2018/2019 US Federal Government Shutdown

mgidm86 said:
Save a little face for whom? Who in the world will say, "Hey everyone maybe Trump's not so bad after all" if he gives in on anything? His base? The Democrats? The media? No.
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The media falls over themselves to find reasons to call him "presidential" or to say, yet again, that he has "pivoted".

And establishment Dems are desperate to have sort of a return to "normalcy". They want "the system" to work so badly.
 
I truly think that Trump would have a much easier time dealing with Dems than with McConnell: they will let him have all kinds of vanity projects in return for substantive migration, healthcare, labor and tax reform.
 
Hell, they won't even need to pay anything. Just show up weekly and tell him how smart and handsome he is.
 
mgidm86 said:
Save a little face for whom? Who in the world will say, "Hey everyone maybe Trump's not so bad after all" if he gives in on anything? His base? The Democrats? The media? No.
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Face for him. This all about Trump's narcissistic and fragile ego. More than anything, he doesn't want to appear weak. But even he has to see that he looks like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum to the majority of Americans.

A million people that work for the government will not receive a paycheck in a week. Secret Service is not getting paid. TSA is not getting paid. This brinkmanship tactic is not good.
 
acbytesla said:
A million people that work for the government will not receive a paycheck in a week. Secret Service is not getting paid. TSA is not getting paid. This brinkmanship tactic is not good.
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Trump has taken it over the brink by not dealing. He will find it hard to get back now beyond taking a fall.

Also, I'm pretty sure he is simply not canny enough personally to work tactics like this. He has been just wise enough to have "advisors". In the past, it was his dad's clever-clogs accountants who dreamed up the schemes of ripping off everyone legally (OK, semi-legally). More recently, it has been a team of staff whispering in his ear - Bannon, Miller, etc. Given Trump's day-to-day problems with speaking rationally (!!), his public failures to elucidate the issues properly, and even the incapacity to write tweets in even semi-sensible English, I doubt seriously he can figure out these complex high-level legal maneuvers himself. This whole episode is all someone else's idea. I'm guessing it's Miller. He's that sort of prick.
 
acbytesla said:
Face for him. This all about Trump's narcissistic and fragile ego. More than anything, he doesn't want to appear weak. But even he has to see that he looks like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum to the majority of Americans. A million people that work for the government will not receive a paycheck in a week. Secret Service is not getting paid. TSA is not getting paid. This brinkmanship tactic is not good.
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No, he doesn't. And that's the problem. His narcissism makes it impossible for him to see himself as anything other than right. That's why he is so intractable.
 
Stacyhs said:
No, he doesn't. And that's the problem. His narcissism makes it impossible for him to see himself as anything other than right. That's why he is so intractable.
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Yea, but pretty soon those unpaid Secret Service Agents will be pointing those Sigs at him.
 
Segnosaur said:
Here's a question...

With the shutdown, many workers are furloughed and/or working without pay. Now, since they're laid off they still officially have a job.

What if the shutdown lasts longer and an employee decides to quit so they can find a better job. Is there anything they can do to obtain severance pay? Has anyone ever tried?
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No such thing as severance pay for federal employees.

I've thought about it a bit. I can't quit because I'd have to log in to quit and logging in is technically illegal. Also, there is nobody there to process it, so yeah.

So what I would do is take a day off my new job when the government returns, quit my government job, and get my backpay. I'm not sure how legal that would be, or even ethical, but that would be my plan. After all I didn't quit my government job until they let me.
 
An increase in vandalism has been reported in at least one National Park, Joshua Tree, including trees being damaged and possibly felled in order to create new "roads" in the park.

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

It may not be possible to say definitively the shutdown is the reason for the destruction here, but a reduction in the security provision in areas of natural beauty and/or species are endangered where deliberate damage already occurs can hardly be of benefit.
 
commandlinegamer said:
An increase in vandalism has been reported in at least one National Park, Joshua Tree, including trees being damaged and possibly felled in order to create new "roads" in the park.

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

It may not be possible to say definitively the shutdown is the reason for the destruction here, but a reduction in the security provision in areas of natural beauty and/or species are endangered where deliberate damage already occurs can hardly be of benefit.
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Trump doesn't go there so he doesn't give a ****.
 
commandlinegamer said:
An increase in vandalism has been reported in at least one National Park, Joshua Tree, including trees being damaged and possibly felled in order to create new "roads" in the park.

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

It may not be possible to say definitively the shutdown is the reason for the destruction here, but a reduction in the security provision in areas of natural beauty and/or species are endangered where deliberate damage already occurs can hardly be of benefit.
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Is it Happy Hour? Have a nice shot of your favorite libation and read the comments. Trumpettes are outnumbered but damned if they don't show up anywhere, making up "facts" the way their leader does.
 
JoeMorgue said:
The House passes (with all House Democrats and 8 House Republicans voting for) a bill that would restore funding to key government financial services; most notably the IRS and Treasury Department. The White House is expected to veto it.
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Foolmewunz said:
Will he even see it. No way it gets past the turtle.
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Called it!
 
Foolmewunz said:
Called it!
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I'm pretty sure the Dems knew it would get stalled outside the turtle-shell. In fact, depended on it. Because they can then point to the increasing pile of legislation that would end the shutdown and say it is all McConnell's fault, not ours, that this isn't progressing. Doesn't matter what he says about "not passing anything Trump won't sign". The ball is firmly back with McConnell.
 
It's a kind of ursurping of power for McConnell to assume what Trump would and wouldn't sign - it's his job to send legislation to the White House, and it's arrogant for him to presume to know the President's mind.
As I mentioned, this is most likely deliberate sabotage of Trump by Mitch.
 
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acbytesla said:
Face for him. This all about Trump's narcissistic and fragile ego. More than anything, he doesn't want to appear weak. But even he has to see that he looks like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum to the majority of Americans.

A million people that work for the government will not receive a paycheck in a week. Secret Service is not getting paid. TSA is not getting paid. This brinkmanship tactic is not good.
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Well, I guess the president has an inkling of a belief that this brinkmanship tactic is not good. After all he tried to get people to call it a strike instead of a shutdown. But he really doesn’t have the disposition and personality to do anything except repeat his demands while making up new lies to support his case; so the shutdown will continue.
 
From WaPo:
Before lawmakers left Washington Friday, House Minority Whip Steve Scalise (R-La.) attempted to make a similar point as Trump did Saturday about the 2016 election in a floor exchange with Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.).

“He was elected by the American people as president to carry out border security and build a wall,” Scalise said. “It was part of the national debate. I know some people on your side don’t even want to recognize that that election occurred and the result. But it happened.”

Replied Hoyer, “Oh no, I think there was an election, and he did raise that question. And as I recall, that’s why I’m the majority leader and you’re the minority whip.”
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:clap: Hoyer seriously nailed Scalise's ass.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It's a kind of ursurping of power for McConnell to assume what Trump would and wouldn't sign - it's his job to send legislation to the White House, and it's arrogant for him to presume to know the President's mind.
As I mentioned, this is most likely deliberate sabotage of Trump by Mitch.
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I don't think the word "arrogant" is appropriate, stupid is the word I'd have used.
 
Is there some kind of time limit on how long a shut-down can continue?

Can a President be removed from office for failing to fulfil his oath?
Trump said:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
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Is he faithfully executing the Office of President if he refuses to maintain basic government services?

He has shut down the government to further his personal political agenda. That doesn't look like someone faithfully executing the office of President to me.

Maybe he is preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution to the best of his abilities. I'm no expert on the US Constitution, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lawyer could find multiple examples of Trump breaching this part of the oath.

Is "Breach of Oath" still a thing?
 
Craig4 said:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/nyt-russia-trump-investigation/index.html

It seems entirely clear now that the shutdown has nothing to do with the wall. This is yet another attempt to distract from the now several Russia investigations. Only problem is that the stories are getting bigger than the shutdown story.
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From the article;

FBI agents and senior officials began to suspect connections between Trump and Russia during the 2016 campaign but pushed off an investigation partially because they were unsure how to execute such a massive and sensitive operation, sources told the Times.

But when Trump then tied Comey's firing to the Russia investigation two separate times, the FBI opened the probe, the people said to the Times.
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Unsurprisingly, it was Trump's own mouth that got him.
 
Brainache said:
Is there some kind of time limit on how long a shut-down can continue?
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The time limit is how long it takes the GOP ( which, keep in mind, is now the Trump Party) to quit walking in lockstep with him.

Can a President be removed from office for failing to fulfil his oath?

<snip>

Is "Breach of Oath" still a thing?
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Same answer. Congress can impeach and convict him on pretty much any grounds they want to. There is no schedule of impeachable offenses.

But the GOP isn't going to let that happen, and they control the Senate, which does the trial and convicting part of the process.
 
quadraginta said:
The time limit is how long it takes the GOP ( which, keep in mind, is now the Trump Party) to quit walking in lockstep with him.




Same answer. Congress can impeach and convict him on pretty much any grounds they want to. There is no schedule of impeachable offenses.

But the GOP isn't going to let that happen, and they control the Senate, which does the trial and convicting part of the process.
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Thanks for that.

I still think that it's odd for the President to swear an oath of office if there is no penalty for breaching that oath.

I suppose people could argue that the oath has not been breached, but if it has could a President be charged with perjury, or something? Lying under oath? Dereliction of duty? Reckless endangerment? Criminal negligence?

Square-dancing in a round house???
 
Brainache said:
I still think that it's odd for the President to swear an oath of office if there is no penalty for breaching that oath.
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Separation of powers. Who would get to decide when the oath was breached? FBI? Every Federal law enforcement agency is under the executive branch, headed by the president. The only real enforcement action that can be undertook would be impeachment. So we are back to where we are at now.
 
Mitch won't cave, since he wants Trump to crash and burn in the eyes of Americans whilst Republicans look like nothing more than "too loyal to the President" but get little direct blame.
Only if Trump signals an end to the shutdown will he do something.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Mitch won't cave, since he wants Trump to crash and burn in the eyes of Americans whilst Republicans look like nothing more than "too loyal to the President" but get little direct blame.
Only if Trump signals an end to the shutdown will he do something.
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Mitch's party might step in and tell him to extract digit before he crashes the GOP with Trump at the controls. Most thinking Americans can see that Trump is out of control now. And Mitch pandering to the lunatic's childish whims is hardly a "good look" for the GOP.
 
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Norman Alexander said:
Mitch's party might step in and tell him to extract digit before he crashes the GOP with Trump at the controls. Most thinking Americans can see that Trump is out of control now. And Mitch pandering to the lunatic's childish whims is hardly a "good look" for the GOP.
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Well, Mitch would have to have a two falls out of three deathmatch to move to the sensible ground. Ol' Lindsay is at it again, suggesting that Donnie Johnny agree to open a few departments for a week to ease some of the Trump created hardships. He'll be back having lunch with Trump and kissing his ass again real soon but they are starting to read the polls and Trump's hold over his key demographic is now slipping.....

Every education category now rates higher as "Disapprove". The overall "Non-College Grad" now disapproves Trump by 15 points. Even taking out those pesky darker-hued individuals, White Non-College Grads" now show a minus two. Those same demographics are both harsher on him and go easier on him, respectively, as to the responsibility for the shutdown. Overall non grads say "Trump Is" by 18 points but white non-grads say it's the Dems in Congress by six points.

I still predict the polls will be the impetus to reopen the government. I'm still not betting on whether it will be by fiat caused by the made-up Emergency/Crisis or if it will be some little victory he can claim while caving on everything else.
 
I think its a shame that you guys can't just dissolve the government and hold a snap election, like they do in civilised countries...
 
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