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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 9th December 2018, 11:00 AM   #41
Skeptical Greg
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My point was not whether the guidelines were being followed, but rather that the guidelines are flawed, which I guess, doesn't really matter.





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Old 9th December 2018, 05:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
People sit on their asses all day, their kids are inside on computers instead of mowing lawns, riding bikes, or - standing up. I rarely see kids outside in my town, in fact it's close to never. Nobody riding bikes, playing catch...so sad.

People are lazy and love to make excuses and play the victim these days. You and your kids are fat because you choose not to address it properly and I feel that is true in 99.999% of cases.
At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.
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Old 10th December 2018, 09:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.
I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
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Old 10th December 2018, 03:52 PM   #44
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Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?


Quote:
The link between obesity and cancer risk is clear. Research shows that excess body fat increases your risk for several cancers, including colorectal, post-menopausal breast, endometrial, esophageal, kidney and pancreatic cancers.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?
I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:51 PM   #46
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Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.
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Old 10th December 2018, 07:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.
You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.
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Old 10th December 2018, 08:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.
Yep, and obesity is a result of lifestyle. Blaming it on genetics is just an excuse.

Although the research isn't as clear there is also a correlation between obesity and lowered IQ.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.
A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
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Old 11th December 2018, 01:31 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
Yes, there is no denying it.

In statistics, we have cross-sectional comparisons (like between states) and we have time series, which the thread addresses, the increase in obestity for every state over time.

Oftentimes the cross-sectional study reveals something that is changing over time generally, and I will advance that argument now.

It is not only true that Colorado is tops as a state, but across individuals within that state it is the outdoor nuts, the health conscious, the skiiers and hikers and bikers and skaters, etc. that are not obese.

A lot of those types self-select to Colorado for that reason, which explains the average difference by state pretty well. And over time you see the proportion of people doing a lot of active exercise and watching diets declining in Colorado too.

You have to work at being fit in an environment of leisure and plenty. So I am training as a cat burglar. I always wanted to be a second-story man. Grappling hooks, rapelling, and spider-man climbing. Name one cat burglar who was fat.

Ted Bundy got out of jail by fasting down below 100 pounds and squeezing through an air duct. So there are a lot of hobbies closed off to you when you are obese. The question is what motivates each individual. Because not everyone is motivated by the need to continue mass murder and cannibalism.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
Sure, agreed. I have no issue with any of that.

I was only taking issue with:
Quote:
So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup.
I may have misunderstood, but I thought you were saying that based on your anecdote you could conclude that you, as an individual, had both "cancer genes" and "obesity genes".

That conclusion isn't justified by the anecdote, though you should increase your estimation of the probability that you have those genes above the average in the general population based on what you know from your brothers.
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Old 11th December 2018, 06:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
Earlier you said:

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.
So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Earlier you said:



So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?
Not impossible, just much more difficult than for those of you who lost ten pounds easily, and say "I did it, why don't you?"
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:03 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The global obesity epidemic: Is dietary and animal fat the culprit?
Evidence based on 20 years of investigative journalism.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Neither ... nor, apparently:

Quote:
From a public health perspective, modern hunter-gatherers may be most remarkable for their relative lack of chronic diseases like heart disease, hypertension and cancer. Obesity rates are low. They have very high levels of cardiorespiratory fitness, even in old age. And Type 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction are hardly ever seen.
(…)
Deaths from accidents, gastrointestinal illness and acute infections are common. But those who survive to adulthood often reach old age relatively free from degenerative diseases that are the norm in industrialized nations. They are typically fit and active until the end, suggesting that there is something about their way of life that allows them to age healthfully.
Is there an optional diet for humans? (NYT, Dec. 18, 2018)
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:41 AM   #55
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Bill Maher strikes a blow for fat shaming:
New Rule: The Fudge Report | Real Time with Bill Maher (Sep. 7, 2019)

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I AGREE

Fortunately, his colleague James Corden strikes back:
James Corden Responds to Bill Maher's Fat Shaming Take (Sep. 13, 2019)

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I AGREE

I usually find Bill Maher quite sensible, but this attitude to obesity doesn't seem to be a new thing with him:
Bill Maher In Trouble For "Fat Shaming" Jokes (Aug. 23, 2017)

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I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:57 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Bill Maher strikes a blow for fat shaming:
New Rule: The Fudge Report | Real Time with Bill Maher (Sep. 7, 2019)

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I AGREE

Fortunately, his colleague James Corden strikes back:
James Corden Responds to Bill Maher's Fat Shaming Take (Sep. 13, 2019)

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I AGREE

I usually find Bill Maher quite sensible, but this attitude to obesity doesn't seem to be a new thing with him:
Bill Maher In Trouble For "Fat Shaming" Jokes (Aug. 23, 2017)

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I AGREE

I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically agree with every word Maher said in the first video. Spot on. I don't care one way or the other about Bill Maher but he's 100% correct.

This politically correct attitude about fat "shaming" is probably killing people. It sure isn't helping!

Great video, I'm glad you shared it.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:51 PM   #57
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I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86, but would just like to point out that whether or not "fat shaming" is a net negative or a net positive is an empirical question.

It's also worth pointing out that there may be both negative and positive ways to go about using peer pressure and other social factors to attempt to alter people's behaviour. Pointing and laughing at people probably doesn't help. Celebrating people for being overweight also probably doesn't help. Encouraging a healthy diet and exercise probably does help.

In China it's completely socially acceptable to make note of someone's physical changes. If you gain 5 pounds here, your friends will comment on it immediately. Similarly if you lose it. And people don't seem to take offence at those comments: they certainly aren't meant to offend, so in this cultural environment they aren't taken that way. When foreigners are offended, people usually find that very hard to understand.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:59 PM   #58
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I would rather have some "letting your health go" shaming - which isn't necessarily related to weight.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86, but would just like to point out that whether or not "fat shaming" is a net negative or a net positive is an empirical question.
But, but, but, it makes fat people cry.

We even have a "fat studies" section at an actual university. Predictably, the professor is gigantically fat and American.

Name Cat Pause.

Not kidding.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:51 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This politically correct attitude about fat "shaming" is probably killing people. It sure isn't helping!

Fat, i.e. too much of it, kills people. What makes you think that a "politically correct attitude about fat "shaming"" kills them? And why do you use "" when you write "shaming"?

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86
(...)
Pointing and laughing at people probably doesn't help.

If you think so - and I certainly do! - you can't possibly agree with mgidm86.

Quote:
Celebrating people for being overweight also probably doesn't help.

Apart from a very small minority of the so-called feeders, nobody celebrates "people for being overweight." Being overweight and saying that you are not ashamed about it and that you are quite happy with the way you are is not a celebration. It's acceptance. And people can live perfectly happy lives without living up to the ideal BMI. In particular, if they still exercise.

Quote:
If you gain 5 pounds here, your friends will comment on it immediately. Similarly if you lose it.
5 pounds? Really? Or is it hyperbole? Maybe it's me, but unless it's 10-15 kilos, I don't even notice.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would rather have some "letting your health go" shaming - which isn't necessarily related to weight.

But why shaming? Letting one's health go is usually the consequence of something else. The ruined health is the 'punishment' for that. A very long time ago when I was a conscientious objector, I worked at an institution for people with substance abuse. I witnessed several conversations that the substance abusers had with social workers, but the only one who occasionally seemed to get through to them was an MD, Peter Ege, and the reason was that he never moralized. He refrained from shaming drug addicts and alcoholics and stuck with telling them about the state of their health and what would happen to them if they didn't stop taking drugs or drinking.
I can't see why overweight people would be very different in this respect.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
But, but, but, it makes fat people cry.

For some reason, you, mgidm86 and Bill Maher seem to think that shaming fat people and making them cry will help them lose weight. Do you have any statistics to indicate that this is true?

Quote:
We even have a "fat studies" section at an actual university. Predictably, the professor is gigantically fat and American.

No, that is not at all predictable. If you watch a video from a fat studies conference, people seem to be all shapes and sizes: Fat studies conference challenges supersize stereotypes (Daily Motion, 2012)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 14th September 2019 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:28 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If you think so - and I certainly do! - you can't possibly agree with mgidm86.
I think he and I probably disagree about the right approach to encouraging people who are overweight to lose it. I've told friends that I think they need to lose weight, but I certainly tried to be as kind about it as possible, and wouldn't laugh about it or insult someone. Generally though I wouldn't really say anything, but if they mention wanting to lose weight themselves I'll support the idea rather than saying something like "Oh, you're not overweight!" which is often the first response that I want to say.




Quote:
Apart from a very small minority of the so-called feeders, nobody celebrates "people for being overweight." Being overweight and saying that you are not ashamed about it and that you are quite happy with the way you are is not a celebration. It's acceptance. And people can live perfectly happy lives without living up to the ideal BMI. In particular, if they still exercise.
Well, BMI is a flawed metric, but there is healthy and unhealthy. I think in general people who are unhealthily overweight both would benefit from losing the weight and can lose it by taking the right course of action. Of course, sometimes people's life circumstances make that difficult (that's been true for my sister, so I never commented on her weight or diet, but I did try to convince her to changing her living situation), but in that case changing those circumstances is the first step.

These things are also at varying degrees of severity. For most people who are overweight I wouldn't say I think, even if they are friends, because they're not that overweight. But I do think it's not great when they promulgate the idea that being overweight is just different and not actually unhealthy.



Quote:
5 pounds? Really? Or is it hyperbole? Maybe it's me, but unless it's 10-15 kilos, I don't even notice.
I'm pretty small, my weight is pretty steady at around 70kg. And the women I'm around are slim Chinese women who are generally less than 50kg so five pounds shows. And, yeah, when they notice a change, they will say so immediately. Sometimes if I don't work out that much and just lose a little tone they'll mention it "You're getting fat" in a totally matter of fact way (even though I haven't actually gained any weight).
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:18 AM   #62
The Don
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In China it's completely socially acceptable to make note of someone's physical changes. If you gain 5 pounds here, your friends will comment on it immediately. Similarly if you lose it. And people don't seem to take offence at those comments: they certainly aren't meant to offend, so in this cultural environment they aren't taken that way. When foreigners are offended, people usually find that very hard to understand.
That puts a neighbour from Taiwan's behaviour into more context. She weighs her (British) husband every morning and chides him in public for "being so fat". He isn't particularly fat, and does quite a lot of walking, but he's in his early 50's, has a sedentary job and his primary hobby is making model railways so he's not a skinny-as-a-racing-snake ultra endurance athlete either.

I was impressed at spin this morning. There are four spin classes each week at the gym that Mrs Don and I are members of. Most of the participants are keen gym bunnies and/or cyclists but there are also a few who turn up who are towards the beginning of their weight loss and/or fitness improvement journey.

There was a new class member today who was perhaps the largest person I have ever seen on a spin bike. I would imagine that it was a big deal for her to come along, especially given the shape of most of the participants, and that as regular attendees we all knew each other as well. Encouragement vs patronisation is a tricky balance to find IMO but I hope that she found that the class were doing the former and becomes a regular attendee.

Another of the regulars, and a particular friend of Mrs Don, has lost more than 30kg this year through a combination of diet and exercise. I hope that the "new girl" finds support and motivation.

OTOH I've been told repeatedly over the last two years that I should put on weight. Depending on state of training, I'm in the 72-77 kg range which at 1.87 means my BMI is in the middle of the normal range. "Thin shaming", especially of middle aged men, seems culturally perfectly acceptable
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:24 AM   #63
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This company is reversing type 2 diabetes with the ketogenic diet. This page has a graphical summary of improvements followed by links to the research:

https://www.virtahealth.com/research

We should contact them and let them know it's all about CICO and that the ratios of carbohydrate, protein and fat do not matter.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
For some reason, you, mgidm86 and Bill Maher seem to think that shaming fat people and making them cry will help them lose weight. Do you have any statistics to indicate that this is true?
Nope. In fact, I think whatever little science there is on the subject says the opposite - fat people are like Trump supporters: they'd do things that self harm.

Big deal. Fat people are an immense drain on medical resources, and in my part of the world, that deducts money from people who have no choice in their medical condition, so I couldn't really give a toss what happens.

Plus, there is no question it has pushed some people in the right direction.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, that is not at all predictable. If you watch a video from a fat studies conference, people seem to be all shapes and sizes:
The fat pig pushing the fat studies course is very pro-fat and proudly celebrates her size.

I find that highly predictable.

Who attends the course is irrelevant - there are apparently male feminists as well.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:08 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nope. In fact, I think whatever little science there is on the subject says the opposite - fat people are like Trump supporters: they'd do things that self harm.

Evidence?! Could we get to see your whatever little science there is?!

Quote:
Big deal. Fat people are an immense drain on medical resources, and in my part of the world, that deducts money from people who have no choice in their medical condition, so I couldn't really give a toss what happens.

Plus, there is no question it has pushed some people in the right direction.

Well, that is certainly convincing. If there is no question about it, then I guess it must have been proved and confirmed a long time ago, so could we see your science?!
The only scientist I could find is this one, but she makes it clear that one obese person claims to have been pushed "in the right direction" by fat shaming.
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Quote:
The fat pig pushing the fat studies course is very pro-fat and proudly celebrates her size.

What makes the obese woman pushing the fat studies course a pig? And what makes her pro-fat? Let me venture a guess: That she speaks out against fat shaming?!

Quote:
I find that highly predictable.

At this point, I find your post highly predictable.

Quote:
Who attends the course is irrelevant - there are apparently male feminists as well.

What does male/female have to do with this? And what does feminism have to do with this?
Is your post just a Cain-style attempt to emulate Al Bundy?
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Old 15th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TruthJonsen View Post
This company is reversing type 2 diabetes with the ketogenic diet. This page has a graphical summary of improvements followed by links to the research:

https://www.virtahealth.com/research

We should contact them and let them know it's all about CICO and that the ratios of carbohydrate, protein and fat do not matter.
There are essential fats and there are essential proteins ( amino acids ), there are no essential carbohydrates..

It's amazing how the right amounts of the first two, and none of the last one will normalize your health..
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Evidence?! Could we get to see your whatever little science there is?!
You want me to show the science that fat shaming isn't ideal for most fat people?

Read what I typed, not what you think I typed. Studies show that fat-shaming is likely to lead to more weight gain. ergo: those people are self-harming.

Or, you could disagree that obesity is a health hazard.

[quote=dann;12820845]Well, that is certainly convincing. If there is no question about it, then I guess it must have been proved and confirmed a long time ago, so could we see your science?!

No science needed - again, you're not reading.

There is no question fat-shaming works with some people.

1, 2, 3. Let me know if you need more - plenty of them around.

Are you a little obese?

I ask because like James Cordon, it's usually fat people who push back against fat-shaming. I'm deeply reminded of an acrimonious exchange with Orphia Nay on the subject, and lo and behold, a couple of years later she's proudly talking about how many people watched her weight-loss.

Does it work, or does it just take a while to sink in?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
What makes the obese woman pushing the fat studies course a pig?
Did you look at the pics? She's a pig.

Fat chicks can look ok if they want to - my girl Lizzo is a classic example. Being fat isn't necessarily aesthetically revolting, but Cat Pause is.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And what makes her pro-fat? Let me venture a guess: That she speaks out against fat shaming?!
No, she revels in her blubber and wants people to call it normal.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
At this point, I find your post highly predictable.
These discussions almost always are: fat people on one side, not fat people on the other.

Go figure...

Originally Posted by dann View Post
What does male/female have to do with this? And what does feminism have to do with this?
Feminism doesn't have anything to do with it. I mistakenly assumed you might understand a metaphor.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:09 PM   #68
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It's interesting how the " fat shaming " debate, shifts the problem from health to " Wahhhh..... You hurt my feelings...."
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It's interesting how the " fat shaming " debate, shifts the problem from health to " Wahhhh..... You hurt my feelings...."
The problem is, even doctors telling patients they're obese is seen as fat-shaming.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You want me to show the science that fat shaming isn't ideal for most fat people?

Read what I typed, not what you think I typed. Studies show that fat-shaming is likely to lead to more weight gain. ergo: those people are self-harming.

Your claim was that "whatever little science there is on the subject says the opposite," I asked you to present us with the science and you've given us nothing at all.

Quote:
Or, you could disagree that obesity is a health hazard.

No, I could not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, that is certainly convincing. If there is no question about it, then I guess it must have been proved and confirmed a long time ago, so could we see your science?!
No science needed - again, you're not reading.

So again it's a, no, you have no science to offer us.

Quote:
There is no question fat-shaming works with some people.

1, 2, 3. Let me know if you need more - plenty of them around.

So the problem is that you don't understand how "no question" works: You actually think that if somebody claims that they lost weight because they were fat shamed, then it must be true, i.e. "There is no question fat-shaming works."
Apparently, even the multitude of guaranteed-to-work-weight-loss diets out there can't convince you otherwise.

Quote:
Are you a little obese?

No, not even slightly overweight, and I've never been. Do you have any relevant questions?

Quote:
I ask because like James Cordon, it's usually fat people who push back against fat-shaming. I'm deeply reminded of an acrimonious exchange with Orphia Nay on the subject, and lo and behold, a couple of years later she's proudly talking about how many people watched her weight-loss.

So you ask because one overweight TV host, who is very open about his weight and his problems with losing weight, objects to Bill Maher's recommendation of fat shaming, and because a poster at the JREF/ISF who disagreed with you (about this question, I assume) turned out to be overweight.
Yes, those two people would certainly make anybody think that "it's usually fat people who push back against fat-shaming."
And when I now ask you for proof that "it's usually fat people who push back against fat-shaming," I don't seriously expect you to be able to deliver any.

Quote:
Does it work, or does it just take a while to sink in?

It sinks in that you appear to have nothing at all to back up any of your claims.

Quote:
Did you look at the pics? She's a pig.

Oh, I can see that you have a problem with language: No, she's not a pig, she's actually a human being. You can call her obese or fat, whatever, but she's obviously not a pig, and there's no reason to call her a pig.

Quote:
Fat chicks can look ok if they want to - my girl Lizzo is a classic example. Being fat isn't necessarily aesthetically revolting, but Cat Pause is.

I don't really care if you find all obese women or just some of them "aesthetically revolting." Why do you think that we need to know that? What relevance do you think it has?

Quote:
No, she revels in her blubber and wants people to call it normal.

Whatever. I guess you (and Bill Maher) think that your diatribes will help her lose weight.

Quote:
These discussions almost always are: fat people on one side, not fat people on the other.

Go figure...

You remind me of the guy whose objection to my criticism of people who think that the unemployed are unemployed because they're lazy was to assume that I was unemployed. Another thing that I've never been. And you've now gone from "usually" to "almost always" and so far not a single piece of evidence for anything at all.
And it's not even an argument. It's just your way of dismissing any argument that a sensible guy like James Corden might have since there's no reason to consider the arguments of fat people because they're fat!

Quote:
Feminism doesn't have anything to do with it. I mistakenly assumed you might understand a metaphor.

Understanding metaphors has been an important part of my education and my job for 35 years. That you obviously don't is a pity.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The problem is, even doctors telling patients they're obese is seen as fat-shaming.

Evidence? I've never heard about this alleged phenomenon, and based on what I can see on the internet, doctors telling their obese patients that they are obese are seen as doctors who are concerned about their patients' health. But then again, I've also never heard doctors refer to their patients as pigs or as aesthetically revolting.
I know this guy personally. He's one of the world's most respected nutrition scientists, he's on our list of people that journalists can turn to if they want to contact somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, and he has helped us out a couple of times when we have written articles related to the theme of nutrition:

Quote:
Ja, jeg tilbyder en gratis test i vores kalorimetre, hvor man får mulighed for at vise at man ikke er i en negativ energi- og fedtbalance, alt i vores 3-stjernede faciliteter på NEXS på Frederiksberg:
Arne Astrup,
Institutleder, professor, dr.med.
Institut for Idræt og Ernæring,
Det Natur- og Biovidenskabelige Fakultet, Københavns Universitet.
Leve af lys-kulten - anno 2015 (Dansk Skeptica, Sep. 24, 2015)

Neither he nor his colleagues would dream of fat shaming anybody. (And they are usually quite slim.)
You are the problem. MDs aren't. At all!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Your claim was that "whatever little science there is on the subject says the opposite," I asked you to present us with the science and you've given us nothing at all.
I think you misunderstood him. I'm pretty sure he was saying that the science agrees with you that fat shaming doesn't work.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:33 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Your claim was that "whatever little science there is on the subject says the opposite," I asked you to present us with the science and you've given us nothing at all.
Since you're determined to emphasise your inability to understand plain English, here you go: (Harvard ok by you?)

Originally Posted by dann View Post
So the problem is that you don't understand how "no question" works: You actually think that if somebody claims that they lost weight because they were fat shamed, then it must be true, i.e. "There is no question fat-shaming works."
And there's the final proof you are not reading.

Christ's sake, I even italicised and bolded it for you.

It works in some cases. I gave examples.

What more could you possibly want?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, not even slightly overweight, and I've never been.
That was the point of my metaphor about males who claim to be feminists.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
...and because a poster at the JREF/ISF who disagreed with you (about this question, I assume) turned out to be overweight.
Further emphasising your complete lack of comprehension - I stated that she lost an enormous amount of weight, so she was obviously obese to start with: there is no assumption required.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Oh, I can see that you have a problem with language: No, she's not a pig, she's actually a human being. You can call her obese or fat, whatever, but she's obviously not a pig, and there's no reason to call her a pig.
Damn right, it's a poor metaphor. Very unfair to pigs, who aren't usually grossly obese.

How about "disgustingly and clinically severely obese, unattractive, American, alleged female, with an idiotic name promoting an scientifically-known enormously unhealthy and costly lifestyle."

Much quicker to just type pig.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't really care if you find all obese women or just some of them "aesthetically revolting." Why do you think that we need to know that? What relevance do you think it has?
You asked why she was a pig. In Antipodean colloquial terms, a deeply unattractive person is often known as a pig.

The relevance is she's like a fundy christian - trying to validate her idioitic views by entrapping others into her dangerous lifetsyle.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And it's not even an argument. It's just your way of dismissing any argument that a sensible guy like James Corden might have since there's no reason to consider the arguments of fat people because they're fat!
Yep, in exactly the same way I don't consider the arguments of cigarette companies - both are promoting unhealthy behaviour. James Corden, as far as I'm aware, is an entertainer.

What makes him:

A - sensible?
B - worth listening to?

I know nothing about him other than he's on TV occasionally, promotes some appallingly bad TV programs and is fat. None of those make him worth listening to, but he may be a dietician, diabetes expert or coronary specialist as well - do enlighten.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Understanding metaphors has been an important part of my education and my job for 35 years. That you obviously don't is a pity.
I feel the need for a laughing emoticon, because you've proved beyond any shadow that you can't read clear, concise, bolded and italicised English, let alone metaphors.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think you misunderstood him. I'm pretty sure he was saying that the science agrees with you that fat shaming doesn't work.
I would still like to see him present the science he refers to - whatever it might say.
So far, we've seen nothing.

ETA: OK, in the meantime, he's actually delivered: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazin...the-scarlet-f/
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 16th September 2019, 02:37 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think you misunderstood him. I'm pretty sure he was saying that the science agrees with you that fat shaming doesn't work.
Misunderstood? Completely misread is how I put it.

But damn, you spoilt the joke, which is on Dann.

If you got it, an expert with 35 years' experience of understanding metaphors should have nailed it a page ago.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:41 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Since you're determined to emphasise your inability to understand plain English, here you go: (Harvard ok by you?)

And there's the final proof you are not reading.

Christ's sake, I even italicised and bolded it for you.

It works in some cases. I gave examples.

What more could you possibly want?

That was the point of my metaphor about males who claim to be feminists.

Further emphasising your complete lack of comprehension - I stated that she lost an enormous amount of weight, so she was obviously obese to start with: there is no assumption required.

Damn right, it's a poor metaphor. Very unfair to pigs, who aren't usually grossly obese.

How about "disgustingly and clinically severely obese, unattractive, American, alleged female, with an idiotic name promoting an scientifically-known enormously unhealthy and costly lifestyle."

Much quicker to just type pig.

You asked why she was a pig. In Antipodean colloquial terms, a deeply unattractive person is often known as a pig.

The relevance is she's like a fundy christian - trying to validate her idioitic views by entrapping others into her dangerous lifetsyle.

Yep, in exactly the same way I don't consider the arguments of cigarette companies - both are promoting unhealthy behaviour. James Corden, as far as I'm aware, is an entertainer.

What makes him:

A - sensible?
B - worth listening to?

I know nothing about him other than he's on TV occasionally, promotes some appallingly bad TV programs and is fat. None of those make him worth listening to, but he may be a dietician, diabetes expert or coronary specialist as well - do enlighten.

I feel the need for a laughing emoticon, because you've proved beyond any shadow that you can't read clear, concise, bolded and italicised English, let alone metaphors.

Some posts are just so prejudiced and ignorant that they aren't worth responding to.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:54 AM   #77
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I offer the following rebuttals:

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Old 19th September 2019, 01:35 PM   #78
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Naughty!
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:26 PM   #79
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According to the latest research, being in the overweight BMI range (25-29) increases ones mortality risk by a factor of 1.1.

You know what else increases your mortality risk by a factor of 1.1? Being one year older, if you're older than about 30.

In the lowest "obesity" range, BMI 30-34, the risk factor is 1.5. That's equivalent to being about four years older. Worth thinking about, but it's far from "OMG you're likely to drop dead at any moment." If your BMI is 33 and you have a lean sibling five years older, it's better than 50-50 you'll outlive them.

The risk goes sharply up from there, which is why the next category of obese (BMI 35-39) used to be called "morbidly obese." "Morbidly" here doesn't mean "you're dying of it right now," though, it means (in the medical jargon the phrase originated in) a likely cause of ill health. That, like smoking or a high-stress job, is likely in the long term to take the proverbial ten years off your life.

If the motivation for fat shaming was to encourage people to be healthier, we would see in daily life a lot of shaming of the enormous (morbidly obese or worse) people who ride through stores on scooters, but almost no mention of the build of the young woman with a curvy figure or the 30-something guy with a beer gut, who are only in the "overweight" category with minimal risk to health. What we actually experience is pretty much the reverse. (The 350-pound person on the scooter is disabled and may have an underlying medical condition, so no punching down please; while the overweight and just-obese folks hear about it on almost a daily basis.)

I suspect the reason for this is because while detriments to health don't accumulate much until the higher BMI tiers, significant detriments to conventional physical attractiveness start from being just a little too heavy (even when still within the officially "healthy" BMI range). And physical attractiveness rules interpersonal judgments of character, as study after study has shown. If you would date someone a couple years older, but wouldn't date someone with a BMI five points higher, and you claim that's because of health concerns, you're either fooling yourself or being hypocritical.

That's not to say that the current state of things in the U.S. and much of the world isn't alarming. Every few years I look at the new statistics and think, "okay, it's even worse than before, but it's gotten about as bad as it can get and the pendulum is sure to swing the other way." So far, nope.

But so many anti-overweight measures (diet food products, food pyramids, medical initiatives, fat shaming, the whole weight loss industry) have proven to be ineffective if not outright counterproductive.

We don't have trouble putting a lot of the blame for the opioid epidemic on the pharmaceutical industry that pushed prescription opioids. But year after year we completely disregard the fact that if you turn on a television on any channel between 6 and 8 PM, you're guaranteed to see an ad showing melted cheese being drizzled over some salty fried treat in slow motion. Or something similar.

Yeah, sure, we're all supposed to disregard all that and eat healthy anyhow. But there's no evidence that evolution, education, or culture has actually given most people the ability to do that.
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Old 20th September 2019, 09:32 AM   #80
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,451
In post 71, I made a reference to Arne Astrup, Head of Department of Nutrition, Exercise and Sports, University of Copenhagen. In a recent (Sep. 18) facebook post he writes:

Quote:
Blaming overweight people for "lacking willpower and telling them to shut up" shows that you don't understand how biologically complex the condition of being overweight is - the interaction between genes, the bacteria in your gut, your metabolism, appetite and diet, and a number of other factors. "Fat shaming" is absolutely insane, stigmatizing and discriminatory. I distance myself from it in the most profound way.
Arne Astrup on Facebook
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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