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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 6th March 2019, 01:27 PM   #1401
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did the telemedics in that article diagnose autism based on the subjects tweets and TV interviews?

No they did not. They used an interactive videoconference to conduct a patient interview over a distance, with a significant degree of success.
There is a difference between diagnosing a specific condition, and diagnosing that someone is not well and should have a proper medical examination.

The first might be difficult. The second is pretty straightforward in the case of Trump.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:35 PM   #1402
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh gee golly willikers! I dunno. Maybe his history?
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dude, that's just second-hand information!
FAKE HISTORY!
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #1403
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did the telemedics in that article diagnose autism based on the subjects tweets and TV interviews?
No, but that article and a few hundred thousand other articles suffice to establish that "remote diagnosis" was not "a term coined in this thread", as was claimed by the very same theprestige whose fatuous riposte is countered by the fact noted here.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #1404
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Early recognition of children with autism: A study of first birthday home videotapes
Quote:
In combination, four behaviors correctly classified 10 of 11 autistic children and 10 of 11 normal children. These behaviors consisted of pointing, showing objects, looking at others, and orienting to name.
Home Videos Show Autism Starts Later in Some
Quote:
Birthday Party Videos Show Symptoms of Autism Emerge at Different Times...

Researchers say it's the first objective evidence of autistic regression, a form of autism that accounts for about 25% of all autism cases in the U.S.
Videos can be used as objective evidence of disorders.

The idea all of the observations and information we have about Trump is somehow lacking that critical in-person evaluation is ludicrous.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:55 PM   #1405
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
No, but that article and a few hundred thousand other articles suffice to establish that "remote diagnosis" was not "a term coined in this thread", as was claimed by the very same theprestige whose fatuous riposte is countered by the fact noted here.
Different communities can arrive at the same nelogism by separate routes. A longstanding term in one field can even be "coined" independently in another field. I didn't have any awareness of the existing literature on remote diagnosis when we first started using the term here. I'm open to the possibility that it was lurking somewhere in the back of my memory, though.

I'm a big fan of telemedicine (tele-anything, really). I'm quite happy to concede that this field has been using "remote diagnosis" for a lot longer than I have. Thank you for the correction, and for inducting me into the ranks of today's ten thousand.

As long as we agree that xjx didn't actually claim that the Yale Group made up the term, I'm content with the result.

I'll probably go back to "remote viewing" anyway. Just to avoid the implication that the Yale Group is actually using any kind of established telemedicine protocol.

ETA: And note also that there actually is a lot of published research about novel telemedicine methodologies. I seem to recall someone in this thread - SG, perhaps? - trying to argue that real mental health professionals don't conduct or publish methodology research.

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Old 6th March 2019, 04:59 PM   #1406
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Early recognition of children with autism: A study of first birthday home videotapes

Home Videos Show Autism Starts Later in Some


Videos can be used as objective evidence of disorders.

The idea all of the observations and information we have about Trump is somehow lacking that critical in-person evaluation is ludicrous.


You are attempting to extrapolate research in one very specific area of mental health to the whole field. Autism is a very different thing and it isnít surprising to me that professionals (and parents) would be able to recognize signs of regression between 1st birthdays and 2nd birthdays.

You will note, however, that the researchers do not conclude that they should be diagnosing autism based solely on videos, only that screening should happen at early and frequent intervals to watch for signs of autistic regression.

You will also note that this research focused on real-life behavior of children and not on media appearances, tweets, news stories, etc. Again, you are extrapolating from something very specific to something very general.

Now, to support your position, you need to show the research showing that professionals could distinguish dangerous forms of NPD from non-pathological forms based on watching people on video, reading their tweets, etc. Iíd certainly be interested in that.


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Old 6th March 2019, 05:06 PM   #1407
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If there are scholarly studies about using telemedicine to diagnose autism, why hasn't the Yale Group published any studies on their own work?
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:25 PM   #1408
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are attempting to extrapolate research in one very specific area of mental health to the whole field. Autism is a very different thing and it isnít surprising to me that professionals (and parents) would be able to recognize signs of regression between 1st birthdays and 2nd birthdays.

You will note, however, that the researchers do not conclude that they should be diagnosing autism based solely on videos, only that screening should happen at early and frequent intervals to watch for signs of autistic regression.

You will also note that this research focused on real-life behavior of children and not on media appearances, tweets, news stories, etc. Again, you are extrapolating from something very specific to something very general.

Now, to support your position, you need to show the research showing that professionals could distinguish dangerous forms of NPD from non-pathological forms based on watching people on video, reading their tweets, etc. Iíd certainly be interested in that....
Which is it, Trump obviously has NPD but it's unethical for the professionals to state it publicly?

For some inexplicable reason an in-person evaluation is needed to say so?

Or there's not enough evidence in the public sphere to say he has NPD?

You keep shifting your position.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:29 PM   #1409
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If there are scholarly studies about using telemedicine to diagnose autism, why hasn't the Yale Group published any studies on their own work?
You think this is relevant why?

And it wasn't telemedicine, it was accurately diagnosing autism from home videos, especially first year videos.

The videos were evaluated by themselves, then compared to later diagnoses.
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:08 AM   #1410
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which is it, Trump obviously has NPD but it's unethical for the professionals to state it publicly?



For some inexplicable reason an in-person evaluation is needed to say so?



Or there's not enough evidence in the public sphere to say he has NPD?



You keep shifting your position.


More gaslighting. My position is the same itís always been and you didnít even come close.


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Old 7th March 2019, 10:03 AM   #1411
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is a difference between diagnosing a specific condition, and diagnosing that someone is not well and should have a proper medical examination.

The first might be difficult. The second is pretty straightforward in the case of Trump.
The Yale Group has diagnosed Trump with a specific condition.
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Old 7th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #1412
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
More gaslighting. My position is the same itís always been and you didnít even come close.
....

Here's Dr. Lee's response to your position, from the link above:
Quote:
In mental disease, a useful clue is the level to which the person denies any possibility that something could be wrong with oneself. If one denies it vehemently, then that is already a clue. After a certain point, you start using the formula of taking the opposite of what the person is saying to be true, and taking all assertions to be projectionóand by now I have more high-quality data on Mr. Trump than any patient I have ever treated.
https://www.salon.com/2019/03/05/psy...ng-it_partner/
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Old 7th March 2019, 10:20 AM   #1413
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's Dr. Lee's response to your position, from the link above:

[...I have more high-quality data on Mr. Trump than any patient I have ever treated...]
Show us the data, then. Show us the data, and show us the methodology that distinguishes high-quality data from low-quality data. Show us the rest of the methodology while you're at it.
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Old 7th March 2019, 11:12 AM   #1414
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's Dr. Lee's response to your position, from the link above:



https://www.salon.com/2019/03/05/psy...ng-it_partner/


Kind of a ridiculous statement to make. The more she talks, the less I respect her. Really, the more a patient denies they are crazy, the crazier they are? Then you apply the magic Opposite Day formula.

That sounds like a method for convincing someone they are crazy.

And then, she has the data. The best data! Everyone tells her.


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Old 11th March 2019, 06:46 AM   #1415
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George Conway getting into the NPD argument on twitter

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/statu...17877063368704
But as has often been noted, that’s not the only condition that’s at issue here. He’s 9 for 9 on this one (and only 5 are required):

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Old 11th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #1416
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Trump called Tim Cook "Tim Apple," which wouldn't matter much except then he then lied about it.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...n-purpose.html
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #1417
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
George Conway getting into the NPD argument on twitter

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/statu...17877063368704
But as has often been noted, thatís not the only condition thatís at issue here. Heís 9 for 9 on this one (and only 5 are required):

Life in the Conway household certainly must be "interesting"!
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:04 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Kind of a ridiculous statement to make. The more she talks, the less I respect her. Really, the more a patient denies they are crazy, the crazier they are? Then you apply the magic Opposite Day formula.

That sounds like a method for convincing someone they are crazy.

And then, she has the data. The best data! Everyone tells her.
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ETA - I have no objection whatsoever to George Conway diagnosing Trump with NPD.

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Old 11th March 2019, 12:48 PM   #1419
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
George Conway getting into the NPD argument on twitter

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/statu...17877063368704
But as has often been noted, thatís not the only condition thatís at issue here. Heís 9 for 9 on this one (and only 5 are required):



Now lawyers are mental health professionals? Iím sure this is what we want.


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Old 11th March 2019, 01:42 PM   #1420
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Now lawyers are mental health professionals? Iím sure this is what we want.


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I am not medically trained, but do hold a first aid certificate. Certain red flags don't need doctors to make effective diagnoses. For example, if I see someone with facial drooping, arm weakness and speech difficulties, I know something's wrong, and there's a high chance it's a stroke and the appropriate action is to call for an ambulance.

Similarly with Trump, his behaviour is seriously abnormal for an adult. Getting so hung up on "Tim Apple" for example. Now, obviously *that* particular behaviour is merely humiliating, but it probably means that contrary to what he'd like you to believe in The Art of the Deal he would be quite easy to manipulate in international meetings, especially when he doesn't have minders present. That could be dangerous to the wider interests of the United States.

Also, we don't know the prognosis for his mental health issues, as he's denying them. But we do know that some people (like David Koresh or Jim Jones) seemed to have some similar traits, but also preferred dying in a blaze of infamy rather than living with embarrassment. At the moment, we don't know if Trump's pathology is similar but the risk is there (I hope it's small) but there is enough to realise he's not right, and should have a proper psychological assessment.
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #1421
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Now lawyers are mental health professionals? Iím sure this is what we want.
It's the new Yale College of Psychiatry online curriculum: Watch a YouTube of Dr Lee. Read a few excerpts from anyone's Twitter feed. Now you're able to diagnose anything in the DSM! (Extra credit: Buy Dr Lee's book.)
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:53 PM   #1422
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Now lawyers are mental health professionals? Iím sure this is what we want.
.....
But you don't think board-certified mental health professionals should speak up, either. When the most powerful man in the world is transparently disturbed, nobody's supposed to say anything?

Spend two hours watching Dear Leader's CPAC speech and get back to us.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/u...act-check.html
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...quotes-1199530
https://www.thenation.com/article/tr...s-a-breakdown/
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:55 PM   #1423
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Now lawyers are mental health professionals? Iím sure this is what we want.


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I'm not a doctor, but when I see the bone sticking out of a person's leg I don't think it's far-fetched to tell 911 the victim has a compound fracture. Of course, I could wait for a doctor to arrive on scene and just tell the 911 operator that I haven't got a clue what's wrong with the victim.
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:56 PM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But you don't think board-certified mental health professionals should speak up, either. When the most powerful man in the world is transparently disturbed, nobody's supposed to say anything?

Spend two hours watching Dear Leader's CPAC speech and get back to us.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/u...act-check.html
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...quotes-1199530
https://www.thenation.com/article/tr...s-a-breakdown/
Sadist!
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Old 11th March 2019, 04:18 PM   #1425
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
More gaslighting. My position is the same itís always been and you didnít even come close.


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Typical dodge. Instead of just saying what your position is, you drag it out with this nonsense.
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Old 11th March 2019, 04:23 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Kind of a ridiculous statement to make. The more she talks, the less I respect her. Really, the more a patient denies they are crazy, the crazier they are? Then you apply the magic Opposite Day formula.
...


You know that's not even close to what she said. You appear to be having a very hard time here admitting the obvious: Trump has pathologic NPD.

Another new one today, he couldn't admit he called Tim Cook, Tim Apple so he's pretending he said Tim Cook and then said Apple.

The sentence then, of course, fails to make sense: "We appreciate it very much, Tim Apple," Trump said.

(I see that's been posted. )
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Old 11th March 2019, 04:27 PM   #1427
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Trump has never been wrong about anything in his life. Just ask him.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:43 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But you don't think board-certified mental health professionals should speak up, either. When the most powerful man in the world is transparently disturbed, nobody's supposed to say anything?



Spend two hours watching Dear Leader's CPAC speech and get back to us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/u...act-check.html

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...quotes-1199530

https://www.thenation.com/article/tr...s-a-breakdown/


Say all you want. That isnít the issue. It issue is wrapping an opinion up in a white coat and calling it a professional opinion. They can speak as citizens; there is no need for them to speak as professionals.


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Old 11th March 2019, 08:51 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Typical dodge. Instead of just saying what your position is, you drag it out with this nonsense.


If you donít know my position after all this time and all the exchanges weíve had. . . Well, I donít know what to tell you. But Iíll indulge you and be very succinct: Professionals should follow professional standards when delivering professional opinions.

I donít need to acknowledge that Trump has pathologic NPD. I can see that he sucks as President. But apparently, thatís not good enough. What, Iím expected to cast aside my respect for the integrity of the medical profession just to get another jab in? I donít think so. Thereís plenty of ammo without a need to involve the medical profession.


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Old 11th March 2019, 09:47 PM   #1430
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Trump being so desperate to fix the Tim Apple gaffe is an interesting case, since IMO it suggests that Trump is aware of his dementia, and desperate to hide it.
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Old 11th March 2019, 09:57 PM   #1431
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If you donít know my position after all this time and all the exchanges weíve had. . . Well, I donít know what to tell you. But Iíll indulge you and be very succinct: Professionals should follow professional standards when delivering professional opinions.
We got that part, you don't approve of other people voicing their opinions. It ignores the fact those opinions are correct, based on overwhelming evidence.

You can't admit they do have professional standards and opinions.

The merry-go-round comes back again.
They didn't follow professional standards
What are they missing?
Can't say, go back to claiming their opinions are unreliable because of some stuff you read on the internet

You got nothing.


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I donít need to acknowledge that Trump has pathologic NPD. I can see that he sucks as President.
That's a cop out.
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But apparently, thatís not good enough. What, Iím expected to cast aside my respect for the integrity of the medical profession just to get another jab in? I donít think so. Thereís plenty of ammo without a need to involve the medical profession.
Oh puhleese.

You criticize those of us who have voiced our evidence based conclusions for ... reasons you cannot articulate other than some rules you read on the internet.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:02 PM   #1432
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump being so desperate to fix the Tim Apple gaffe is an interesting case, since IMO it suggests that Trump is aware of his dementia, and desperate to hide it.
This is a tough call. I'd go with denial. He can't face something as simple as admitting he misspoke. He can't do it. His pathology stops him from being able to think it. So he rationalizes that he really said Cook and at some point in time that becomes his actual memory.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:59 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is a tough call. I'd go with denial. He can't face something as simple as admitting he misspoke. He can't do it. His pathology stops him from being able to think it. So he rationalizes that he really said Cook and at some point in time that becomes his actual memory.
...which is typical of Dementia.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #1434
carlitos
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is a tough call. I'd go with denial. He can't face something as simple as admitting he misspoke. He can't do it. His pathology stops him from being able to think it. So he rationalizes that he really said Cook and at some point in time that becomes his actual memory.
You were asking about "armchair psychology" before. See above.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:02 AM   #1435
I Am The Scum
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In yet another day of presidenting with a very big brain...
Quote:
Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly. Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT. I see it all the time in many products. Always seeking to go one unnecessary step further, when often old and simpler is far better. Split second decisions are....
....needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!
If my dad started talking like this, I'd see to it that he got professional help.
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:07 AM   #1436
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We got that part, you don't approve of other people voicing their opinions.
Not at all what I said.
Quote:
It ignores the fact those opinions are correct, based on overwhelming evidence.
What he have is evidence that Trump is not a very good President. There is zero evidence that he is ďdangerously mentally ill.Ē



Quote:
You can't admit they do have professional standards and opinions.
I will admit it as soon as you present it. All you have to do is present some professional and accepted methodology for analyzing public appearances, tweets, sound bites, etc to arrive at a valid and accurate diagnosis. Iíll wait.



Quote:
The merry-go-round comes back again.
They didn't follow professional standards
What are they missing?
Can't say, go back to claiming their opinions are unreliable because of some stuff you read on the internet





You got nothing.
And all you have is,

ďThere are standardsĒ
ďOk, show them.Ē
Canít show them, go back to to asserting that they and you are experts and I wouldnít get it or something.





Quote:
That's a cop out.
No. Itís the only valid opinion anyone who hasnít met Trump and personally evaluated him can have.


Quote:
Oh puhleese.



You criticize those of us who have voiced our evidence based conclusions for ... reasons you cannot articulate other than some rules you read on the internet.
Evidence-based? Ha! Evidenced-based has a professional meaning, as Iím sure you know, and analyzing people youíve never met has absolutely no evidenced-based guidelines. Puhleeese, indeed.


I canít articulate it any better than this: Any professional who does not follow professional standards has no basis to form a professional opinion. Punto.


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Old 13th March 2019, 06:53 AM   #1437
Delvo
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The "Tim Apple" thing is interesting because it fits into a strange pattern. He also called Marillyn Hewson "Marillyn Lockheed". That flew under the radar at the time because his critics were more interested in reacting to his making it sound as if a stealth plane were literally invisible. (I didn't see a big deal about that one myself; the professionals who are actually involved with those things on a daily basis use that kind of casual analogy routinely.)

Notice also that the only entities he's been in charge of (that he cares about, so "the USA" doesn't count) have his name on them. It's like he's using that as his model to mentally connect other people with their companies.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:58 AM   #1438
Bob001
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
....
I can’t articulate it any better than this: Any professional who does not follow professional standards has no basis to form a professional opinion. Punto.
....

Another helpful interview with Dr. Lee:
Quote:
Raw Story: Can you describe some of the psychological patterns you find alarming?[/i]
Certain things I cannot know without an examination, but there is a lot I can know, and with all the high-quality data that are available, I now know as much about his patterns as any patient I have ever examined. Just about every hypothesis I would have tested in an office setting has been demonstrated in real life, in real time with real consequences, and it would be dishonest for me to pretend this were not the case.

Many clinicians feel this way. Expertise means you have spent a lot of time training to see things ordinary people do not see. Even with the same information, what is medically noteworthy is not necessarily what ordinary people notice.

My grandfather was a celebrated internist, and after treating patients 20 hours a day for decades, he said he could diagnose them as they crossed over the threshold to his office. Any tests he did after that only confirmed what he already knew. If he could diagnose cancer this way, psychiatric problems are even easier to detect, especially if the information you are looking for is how a person affects the public. Mr. Trump is a very straightforward case. We know that his White House doctor didn’t include a psychiatrist among his “11 different Board certified specialists,” because any trainee would have spotted right away that he is severely compromised.

And you'll be pleased to learn that Dr. Lee is holding a public conference in Washington next week called “The Dangerous State of the World and the Need for Fit Leadership.”

You can sign up here:
https://dangerouscase.org/

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:03 AM   #1439
carlitos
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A public conference in Washington details:

Quote:
ďThe Dangerous State of the World and the Need for Fit Leadership.Ē

A conference Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 1 to 4 p.m.

National Press Club, 529 14th St NW, Washington, DC 20045
Amazon new book edition release details:

Quote:
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 37 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President - Updated and Expanded with New Essays Hardcover Ė March 19, 2019
by Bandy X. Lee (Author), Jeffrey Sachs (Foreword), Robert Jay Lifton (Contributor), Gail Sheehy (Contributor), & 37 more
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:12 AM   #1440
Bob001
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Deleted. Wrong thread.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 10:15 AM.
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