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Tags cycling , LGBT issues , Rachel McKinnon , sports incidents , sports issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 18th October 2018, 10:02 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know they're not right now, but would an open competition that specified the same pull weight for all competitors be "fair"? Or would the male muscular advantage still close out women from the top levels of such a sport?

Actually, what about shooting competitions? The guns are all identical. What do open shooting competitions look like.

And speaking of shooting competitions, the elephant in the room is military service.
Regarding the elephant, in what way? The military forces have particular physical requirements for personnel, there's no reason gender needs to come into it is there?
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:03 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There are literally hundreds of sporting bodies/authorities/federations/associations and so on, pretty much every major sport will have a "official" governing body and they will be free (unless they've agreed to follow some other organisations rules) to decide whatever criteria they want to use as their entry criteria.

If a women is good enough and wants to compete in a men's league in most western countries it 's difficult to prevent her from doing so.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:04 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False premise. There really isn’t any such thing as “male only sports/leagues” If a women wanted to compete in the more popular higher salary league and was good enough to earn a spot, in most first world democracies it would effectively be impossible to keep her out. Comparing best vs best leagues with best women vs best women leagues isn’t apples to apples.
Think you may be mistaken.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:05 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regarding the elephant, in what way? The military forces have particular physical requirements for personnel, there's no reason gender needs to come into it is there?
But we can't keep gender out of it is the problem.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:06 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know they're not right now, but would an open competition that specified the same pull weight for all competitors be "fair"? Or would the male muscular advantage still close out women from the top levels of such a sport?

Actually, what about shooting competitions? The guns are all identical. What do open shooting competitions look like.

And speaking of shooting competitions, the elephant in the room is military service.
Equal weight bows would make the advantage less. There's still an element of control involved where muscle helps. On the other hand, if you set the required weight too high, it would exclude more women than men.

"Fair" is a loaded and overused word, but restrictions on bow pull weight could minimize men's advantage.

I don't know how it affects shooting. I would think there wouldn't be a huge advantage for men, but I don't know.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:08 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No same football. The divisions (at least the ones that aren't purely organizational) between NFL and NCAA Div 1 are the sort of arbitrary segregation of players of different skill and ability level we're talking about.

Wrong. The original reference was to what Americans would call soccer, and what the rest of the world calls football. It had nothing whatsoever to do with American football.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:10 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Wrong. The original reference was to what Americans would call soccer, and what the rest of the world calls football. It had nothing whatsoever to do with American football.
Isn't the point valid regardless?
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:20 AM   #248
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Another point is that professional sports are all sports that men created and designed around how males like to play and males like to watch. The answer has been to put female catagories in place. The result of that is we have people claiming female sports are garbage because the best female athletes can't compete with the best male athletes. The solution is to professionalize female dominant sports but the you have those same people saying "I wouldn't watch that crap!"

Our society is set up to honour men and it is ingrained in our conscious. It is easier to get past that if something else is at play. The Canadian women's hockey team sold out all their games at the Vancouver Olympics because they were playing for their country. That works as long as it is a male sport that females are playing. It didn't work so well for female sports. Those are still left for spectators who want to ogle female bodies.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:32 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Think you may be mistaken.
Labor laws still apply in any professional sports, so they can’t tell someone “we won't hire you because you are a woman”.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:43 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Another point is that professional sports are all sports that men created and designed around how males like to play and males like to watch. The answer has been to put female catagories in place. The result of that is we have people claiming female sports are garbage because the best female athletes can't compete with the best male athletes. The solution is to professionalize female dominant sports but the you have those same people saying "I wouldn't watch that crap!"

Our society is set up to honour men and it is ingrained in our conscious. It is easier to get past that if something else is at play. The Canadian women's hockey team sold out all their games at the Vancouver Olympics because they were playing for their country. That works as long as it is a male sport that females are playing. It didn't work so well for female sports. Those are still left for spectators who want to ogle female bodies.
The flagship female-dominant sport seems to be women's gymnastics... Which is actually dominated by juveniles. Though I wonder... Would a twenty year-old man doing a floor routine have a thrust-to-weight-ratio advantage over a thirteen year-old girl?

Hm.

What about ballet? It's not a sport, but it is a demonstration of physical prowess, where excellence is highly esteemed. It's also co-ed, with male and female performers sharing the stage and performing alongside each other. Does ballet choreography take into account the physical differences between the sexes? Or does that difference get erased by the extremity of the selection process?
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:46 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The flagship female-dominant sport seems to be women's gymnastics... Which is actually dominated by juveniles. Though I wonder... Would a twenty year-old man doing a floor routine have a thrust-to-weight-ratio advantage over a thirteen year-old girl?

Hm.

What about ballet? It's not a sport, but it is a demonstration of physical prowess, where excellence is highly esteemed. It's also co-ed, with male and female performers sharing the stage and performing alongside each other. Does ballet choreography take into account the physical differences between the sexes? Or does that difference get erased by the extremity of the selection process?
Figure skating.

Men do it better, but women are more popular, and children don't have a huge advantage.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:04 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Figure skating.

Men do it better, but women are more popular, and children don't have a huge advantage.
Good point. I remember a recent podcast - ESPN's 30 for 30 (great podcast) - about a phenomenal figure skater who was deprecated because she had the muscles to perform routines that emphasized power over grace.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:28 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Figure skating.

Men do it better, but women are more popular, and children don't have a huge advantage.
Do regular people really give a **** about a triple axel? Women are more graceful than men, and better looking, so their ice dancing will play about as well.

What's the term for bodies that make more aesthetic movements?

ETA: One difference between women and men is that the former seem more likely achieve social status by playing individual sports.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:49 AM   #254
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Not quite sports, but women’s role is sports entertainment (“wrestling”) is changing and in some cases women can rival the men for match quality. At it’s best it’s about storytelling, which women can do just as well as men. Men can do big athletic spots that women can’t, but that’s a double edged sword because they are more prone to falling back on this which hurts match quality in the long run.
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:47 PM   #255
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Where does it stop?

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Old 18th October 2018, 02:52 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Where does it stop?

https://i.imgur.com/qF0XdDT.jpg
Is it ok for a man to hit a woman? If they agree to fight, yes.

Equality, remember?
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:02 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The problem with a historical fact?
You claimed a causal relationship between a past historical fact and a current situation which isn't supported by anything and is contradicted by evidence.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:09 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regarding the elephant, in what way? The military forces have particular physical requirements for personnel, there's no reason gender needs to come into it is there?
Sure, gender doesn't need to come into physical requirements for the military. But it does. Requirements are often lower for women than for men.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:10 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is it ok for a man to hit a woman? If they agree to fight, yes.

Equality, remember?
In at least one fight, the woman didn't know she was fighting against a transgender. That isn't informed consent.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:16 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The flagship female-dominant sport seems to be women's gymnastics... Which is actually dominated by juveniles. Though I wonder... Would a twenty year-old man doing a floor routine have a thrust-to-weight-ratio advantage over a thirteen year-old girl?
Floor routine is a good comparison, since they both do it. But where women really excel and men wouldn't keep up is balance beam. It requires a level of spinal flexibility that men just don't have. Plus, some of the moves would be nut crushers.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:43 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Floor routine is a good comparison, since they both do it. But where women really excel and men wouldn't keep up is balance beam. It requires a level of spinal flexibility that men just don't have. Plus, some of the moves would be nut crushers.
Also why the men don't compete in the uneven parallel bars routine. Add in penis crushers.
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Old 18th October 2018, 04:06 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What's the term for bodies that make more aesthetic movements?
I think the term is lithe.
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Old 18th October 2018, 06:07 PM   #263
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I think we have overlooked one sport where although men and women do not compete directly, women have really grown their side of the sport and that is MMA. Since about 2012 events with female headliners have been able to sell out large stadiums just like events with male headliners. Granted there are not as many divisions and fighters on the women's side but they do draw crowds.
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Old 18th October 2018, 06:30 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I think we have overlooked one sport where although men and women do not compete directly, women have really grown their side of the sport and that is MMA. Since about 2012 events with female headliners have been able to sell out large stadiums just like events with male headliners. Granted there are not as many divisions and fighters on the women's side but they do draw crowds.


Still separate women’s divisions. We are still not at the social place where men can beat up women and it be a-ok.


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Old 18th October 2018, 06:48 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regarding the elephant, in what way? The military forces have particular physical requirements for personnel, there's no reason gender needs to come into it is there?
Ummm, no. To pass basic training, a 17-21-year-oild male US Army recruit must post a time of 16:36 or better in the two-mile run. A female US Army recruit of the same age must post a time of 19:42 or better.
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Old 18th October 2018, 08:16 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think the term is lithe.
No, it's a technical term relating to biomechanics.
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Old 18th October 2018, 08:25 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, gender doesn't need to come into physical requirements for the military. But it does. Requirements are often lower for women than for men.
They lower the requirements as people age, too.
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Old 18th October 2018, 09:20 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Still separate women’s divisions. We are still not at the social place where men can beat up women and it be a-ok.
1- Yeah I said that.

2- Who decided it was desirable for women to compete against men?
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Old 18th October 2018, 09:34 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
2- Who decided it was desirable for women to compete against men?
Transgender activists
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:49 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You claimed a causal relationship between a past historical fact and a current situation which isn't supported by anything and is contradicted by evidence.
Oh this should be good, your contradictory evidence?
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:51 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Ummm, no. To pass basic training, a 17-21-year-oild male US Army recruit must post a time of 16:36 or better in the two-mile run. A female US Army recruit of the same age must post a time of 19:42 or better.
No to what?
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Old 19th October 2018, 01:59 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay but statistical breakouts are a different thing then overall demographic data.
She has a very unusual history as well.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:00 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If everyone is using bows with the same pull, wouldn't that replace the man's muscular advantage with excess and irrelevant muscle?

An 80-pound bow (or whatever) throws an arrow the same distance regardless of who pulls it, yes?

Yes, but if you're stronger you can hold the draw for longer without the risk of wobbling.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:19 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Women's Cycling Champion is a Man
No, actually she's not.
And seriously, "Lifesitenews"? The mouthpiece for 'Campaign Life Coalition' the Canadian home of radical Catholic reactionary bigotry. Even run-of-the-mill Catholic apologists consider them nuts.
Is this a sign that you support their "traditional family values", i.e. no working women, no same-sex marriage, no protections of homosexuals, no sex education, criminalisation of homosexuality, no pre-marital sex, and no access to contraception?
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:40 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No, actually she's not.
And seriously, "Lifesitenews"? The mouthpiece for 'Campaign Life Coalition' the Canadian home of radical Catholic reactionary bigotry. Even run-of-the-mill Catholic apologists consider them nuts.
Is this a sign that you support their "traditional family values", i.e. no working women, no same-sex marriage, no protections of homosexuals, no sex education, criminalisation of homosexuality, no pre-marital sex, and no access to contraception?
Why would you assume that someone siting a source endorses everything that the source endorses? He was citing the source in respect to the facts, nothing else.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:57 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Oh this should be good, your contradictory evidence?
Well, you're right. If you ignore the evidence, it's like it doesn't exist.

But look, instead, let's try it: just mix the two together and let's see what happens over the next 20 years.
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Old 19th October 2018, 06:50 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Transgender activists
Not sure they have the power some seem to think they do.
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Old 19th October 2018, 07:55 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That isn't really an artifact of the sport, but of culture, and Anglo-American culture not really valuing women in sports. As has been noted by myself and others, women's sports at any tier are overall nowhere near as popular as men's sports even at lower tiers, they don't have the exposure, money, or popular acclaim that the upper tiers of men's sports have, and likely never will without huge changes to the culture.

In the US at least, men's collegiate sports are much more popular, and bigger business, than their professional female equivalents. Continued segregation isn't really going to change that.

The problems with a mixed-gender tier system are not notable worse than the current female sporting ghetto, and may actually improve things a bit by allowing the best female athletes into the higher tiers dominated by men.

As a matter of full disclosure, I'm not particularly a fan of professional sports as a whole, sport should be more participatory, and less spectacle.
You just mansplained sports to sports fans.

That is equality.
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Old 19th October 2018, 07:59 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
The factual issues with it were addressed by others. What makes me so sad is that ten years ago, we would have seen creationists react in such a predictably scripted, NPC manner. Its like we didn't learn from our fight with them, except to steal all their tactics.
The problem with us on the left right now in a nutshell.

It was ****** when they did it, but when we are doing it is creative tactics.
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Old 19th October 2018, 08:02 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay let's go even further down the rabbit hole. Why are all the major, organized Chess championships segregated by gender, and in some cases age?

Hell you might as well give chess weight classes for all the sense that makes.
More men tend to pay competitively, leading to a larger talent pool, this would lead to women being sick in the bottom rungs of any ladder with possibly a few exceptions.

Segregating allows fairer competition among a smaller pool.
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