Anybody care to defend Steve King?

pgwenthold said:
Really?

King has just been re-elected to Congress. No one from Antifa is ever even nominated.
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"In fairness the Republicans have found a place to put their extremists. Problem is that place is public office." - Bill Maher.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, this came up earlier. I would be very, very concerned if pretty much everyone participating here did not agree 95% with antifa. Considering that the foundation of antifa is to oppose naziism, that's a damn good position to hold.

I don't agree with all of it, for sure, but the premise is exactly correct. Or at least, I'd hope everyone can agree with it.
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I was not drawing a comparison of actors in the outside world, merely folks on this forum. Which I think is entirely accurate in this case. There are posters who make a habit of hasty generalizations regarding the opposition and they seem to use the more extreme members of this forum as their model for the other side.
 
@Brainster,
Yes, the start of the answer is for Republicans to reclaim the respect they claim we no longer give them and condemn the racists and bigots. Take back your party. Congresspersons, Senators and Governors (and local candidates) are so afraid of the well-organized TP-offshoot minority and getting "primaried" that they initially defended these reprobates as "everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with it". Then they ceded the local party to them in several states. Now, having created the monster that can devour them, they either push their policies and politics to that extreme side or they get out of the business.

Look at the disgraceful actions of the bigoted minority in Tarrant County in Texas. Rosey Redneck has started a #TakeBackOurParty meme and wants to railroad out a county leader,.... because he's Muslim. He's a Muslim Republican. He was nominated and appointed to his position by other Republicans. The only complaint against him is that he's a Muslim and thus can't be trusted. Seriously. And the "respectable" Republicans' reaction? Well, if this motion goes through, they'll probably leave the party! No one's said, "Whoa! Throw that bigoted snotrag out of the party. Not one. The northern county redneck vote is too important to them.

So I'd like to see Republicans who take exception to being lumped in with the bigots, misogynists and xenophobes take her hashtag away from her and Take Back Your Party. Do not treat Steve King as the respectable member from Iowa, but as a bigoted anomaly. Turn your backs on him when he speaks in the House, for instance. Go out and apologize to the Latino minority IN HIS DISTRICT (home of the Devin Nunes family dairy business, by the way). Do something that shows that you've got the gumption to stand up to the well-organized minority.

Or continue to be condemned as part of the problem - a large part of the problem.
 
So anyway, here's another thread on racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. We're now 8 pages in. When these threads develop, I am puzzled as to how such attitudes are defended from a position of science, evidence, reason, etc. This is a Skeptics' forum, after all. This should be a place where the best examples of critical thinking are on display.

As I've done in other threads on race, I've repeatedly asked for the folks defending bigoted attitudes to provide the evidence that supports their position. Where even is the scientific defense of race, let alone that of racism?

Silence. Folks don't even attempt to answer such questions. What can we conclude other than that race, racism, etc., are not supported by our best scientific evidence? Therefore, our most ardent defenders of such attitudes are little different from the woo slingers who argue here for all manner of other nonsense. Let Hitchens' Razor be our guide: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
 
The Shrike said:
So anyway, here's another thread on racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. We're now 8 pages in. When these threads develop, I am puzzled as to how such attitudes are defended from a position of science, evidence, reason, etc. This is a Skeptics' forum, after all. This should be a place where the best examples of critical thinking are on display.
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We're in a Post-truth world. The "No True Skeptic" card has been nerfed pretty hard.
 
ahhell said:
I was not drawing a comparison of actors in the outside world, merely folks on this forum. Which I think is entirely accurate in this case. There are posters who make a habit of hasty generalizations regarding the opposition and they seem to use the more extreme members of this forum as their model for the other side.
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Since you're limiting it to folks on this forum, could I trouble you for some examples? Personal integrity, marked by the self-awareness to recognize when one is wrong and the courage to change one's views in light of it, is a critical element in keeping my respect. I have not seen that demonstrated by Trump supporters on this forum.* Most of the conservatives who have done are, for logical reasons, no longer Trump supporters.

*In the USA politics forum, that is. It's amazing how otherwise reasonable people can become completely irrational in defense of their sacred cows.
 
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The Shrike said:
So anyway, here's another thread on racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. We're now 8 pages in. When these threads develop, I am puzzled as to how such attitudes are defended from a position of science, evidence, reason, etc. This is a Skeptics' forum, after all. This should be a place where the best examples of critical thinking are on display.

As I've done in other threads on race, I've repeatedly asked for the folks defending bigoted attitudes to provide the evidence that supports their position. Where even is the scientific defense of race, let alone that of racism?

Silence. Folks don't even attempt to answer such questions. What can we conclude other than that race, racism, etc., are not supported by our best scientific evidence? Therefore, our most ardent defenders of such attitudes are little different from the woo slingers who argue here for all manner of other nonsense. Let Hitchens' Razor be our guide: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
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The farthest they've gone statistically is pointing to crime stats. When I bring up lead pollution as a confounding factor, all I get is silence. I've presented studies showing how diversity is beneficial, especially in business. No studies have been presented that I can recall that show diversity is a bad thing - it's only claimed and never seriously defended. If the racists are skeptical, they certainly don't apply skepticism to their own cherished beliefs.
 
ahhell said:
There seems to a negative correlation between diversity and folks opinion of charity and social welfare spending. More diversity makes people less charitable, maybe.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w17618
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Interesting area for research, I see studies related to that also, with similar or different conclusions. How much would that contribute to the overall net economic and well-being impact?
 
LSSBB said:
Interesting area for research, I see studies related to that also, with similar or different conclusions. How much would that contribute to the overall net economic and well-being impact?
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One of the mechanisms that has been semi-supported by the data from that studies and those like it is; racism.

That is to say, people give less to public charity when they think that a 'group' other than their own will benefit.

I cannot recall where I was reading that as it was many years ago.
 
tyr_13 said:
One of the mechanisms that has been semi-supported by the data from that studies and those like it is; racism.

That is to say, people give less to public charity when they think that a 'group' other than their own will benefit.

I cannot recall where I was reading that as it was many years ago.
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I was wondering that myself.

ETA: Racial bias is correctable when it's not intentional, so mitigating strategies can be implemented.
 
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tyr_13 said:
One of the mechanisms that has been semi-supported by the data from that studies and those like it is; racism.

That is to say, people give less to public charity when they think that a 'group' other than their own will benefit.

I cannot recall where I was reading that as it was many years ago.
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Isn't that the entire basis of the "welfare queen" epithet?
 
LSSBB said:
The farthest they've gone statistically is pointing to crime stats. When I bring up lead pollution as a confounding factor,
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socioeconomics
racial profiling
biases in sentencing

Lots of reasons why black and brown people are over-represented in prisons; they're much better explained as evidence for systemic racism.
 
tyr_13 said:
One of the mechanisms that has been semi-supported by the data from that studies and those like it is; racism.

That is to say, people give less to public charity when they think that a 'group' other than their own will benefit.

I cannot recall where I was reading that as it was many years ago.
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It's right there in the abstract:
The ethnic diversity effect is driven by a within-group disposition among non-minorities, and is most evident in high income, but low education areas.
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Translation: rich, dumb white people give less if they think a brown person is going to get their money.
 
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Foolmewunz said:
@Brainster,
Yes, the start of the answer is for Republicans to reclaim the respect they claim we no longer give them and condemn the racists and bigots. Take back your party. Congresspersons, Senators and Governors (and local candidates) are so afraid of the well-organized TP-offshoot minority and getting "primaried" that they initially defended these reprobates as "everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with it". Then they ceded the local party to them in several states. Now, having created the monster that can devour them, they either push their policies and politics to that extreme side or they get out of the business.

Look at the disgraceful actions of the bigoted minority in Tarrant County in Texas. Rosey Redneck has started a #TakeBackOurParty meme and wants to railroad out a county leader,.... because he's Muslim. He's a Muslim Republican. He was nominated and appointed to his position by other Republicans. The only complaint against him is that he's a Muslim and thus can't be trusted. Seriously. And the "respectable" Republicans' reaction? Well, if this motion goes through, they'll probably leave the party! No one's said, "Whoa! Throw that bigoted snotrag out of the party. Not one. The northern county redneck vote is too important to them.

So I'd like to see Republicans who take exception to being lumped in with the bigots, misogynists and xenophobes take her hashtag away from her and Take Back Your Party. Do not treat Steve King as the respectable member from Iowa, but as a bigoted anomaly. Turn your backs on him when he speaks in the House, for instance. Go out and apologize to the Latino minority IN HIS DISTRICT (home of the Devin Nunes family dairy business, by the way). Do something that shows that you've got the gumption to stand up to the well-organized minority.

Or continue to be condemned as part of the problem - a large part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Problem a lot of people in the GOP who are not bigots are in denial,refusing to see what has happened to their party. They just do not want to deal with how far to the right their party has gone.
The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have aproblem and a lot of the GOPers here have real problems with taking that step.
 
dudalb said:
Problem a lot of people in the GOP who are not bigots are in denial,refusing to see what has happened to their party. They just do not want to deal with how far to the right their party has gone.
The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have aproblem and a lot of the GOPers here have real problems with taking that step.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that they're in denial, but when we started out this cycle it was possible to forgive at least some non-deplorables because folks in Whitebread, WY or Speedbump, ID may actually see so few BNITN(blacks not in the news) that they think all this talk of racism is just hyperbole, "cuz we don't have no racism here in Whitebread(Speedbump), why just look at that colored family that moved in the old Peterson place. They're accepted and have never been no trouble and we get along fine." The fact that they can't spot the inherent racism in their own comments is simply because they honestly don't think in those terms and truly believe they're not racist because the one or two percent minority population of their area seem to be treated like others. There are literally people who have no real exposures to minorities and really did think they'd come past "all that racism stuff" when the country elected a mostly black man as president. That the blowback from minority communities was an evil socialist plot by Dems was very believable to them.

But that was then. At this juncture, two years into the most racist administration since Hoover, with the revolving door or white supremacists/nationalists and xenophobes (Trump, Trump's Sons, Flynn, Bannon, Miller, Bolton, etc....).... There's no excuse for that myopia and it's willful denialism and covering up.

As I said, deep-sixing the bigot in Tarrant County is a no brainer. The biggest vote count in the county is Fort Worth. Fort Worth and the surrounding 'burbs vote for O'Rourke! It's not a redneck bigot area, but the Republicans are allowing the bigoted redneck minority to take center stage. Do not entertain her motion; throw her bigoted ass out of the party. I don't want to see Republicans from Houston or San Antonio reject her. I want to see her neighbors and local party members do so.

At this juncture, also, let's admit that the fiscal conservatives who still support Trump "because it's what we've got and at least he'll take care of the economy" are lying. He's done so little for the economy and so much to change the country's moral fiber that this is a convenient dodge. (Remember when the deficit and balanced budget used to matter? Newt now sits there with the rest of the greasy fan boys going "You tell 'em Donnie! More money for the rich guys, move it right over to the red ink column!")

I'm going after the low-hanging fruit, though. All of us have degrees of greed/avarice. It's pretty hard to pick yourself apart and figure out how much of that is enlightened self-interest and how much is mean old selfishness. But bigotry? Surely that's a low bar, Republicans.

> Spot the bigots.
> Drum them out of your party.
> If you fail; leave your party, not your principles.

How hard is that, really?
 
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Foolmewunz said:
> Spot the bigots.
> Drum them out of your party.
> If you fail; leave your party, not your principles.

How hard is that, really?
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False premise – you're assuming some kind of principles to be defining a party that has none other than oppose what those other people say.

Not just being flippant here. Romney's health care plan was the basis for the ACA. Clinton was the last one to deliver a budget surplus, etc. What ARE the core principles of the GOP? It's not deficit reduction or fiscal conservatism. It's not moral authority.
 
The Shrike said:
False premise – you're assuming some kind of principles to be defining a party that has none other than oppose what those other people say.

Not just being flippant here. Romney's health care plan was the basis for the ACA. Clinton was the last one to deliver a budget surplus, etc. What ARE the core principles of the GOP? It's not deficit reduction or fiscal conservatism. It's not moral authority.
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Cut taxes.

That's the whole plan, and the only plan
 
Foolmewunz said:
As I said, deep-sixing the bigot in Tarrant County is a no brainer. The biggest vote count in the county is Fort Worth. Fort Worth and the surrounding 'burbs vote for O'Rourke! It's not a redneck bigot area, but the Republicans are allowing the bigoted redneck minority to take center stage.
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Why only associate racism with rural environments? Why can't there be plenty of suburban racism driving the party as well?
 
Because the "hardy-har lookit the Southern racist rednecks" makes for an easier narrative then systematic racism.
 
carlitos said:
I realize that ahhell's post was hard to parse, but I re-read it a number of times and found it largely correct. I don't believe that anything in that post says that "both sides are equal." I see ahhell lamenting that forum members often use the worst posters as evidence for the toxicity, while if we look, we we can find examples of critical self-examination on both sides of the political aisle. As they put it: "reps/cons" criticizing King, and "Dems/libs" criticizing antifa.

Maybe have another look, and tell me if I'm reading that wrong.
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I agree.

That said, I often don't respond to the worst examples myself. I don't recall condemning Farrakhan, say, though I hate his antisemitism. I just don't think I need to, since he's not part of my camp.

To be sure, I aim for independence, not a party.

I do try to point out claims I disagree with when such claims come roughly from my side on this forum, but I miss many, since I have many posters on ignore and there are so many claims I disagree with that I can't bother to respond to all of them.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Why only associate racism with rural environments? Why can't there be plenty of suburban racism driving the party as well?
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None of Tarrant County is really rural. It's urban/suburban/exurban from what I know. I'm citing a local Tarrant County Republican who referred to the noisy minority as being from the northern reaches of the county.

But I actually never mentioned "rural". So your assumption about bigots in the burbs is correct, albeit inapplicable. A lot of the burbs that are turning against the Republicans' hate-filled message are the same areas that for years have been identified as likely Republican because they're largely White Flight territory. I assume also that the comment I read refers to places like Grapevine, a city of 50/60 thousand but with an abnormal distribution of white folks and non-spanish speaking folks (with "abnormal" merely referring to state averages). The comment I was springboarding off of referred to the motion filers as being from the "northern part of the county..." that'd be around Grapevine.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Because the "hardy-har lookit the Southern racist rednecks" makes for an easier narrative then systematic racism.
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I assume this isn't the first time you've responded to an incorrect assumption with an even more ludicrous comment. Try to rein in your yuks lest you become the object of the laughter.
 
Foolmewunz said:
None of Tarrant County is really rural. It's urban/suburban/exurban from what I know. I'm citing a local Tarrant County Republican who referred to the noisy minority as being from the northern reaches of the county.

But I actually never mentioned "rural". So your assumption about bigots in the burbs is correct, albeit inapplicable. A lot of the burbs that are turning against the Republicans' hate-filled message are the same areas that for years have been identified as likely Republican because they're largely White Flight territory. I assume also that the comment I read refers to places like Grapevine, a city of 50/60 thousand but with an abnormal distribution of white folks and non-spanish speaking folks (with "abnormal" merely referring to state averages). The comment I was springboarding off of referred to the motion filers as being from the "northern part of the county..." that'd be around Grapevine.
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"As I said, deep-sixing the bigot in Tarrant County is a no brainer. The biggest vote count in the county is Fort Worth. Fort Worth and the surrounding 'burbs vote for O'Rourke! It's not a redneck bigot area, but the Republicans are allowing the bigoted redneck minority to take center stage."

You are tying redneck vs burbs in your position to it seemed logical that you were tying rural vs suburban. Now sure there are a lot of suburban rednecks but of course programers also hit a lot of white supremacists too. In the nazi gatherings in portland they really get a lot of programer networking
 
ponderingturtle said:
"As I said, deep-sixing the bigot in Tarrant County is a no brainer. The biggest vote count in the county is Fort Worth. Fort Worth and the surrounding 'burbs vote for O'Rourke! It's not a redneck bigot area, but the Republicans are allowing the bigoted redneck minority to take center stage."

You are tying redneck vs burbs in your position to it seemed logical that you were tying rural vs suburban. Now sure there are a lot of suburban rednecks but of course programers also hit a lot of white supremacists too. In the nazi gatherings in portland they really get a lot of programer networking
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Yeah, probably bad choice of words on my part. The use of redneck was lazy.
 
Steve King removed from committee assignments following racist comments

(CNN) - Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa has been stripped of committee assignments following racist comments he made to The New York Times in a report published last week, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy announced Monday.

McCarthy announced that the House Republican Steering Committee -- which oversees committee assignments -- met Monday night and made a decision that King "will not be serving on committees in this Congress."

Earlier Monday, a pair of the Senate's most high-profile Republicans on Monday sharply condemned King, the highest ranking GOP officials to publicly rebuke King after comments he made to The New York Times that were sympathetic to white supremacists.
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CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/politics/mitch-mcconnell-steve-king-condemnation/index.html
 
Sad that the only reason they "punished" Steve King this time was because they lost the House. If they still controlled the House, they would ignore this.
 
Foolmewunz said:
@Brainster,
Yes, the start of the answer is for Republicans to reclaim the respect they claim we no longer give them and condemn the racists and bigots. Take back your party. Congresspersons, Senators and Governors (and local candidates) are so afraid of the well-organized TP-offshoot minority and getting "primaried" that they initially defended these reprobates as "everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with it". Then they ceded the local party to them in several states. Now, having created the monster that can devour them, they either push their policies and politics to that extreme side or they get out of the business.

Look at the disgraceful actions of the bigoted minority in Tarrant County in Texas. Rosey Redneck has started a #TakeBackOurParty meme and wants to railroad out a county leader,.... because he's Muslim. He's a Muslim Republican. He was nominated and appointed to his position by other Republicans. The only complaint against him is that he's a Muslim and thus can't be trusted. Seriously. And the "respectable" Republicans' reaction? Well, if this motion goes through, they'll probably leave the party! No one's said, "Whoa! Throw that bigoted snotrag out of the party. Not one. The northern county redneck vote is too important to them.

So I'd like to see Republicans who take exception to being lumped in with the bigots, misogynists and xenophobes take her hashtag away from her and Take Back Your Party. Do not treat Steve King as the respectable member from Iowa, but as a bigoted anomaly. Turn your backs on him when he speaks in the House, for instance. Go out and apologize to the Latino minority IN HIS DISTRICT (home of the Devin Nunes family dairy business, by the way). Do something that shows that you've got the gumption to stand up to the well-organized minority.

Or continue to be condemned as part of the problem - a large part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Well, I will certainly turn my back on him when he speaks in the House. That is, if I can figure out which way is facing away from him and when he is speaking.

That is my point. Your asking me to do those things to demonstrate my opposition to Steve King is like me asking you to stand up against Bob Menendez. You're not in Menendez's district and I'm not in King's. And yes, I know that the sin of racism (which is not a crime) is much worse than the crime of corruption. OTOH, Mendendez is a Senator, not a representative.
 
Brainster said:
Well, I will certainly turn my back on him when he speaks in the House. That is, if I can figure out which way is facing away from him and when he is speaking.

That is my point. Your asking me to do those things to demonstrate my opposition to Steve King is like me asking you to stand up against Bob Menendez. You're not in Menendez's district and I'm not in King's. And yes, I know that the sin of racism (which is not a crime) is much worse than the crime of corruption. OTOH, Mendendez is a Senator, not a representative.
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Have I missed some local news and you know longer self-identify as a Republican? The issue isn't solely King. It's the racists and reprobates. Forty-nine(49!!!) of them showed up to vote the scary Muslim out of his Party position.

Steve King addressing congress is an issue for Republican congresscritters. Taking back your party is an issue for all of you. When Menendez represents a faction that's taking control of my party, I'll speak up against him. Ditto the blue dog from West Virginia. But they don't. (And the next time the Democrats Abroad meet in Pattaya, I'll be sure to go and say something about them, just for the record.)
 
Brainster said:
Well, I will certainly turn my back on him when he speaks in the House. That is, if I can figure out which way is facing away from him and when he is speaking.

That is my point. Your asking me to do those things to demonstrate my opposition to Steve King is like me asking you to stand up against Bob Menendez. You're not in Menendez's district and I'm not in King's. And yes, I know that the sin of racism (which is not a crime) is much worse than the crime of corruption. OTOH, Mendendez is a Senator, not a representative.
Click to expand...

You don't have to minimize racism through sarcasm. In fact, doing so makes your arguments weaker.
 
Brainster said:
Well, I will certainly turn my back on him when he speaks in the House. That is, if I can figure out which way is facing away from him and when he is speaking.

That is my point. Your asking me to do those things to demonstrate my opposition to Steve King is like me asking you to stand up against Bob Menendez. You're not in Menendez's district and I'm not in King's. And yes, I know that the sin of racism (which is not a crime) is much worse than the crime of corruption. OTOH, Mendendez is a Senator, not a representative.
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Exactly the people of Iowa like his views that is why the keep electing him, so fighting for the rights of white supremacists is the best way to represent his district.

But people will call racists deplorable and those are truly the worst people.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Exactly the people of Iowa like his views that is why the keep electing him, so fighting for the rights of white supremacists is the best way to represent his district.

But people will call racists deplorable and those are truly the worst people.
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King barely won his district and if I'm not mistaken is the last Iowa GOP congressperson standing. Generally speaking none of the losers were quite as reprehensible as King and King barely won, so I wouldn't smear the entire state of Iowa with the accusation of liking his views.
 
Foolmewunz said:
King barely won his district and if I'm not mistaken is the last Iowa GOP congressperson standing. Generally speaking none of the losers were quite as reprehensible as King and King barely won, so I wouldn't smear the entire state of Iowa with the accusation of liking his views.
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Fine just his district. Being a white supremacist wasn't enough to make him lose the primary and people still voted for him, he clearly does represent the republican party of his district, he is their clear chosen representative.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Have I missed some local news and you know longer self-identify as a Republican? The issue isn't solely King. It's the racists and reprobates. Forty-nine(49!!!) of them showed up to vote the scary Muslim out of his Party position.

Steve King addressing congress is an issue for Republican congresscritters. Taking back your party is an issue for all of you. When Menendez represents a faction that's taking control of my party, I'll speak up against him. Ditto the blue dog from West Virginia. But they don't. (And the next time the Democrats Abroad meet in Pattaya, I'll be sure to go and say something about them, just for the record.)
Click to expand...

Also, there's a difference between crime and public political views.
 
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