2018/2019 US Federal Government Shutdown

My point is not about Clinton. I voted for her. My point is about how the Democratic Party seems to be, at times, their own worst enemy. The 2016 campaign season was just the most recent example on a national level.
acbytesla said:
With all due respect Elvis. I don't know what that means. Maybe you can expand on that?
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Sam Harris has been talking about this. He is suggesting the left have gone a bit insane with identity politics, safe spaces and shouting down anyone who has an issue with open borders or plastering the racist label over the mouths of anyone who has an issue with some some particular religious dogmas. They appear to be shutting down free speech. It seems offending someone with an idea is now a crime. Don't misjudge me, I am left of center myself. But I keep hearing people bang on about deep state and big pharma on the left with no or little critical thinking being employed.

"All we have is conversation" Sam Harris.
 
Compared to the proto-facism on the right, a bit overly zealous PC doesn't seem to be nearly the problem Harris, Petersen and others make it out to be.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Compared to the proto-facism on the right, a bit overly zealous PC doesn't seem to be nearly the problem Harris, Petersen and others make it out to be.
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I think such criticism are BS. People on the right just want to be able to spout racism and hate speech without hearing anyone call them out on it.
 
BadBoy said:
Sam Harris has been talking about this. He is suggesting the left have gone a bit insane with identity politics, safe spaces and shouting down anyone who has an issue with open borders or plastering the racist label over the mouths of anyone who has an issue with some some particular religious dogmas. They appear to be shutting down free speech. It seems offending someone with an idea is now a crime. Don't misjudge me, I am left of center myself. But I keep hearing people bang on about deep state and big pharma on the left with no or little critical thinking being employed.

"All we have is conversation" Sam Harris.
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I notice you don't have any evidence for this bull ****.
 
Norman Alexander said:
I gather that already there are many other ways for refugees to enter the USA besides "crossing the Rio Grande" or walking the deadly deserts. So even if the entire southern border was a 700 foot high ICE-wall guarded by proton cannons, the "illegal" refugee numbers would still be pretty much the same. They are far more inventive than Trump and his eagle-**** advisers.
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Don't tell Trump about boats, he'll want to build a wall along both US coasts.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Compared to the proto-facism on the right, a bit overly zealous PC doesn't seem to be nearly the problem Harris, Petersen and others make it out to be.
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Perhaps. I'm not coming to any conclusions myself. I am particularly cautious when taking on Harris's comments, but his arguments are often very convincing.

I remember getting frustrated a few years back with many (mainly conservative) people complaining about the political correctness "brigade", with the left wing going way over the top with every mention of the word "black".

I did a bit of research and while no means comprehensive or scientific, I did wonder if the Political Correctness S@#tfest wasn't just a bunch of people overreacting and talking past each other, with the media in the middle fueling the whole storm.

I looked into a couple of incidents in the UK that got completely out of hand. One was about a Birmingham council that wanted to ban the nursery rhyme "bah bah black sheep" in schools, within a week it was all over the national newspapers. It turned out the real story started because a school in Birmingham that was showing around a council delegation and a local press contingent (probably showing off a new building or facility the council paid for, or something like that). One of the council delegation had seen a black sheep poster and half casually mentioned that he/she it was offensive to black people. The local press contingent picked up on it. By the time it reached national papers it had turned into "Council to Ban Children's Nursery Rhyme".

All the conservatives went completely nuts over the strawman. Then the loony left kicked in and tried to defend it. Before long they were all arguing over the naming of "Black Boards" etc. All completely crazy.

Of course no one who mattered wanted to ban the Rhyme or change the name of Black Board to Chalk Board, as the idea was completely insane. But it didn't stop a whole bunch of people gouging each other over it all.
 
The issue in the US is less about PC and more about litigation - and the fact that many institutions will go out of their way to avoid it.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Compared to the proto-facism on the right, a bit overly zealous PC doesn't seem to be nearly the problem Harris, Petersen and others make it out to be.
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But we can't talk about the negro problem, the jewish problem or the trans problem with out being labeled as bigots!!!!

How are we supposed to solve these problems if we can't talk about them!
 
BadBoy said:
I looked into a couple of incidents in the UK that got completely out of hand. One was about a Birmingham council that wanted to ban the nursery rhyme "bah bah black sheep" in schools, within a week it was all over the national newspapers. It turned out the real story started because a school in Birmingham that was showing around a council delegation and a local press contingent (probably showing off a new building or facility the council paid for, or something like that). One of the council delegation had seen a black sheep poster and half casually mentioned that he/she it was offensive to black people. The local press contingent picked up on it. By the time it reached national papers it had turned into "Council to Ban Children's Nursery Rhyme".

All the conservatives went completely nuts over the strawman. Then the loony left kicked in and tried to defend it. Before long they were all arguing over the naming of "Black Boards" etc. All completely crazy.
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That reminds me of when Fox News did a story about one class in one school somewhere in the US singing a song about historically significant African-Americans, which included a verse about President Obama.

A couple hours later, one of their opinion shows talked about how outrageous it was that children were being forced to sing the praises of President Obama, comparing it to North Korea.

A couple hours after that, another news show did a story about how people were upset about children being forced to sing songs praising President Obama. They were reporting on outrage that they themselves had worked to create.
 
Just another anecdote on how the shutdown has a domino effect:

My oldest kid is in law school, and scored a clerkship for a federal judge over the summer for credit towards her degree, but no pay. The program has been pulled, and now she gets to pay for class credit, grabbing whatever class has not been filled, and loses that excellent experience.
 
BadBoy said:
Sam Harris has been talking about this. He is suggesting the left have gone a bit insane with identity politics, safe spaces and shouting down anyone who has an issue with open borders or plastering the racist label over the mouths of anyone who has an issue with some some particular religious dogmas. They appear to be shutting down free speech. It seems offending someone with an idea is now a crime. Don't misjudge me, I am left of center myself. But I keep hearing people bang on about deep state and big pharma on the left with no or little critical thinking being employed.

"All we have is conversation" Sam Harris.
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As someone who listens to Sam Harris's podcasts a lot, I feel you are kind of twisting what Harris says. There are people like that on the left. And I have seen this kind of behavior.

That said, I don't think he is referring to many politicians in the Democratic party. There is this tendency on both sides of the political spectrum to paint the entire opposition as the same perspective of the most radical and extreme members.
 
BadBoy said:
Sam Harris has been talking about this. He is suggesting the left have gone a bit insane with identity politics, safe spaces and shouting down anyone who has an issue with open borders or plastering the racist label over the mouths of anyone who has an issue with some some particular religious dogmas. They appear to be shutting down free speech. It seems offending someone with an idea is now a crime. Don't misjudge me, I am left of center myself. But I keep hearing people bang on about deep state and big pharma on the left with no or little critical thinking being employed.

"All we have is conversation" Sam Harris.
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The podcast that Harris had with Jonathan Haidt was a real eye-opener. I haven't got his book, but it sounds interesting. "The Coddling of the American Mind."



The outrage incidents we read about on campus, and even some of the fake self-racism hoaxes make more sense when viewed through the prism that Haidt posits - being oppressed as a form of social currency.



https://samharris.org/podcasts/137-safe-space/


Separately, Harris has talked about how the ACLU old guard who defended the Nazis marching at Skokie are having ideological conflicts with the new crop of donors who believe in more enforcement against "hate speech."
 
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Thermal said:
Just another anecdote on how the shutdown has a domino effect:

My oldest kid is in law school, and scored a clerkship for a federal judge over the summer for credit towards her degree, but no pay. The program has been pulled, and now she gets to pay for class credit, grabbing whatever class has not been filled, and loses that excellent experience.
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Yeah but look at the positive: now Trump got his money to stop the brown people from coming into the States.







oh, wait...
 
CapelDodger said:
This is an unfortunate analogy. Israel intends to take all Palestinian territory and uses walls and free-fire zones to take it bite by bite. The US took its first bites of Mexico in the 1840's :
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Bites? More like gulps. We took a third of their country ... by force of arms.

does the GOP intend to take the rest by building a wall then moving it South step-by-step? I can't see that playing well with their voters.
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The reason we didn't take even more was that, by general consensus, the rest had too many Mexicans living in it.

It doesn't seem like much has changed as far as attitudes are concerned.
 
quadraginta said:
If he makes them waterproof it might be a good investment for rising sea levels.
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We should tell Trump that the wall has to be built of Stem Cells and rocks from Mars to keep the brown people out most effectively. We can fully fund a space program and a medical revolution.
 
quadraginta said:
Bites? More like gulps. We took a third of their country ... by force of arms.
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And to think this might never have started if only they let the american immigrants violate their own laws about slavery.

This shows why immigrants can't be trusted, look what the Texans did to gain the right to own their slaves.
 
So Senator Graham has been suggesting that tying an increase to the debt ceiling in with the upcoming funding bill and border wall negotiations would be beneficial.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/lindsey-graham-debt-ceiling-border-deal-talks/index.html
An influential Republican senator is urging President Donald Trump to up the ante in talks over his border wall: To push for an increase in the national debt limit as part of a legislative package to avert another government shutdown in mid-February.

Now, in general dealing with the debt limit may make sense on a certain level. (And the Republicans think its a good negotiating tactic.) But does it really make sense for the republicans to link the topic of debt at the same time they're demanding billions to build an unnecessary wall?
 
Segnosaur said:
So Senator Graham has been suggesting that tying an increase to the debt ceiling in with the upcoming funding bill and border wall negotiations would be beneficial.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/lindsey-graham-debt-ceiling-border-deal-talks/index.html
An influential Republican senator is urging President Donald Trump to up the ante in talks over his border wall: To push for an increase in the national debt limit as part of a legislative package to avert another government shutdown in mid-February.

Now, in general dealing with the debt limit may make sense on a certain level. (And the Republicans think its a good negotiating tactic.) But does it really make sense for the republicans to link the topic of debt at the same time they're demanding billions to build an unnecessary wall?
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Wall Street is going to love that.......
 
Thermal said:
Just another anecdote on how the shutdown has a domino effect:

My oldest kid is in law school, and scored a clerkship for a federal judge over the summer for credit towards her degree, but no pay. The program has been pulled, and now she gets to pay for class credit, grabbing whatever class has not been filled, and loses that excellent experience.
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Dude, that sucks. Seriously.
 
Segnosaur said:
So Senator Graham has been suggesting that tying an increase to the debt ceiling in with the upcoming funding bill and border wall negotiations would be beneficial.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/lindsey-graham-debt-ceiling-border-deal-talks/index.html
An influential Republican senator is urging President Donald Trump to up the ante in talks over his border wall: To push for an increase in the national debt limit as part of a legislative package to avert another government shutdown in mid-February.

Now, in general dealing with the debt limit may make sense on a certain level. (And the Republicans think its a good negotiating tactic.) But does it really make sense for the republicans to link the topic of debt at the same time they're demanding billions to build an unnecessary wall?
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Graham's loyalty to the nation and conscience are buried at Annapolis with his friend John McCain.
 
Segnosaur said:
So Senator Graham has been suggesting that tying an increase to the debt ceiling in with the upcoming funding bill and border wall negotiations would be beneficial.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/lindsey-graham-debt-ceiling-border-deal-talks/index.html
An influential Republican senator is urging President Donald Trump to up the ante in talks over his border wall: To push for an increase in the national debt limit as part of a legislative package to avert another government shutdown in mid-February.

Now, in general dealing with the debt limit may make sense on a certain level. (And the Republicans think its a good negotiating tactic.) But does it really make sense for the republicans to link the topic of debt at the same time they're demanding billions to build an unnecessary wall?
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Do you think they'll be held accountable for the blatant hypocrisy or something?

Their base has no clue what any of that fancy talk means. They have no interest in recalling the previous rhetoric of their party on this same topic from several years ago. If such two-faced manipulations are exposed, then they'll just say "BANGHAZZZZIIIII!"
 
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Republicans will go to great lengths to avoid talking about the debt ceiling - which needs to be raised by $1.5 trillion because of the Tax Cut.
 
Armitage72 said:
That reminds me of when Fox News did a story about one class in one school somewhere in the US singing a song about historically significant African-Americans, which included a verse about President Obama.

A couple hours later, one of their opinion shows talked about how outrageous it was that children were being forced to sing the praises of President Obama, comparing it to North Korea.

A couple hours after that, another news show did a story about how people were upset about children being forced to sing songs praising President Obama. They were reporting on outrage that they themselves had worked to create.
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Yes, that's exactly it. Then people start getting annoyed that people are getting annoyed by that.

and the media love it.

But it is so easy to fall for it.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Do you think they'll be held accountable for the blatant hypocrisy or something?

Their base has no clue what any of that fancy talk means. They have no interest in recalling the previous rhetoric of their party on this same topic from several years ago. If such two-faced manipulations are exposed, then they'll just say "BANGHAZZZZIIIII!"
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Then they will try to claim it is a global conspiracy run from the basement of a pizza parlour in Philadelphia involving the Clintons when their dole money starts drying up.
 
acbytesla said:
As someone who listens to Sam Harris's podcasts a lot, I feel you are kind of twisting what Harris says. There are people like that on the left. And I have seen this kind of behavior.

That said, I don't think he is referring to many politicians in the Democratic party. There is this tendency on both sides of the political spectrum to paint the entire opposition as the same perspective of the most radical and extreme members.
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Fair point. Perhaps it's just fox and friends that spin it that way. I am sure I have seen various Trump supporters banging on about how Dems and Lib tards want open boarders ans "communistic" health care and to raise tax to 70% and ban Christianity in schools etc etc.

I like listening to Sam (still struggling what mindfulness actually is :/)
 
carlitos said:
The podcast that Harris had with Jonathan Haidt was a real eye-opener. I haven't got his book, but it sounds interesting. "The Coddling of the American Mind."



The outrage incidents we read about on campus, and even some of the fake self-racism hoaxes make more sense when viewed through the prism that Haidt posits - being oppressed as a form of social currency.



https://samharris.org/podcasts/137-safe-space/


Separately, Harris has talked about how the ACLU old guard who defended the Nazis marching at Skokie are having ideological conflicts with the new crop of donors who believe in more enforcement against "hate speech."
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Yes, I think I did listen t that one. Must go back and listen again as I can't remember the details.
 
WilliamSeger said:
That video really doesn't do justice to the difficulties. A few weeks ago, I took a low-altitude "tour" of the whole border in Google Earth, which has very detailed topographic maps and aerial photographs. Trump has never shown any sign that he is even aware, much less concerned, about the technical difficulties in the desolate places and the legal difficulties in developed areas, but between them, I seriously doubt this wall could ever cover more than half the border. Not that it really matters, though, since even where there is a wall, it will only be a speed bump for anyone who really wants to enter the country illegally. The utter stupidity of this project is reason enough to oppose it. Even after you've made your best case for why illegal immigration is a problem, justifying a stupidly ineffective "solution" is another matter.
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He actually did mention the geographic features in his rambling statement to the press* and didn't say, "so we won't be building there" but made it sound like a feature not a bug because these are "barriers" that have stood for millions of years. I'm not sure if he was getting ready to claim Godhood or hinting at not putting barriers up in those areas or what, but he did acknowledge that someone must've told him about the cliffs, escarpments, big ol' river, etc...


*(the one in which he hysterically made the mistake of referring to "Nancy Pelosi....." pause to check himself and realize he might've sounded marginally respectful.... "Who I call "Nancy"..." Trevor Noah had a blast with that part!)
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Republicans will go to great lengths to avoid talking about the debt ceiling - which needs to be raised by $1.5 trillion because of the Tax Cut.
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I think Graham was just floating a trial balloon that he discussed over his dessert with Trump (he got one scoop, Donnie got two).

"Ya know... after we finish screwing this pooch, we have to get Congress to raise the debt ceiling right after? How about we blame Nancy and Chuck and sneak in an article to raise it in the Great White Elephant Funding Omnibus Act of '19.

Doesn't the House have to sign off on raising the debt ceiling. How's about they don't do it and Donnie has to send his kids door-to-door to ask Americans for their average $1500 windfall, explaining how Jared and Jared's daddy saved ten million but gee, that's already spent.
 
But... Pelosi sarcastically clapped at him! Surely Donald will be way too terrified to shut down the government a second time after suffering a defeat of that magnitude!
 
And the breakdown is because of a pretty obscure issue: how many people immigrataion services can arrest; the Dems are more or less trying to severaly limit it.
IMHO the Dems are overplaying their hand on this issue;causing a shutdown because of trying to pander to more mitlitants ideologues in your own party does not look any better on the Dems then it does on the GOP.
 
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