:
Click to expand...
ad hom attacks are usually the last resort of an argument being lost. . .
Observations and video and still nothing conclusive
Click to expand...
This is exactly my point. Inconclusive.

So the sensible position (e.g., Night Parrot and IBWP) is that it has not been demonstrated.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...r/news-story/6303cfd3b4594ff6a19275ca0f21d89c

It means that there is material worth pursuing.
Click to expand...
But has it been?
I mean, but actual biologists, not some unqualified nutjob with a website and a Facebook page.
If not, why not?

You would have thought his claim of 4700 thylacine sightings since it was declared extinct should have elicited some interest from the scientific community. That seems way more "evidence" than the other lot have for fire-starting kites.
 
macdoc said:
“Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You are aware that this is what it always comes down to when we are dealing with woos, aren't you?
'You have to keep an open mind!'
However, I don't think that any of the participants in this thread who are skeptical about the idea that birds start fires (and that they do so deliberately!) have declared that it is impossible and completely out the question that birds might be able to start fires and maybe even to do so deliberately. We also don't hate birds or look down on them. (Nor do we despise the indigenous population of Australia, but we do know that they weren't scientifically educated observers.)
What we are saying is that those of you who believe in the idea should be aware that there is no actual proof - instead of resorting to wooism just because somebody doubts your favourite hypothesis.
I tend to think that this proof will never appear. You, macdoc and others, think that it will.

Observations and video and still nothing conclusive
Click to expand...
So far: anecdotal evidence only.

What I have been pointing out is that, this day and age, the more anecdotal evidence you have, the more bothered I am by the lack of real footage, real evidence, because nowadays everybody has a video recording device.
(Birds are more difficult to fake than Bigfoot, of course, so if actual reliable footage appears, you'll have convinced me.)
 
These are not extraordinary claims. There is helping yourself to the ontological buffet of your imagination thereby ignoring Occam’s razor.
 
macdoc said:
Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.
Click to expand...

By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption. :boggled::eye-poppi:jaw-dropp
 
rockinkt said:
By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption. :boggled::eye-poppi:jaw-dropp
Click to expand...

Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real.
 
Last edited:
Sideroxylon said:
Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real.
Click to expand...

The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence.
 
Last edited:
rockinkt said:
The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence.
Click to expand...

Do you agree with the concept of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence? If so what kind of evidence do mundane claims require?

The out of hand dismissal of indigenous lore and packing it off as religion is undeserved.
 
For that reason alone, our relationship to them is unlike our connection to any other ... The intellect of birds is arguably the closest in the animal world to our own.
Click to expand...
from

9780812983760

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/219945/the-wonder-of-birds-by-jim-robbins/9780812983760/
Spend a little money and learn something....

Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc
...but some seem to think they are extraordinary claims......pure unadulterated horsepucky

Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect...:rolleyes:

Indigenes all over the planet and to this day use fire to hunt and have perhaps even before modern humans arose. Why ever would you consider it beyond a carnivore that has dwelt in the region of fire and brush for millenia to sort it out?
Related species pack hunt and the 3 species of raptor involved are patently NOT in the least afraid of fire.

Crows can figure out problems from first principles merely by looking at the available materials and the problem .....without trial and error.
Living thylacine in Queensland requires extraordinary proof....not a smart predator spreading fire to hunt.
 
macdoc said:
Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc
Click to expand...


You can resort to :rolleyes: as much as you want, but it doesn't really support your claim. For some reason fire and the wheel are celebrated as extraordinary human accomplishments. Sticks? No, not so much ...
By the way, have you seen the footage of chimps spearing hushbabies and using rocks to crack nuts? Have you seen footage of gulls cracking snails and mussels by dropping them onto stones from a great height? Have you seen footage of otters using rocks to crack shell fish? Have you seen footage of dolphins using bubble nets to trap fish? Have you seen footage of crows and parrots solving relatively complicated problems?
So have we!!!
What we are still missing is footage of birds starting fires! You seem to think that the other cases support your claim. They don't. On the contrary, actually. They just serve to make the difference much more obvious.
(We have also seen footage of the okapi. We haven't seen any of Bigfoot. Does that tell you anything?!)


Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


So you consider the call for proof to be a sign of inferior intelligence. I'm not at all surprised.
 
Last edited:
ABC captures black kite starting fire

Or certainly that's what the trailer for their new short natural histories series, "The Magical Land of Oz" seems to want us to think.
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/magical-land-of-oz

In the trailer we see a closeup of the head/shoulders of, what looks like, a Black Kite picking up a smouldering brand in it's beak. Cut to Black Kite in flight dropping burning brand (it looks to me) held in its talons. Cut to bushfire.

It should be noted that the introduction on the trailer states,
"For tens of thousands of years, indigenous people have been telling the stories of this ancient land and its creatures."

It is not called magical by mistake. A number of other shorts from their Facebook page also allude to magic in the supernatural sense of the world.

It will be interesting to find out where (or how) they obtained that short footage. Trained bird? CGI? Real life?

Too bad we have to wait until next week for the "Land" episode to find out.
Of course, being a public entity, the ABC is probably obliged to answer such a question if it was put to their production group.
 
EHocking said:
Probably due to country restrictions.

I’ll be looking for shareable media after the show has aired.
Click to expand...

If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries).

Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local?
 
novaphile said:
If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries).

Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local?
Click to expand...
I won’t be disappointed.
(hint: my hint was to Skeptic Ginger who was unable to view the trailer)
 
I contacted them to both ask for permission to use that portion of the clip, plus asked who was the original person who shot it, hopefully will get something back
 
I've watched it (I'm in Oz, so it works fine for me) it clearly shows a raptor picking up a smoldering stick, and then of it dropping it again, I was hoping to find the location etc of the original footage and who shot it
 
Is that supposed to be the same bird with the same stick in both photos?
Click to expand...

you are meant to think that certainly. Clearly some more detail is needed. Second bird is for sure a kite which are on of the suspect species and are all over the outback

The next episode is on in 1/2 hour Brisbane Aus time on SBS.

https://www.episodate.com/tv-show/the-magical-land-of-oz
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom