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Old 15th March 2019, 04:32 AM   #281
uke2se
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Of those four tweets one might qualify as a girl, the other is a woman. One is a community organization and one is I don't know what, something. A person, most like.

Plus one media organization.



If you have a problem with those I can find more important media outlets.

BBC is an important media organization, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693

Investigators are still trying to establish what led a 29-year-old security guard from Florida to murder 49 people and injure dozens more as they partied in popular gay nightclub Pulse.

He called 911 to tell his motive was loyatly to ISIS, it doesn't seem that hard to "establish motive". He said so himself and yet his alledged sexuality (later debunked) recieved significant coverage.

I doubt this - or anything else - will change your mind, which is exactly what I'm reffering to in my 'whining'.

McHrozni
Maybe he joined ISIS because he was a closet homosexual? Do you find that so unimportant that it shouldn't be speculated about? Is it enough for you to say "terrorist" and leave it at that?

ETA: I wouldn't have a hissy fit if someone started speculating what led Breivik to become a mass murdering right wing terrorist. In fact, that has been attempted multiple times.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:36 AM   #282
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Maybe he joined ISIS because he was a closet homosexual? Do you find that so unimportant that it shouldn't be speculated about? Is it enough for you to say "terrorist" and leave it at that?
Here's the recording:

http://time.com/4552365/omar-mateen-...ing-911-calls/

Here's the text:
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/...-released.html

Feel free to point out which part of "Yo, the airstrike that killed Abu Wahid a few weeks ago -- that's what triggered it, okay?" says "I joined ISIS because I'm gay and they hate gays".

Have fun.

Also, the mere fact we're having this conversation at all proves my point again, so thanks

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Old 15th March 2019, 04:37 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Here's the recording:

http://time.com/4552365/omar-mateen-...ing-911-calls/

Here's the text:
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/...-released.html

Feel free to point out which part of "Yo, the airstrike that killed Abu Wahid a few weeks ago -- that's what triggered it, okay?" says "I joined ISIS because I'm gay and they hate gays.

Have fun.

Also, the mere fact we're having this conversation at all proves my point again, so thanks

McHrozni
What point is it that you think you have?
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:39 AM   #284
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I imagine the conversation after this will very much focus on access to guns, both in NZ and in other places. That is, of course, appropriate.

I also hope that some serious consideration is made about the general toxicity of the new/alt-right. This guy's manifesto and rifle is plastered with 8chan memes. I was reading the comments on a Fox News article covering the shooting and they are all either blaming the victims, or complaining about Islam or Globalism. They come just short of openly endorsing the slaughter. The mainstream right is increasingly becoming hard to distinguish from the radical right. The ideological base of the alt-right is quite large.

The alt-right is dangerous. Everyone should have already known that, but it's going to be impossible to deny it now.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:41 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I imagine the conversation after this will very much focus on access to guns, both in NZ and in other places. That is, of course, appropriate.

I also hope that some serious consideration is made about the general toxicity of the new/alt-right. This guy's manifesto and rifle is plastered with 8chan memes. I was reading the comments on a Fox News article covering the shooting and they are all either blaming the victims, or complaining about Islam or Globalism. They come just short of openly endorsing the slaughter.

The alt-right is dangerous. Everyone should have already known that, but it's going to be impossible to deny it now.
Sadly true.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:44 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Never heard of this guy, so I just looked him up. Kinda wish I hadnt now.

He sounds like a weapons grade bellend.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:50 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apparently there just happened to be a massive AOS (Police Armed Offenders Squad) training excersize happening in ChCh, which is why there was such a huge response city wide.

Probably bad to describe this as "a good thing", but kind of handy
That's on the same level as the bus on 7/7 blowing up right next to the headquarters of the British Medical Association, where even more doctors than usual were there for a meeting. The conspiracy theorists will have a field day....
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:59 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
Never heard of this guy, so I just looked him up. Kinda wish I hadnt now.



He sounds like a weapons grade bellend.
Yes. Got 16 votes at the election but made it to senator still.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:02 AM   #289
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What point is it that you think you have?
That we should approach Islam-inspired massacres in the same manner as we do this one and not treat them with undue additional curtesy we currently do.

McHrozni
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:03 AM   #290
philkensebben
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Yes. Got 16 votes at the election but made it to senator still.
Just read on wiki it was 19, but yeah, ridiculous. I dont understand how that works. If you can bothered, can you explain to me how he became a Senator on the back of 19 votes? Perhaps on the Australian politics thread so as not to derail this.

Anyway, absolutely terrible thing to happen in Christchurch. Very sorry for my NZ brothers and sisters.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:05 AM   #291
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I just read this article on Australian troll pages run by people from the Balkans, published just before the attacks...

https://abc.net.au/news/2019-03-15/t...80?pfmredir=sm

It's really frightening reading. Is our open, free and democratic society really so weak against this?
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:05 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
Just read on wiki it was 19, but yeah, ridiculous. I dont understand how that works. If you can bothered, can you explain to me how he became a Senator on the back of 19 votes? Perhaps on the Australian politics thread so as not to derail this.

Anyway, absolutely terrible thing to happen in Christchurch. Very sorry for my NZ brothers and sisters.
Yeah it's a derail, but look up "preference whispering".
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:09 AM   #293
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This tragedy could have been avoided if New Zealand had sealed up the border. There wouldn't be mass-shootings of Muslims if there weren't Muslims to shoot.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:13 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm using (some might say abusing, but idk) this sad example of a non-Muslim extremist doing what has been a nearly exclusive domain of Muslims for many years to highlight the hypocrycy is reversed.
Say, what...?!
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:17 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Either that or do what Shidiq Khan said, which can be summarised as: "Feces and terrorism happen".
He said precisely nothing of the sort. Have you been listening to Trump and his similarly brain-dead spawn?

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Old 15th March 2019, 05:22 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t agree with this. However the guns used were obtained, Australia has proven that you can eliminate mass shootings by making semi-automatics almost impossible to obtain. PM Howard stared down the gun enthusiasts and won. I hope your PM can do the same.

Spare me the “right to own whatever gun we want” arguments.
It has nothing to do with “right to own whatever gun we want”, it has to do with not making knee jerk reactionary laws that wouldn't have prevented the incident in the first place.

It was most probable that he had these weapons illegally in the first place, the extended magazine he had were already illegal in New Zealand full stop, and to have the AR-15 requires an endorsement, one I doubt he had. Making it more illegal would not stop someone that is willing to break the law already.

Australia's gun laws would not prevent what happened here happening there. We appear to have someone that has smuggled in illegal weapons, possibly even modified them illegally, and used them illegally.

Changing the Gun Laws in NZ would have as much effect on preventing what happened, happening again, as changing the murder laws would.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:24 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It has nothing to do with “right to own whatever gun we want”, it has to do with not making knee jerk reactionary laws that wouldn't have prevented the incident in the first place.

It was most probable that he had these weapons illegally in the first place, the extended magazine he had were already illegal in New Zealand full stop, and to have the AR-15 requires an endorsement, one I doubt he had. Making it more illegal would not stop someone that is willing to break the law already.

Australia's gun laws would not prevent what happened here happening there. We appear to have someone that has smuggled in illegal weapons, possibly even modified them illegally, and used them illegally.

Changing the Gun Laws in NZ would have as much effect on preventing what happened, happening again, as changing the murder laws would.
The question will be where exactly the gun came from. If it was straight up smuggled into the country from overseas, then I don't really see any kind of ban having much impact. If it was a legally owned semi-auto in NZ and at some point was stolen or otherwise improperly changed hands leading to a non-licensed person possessing it, I could easily a path forward to banning the guns in the country altogether.

NZ, being a small island nation, might find banning and preventing smuggling a bit easier than other countries that share large land borders.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:26 AM   #298
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Say, what...?!
The overwhelming majority still is.

Unless of course you're going to claim all mass shootings are alike and the attacks against ethnic and religious subgroups don't deserve a special category. Are you of that opinion? Most relevant people disagree you know.

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Old 15th March 2019, 05:30 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you have a problem with those I can find more important media outlets.

BBC is an important media organization, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693

Investigators are still trying to establish what led a 29-year-old security guard from Florida to murder 49 people and injure dozens more as they partied in popular gay nightclub Pulse.

He called 911 to tell his motive was loyatly to ISIS, it doesn't seem that hard to "establish motive". He said so himself and yet his alledged sexuality (later debunked) recieved significant coverage.
That report is UK dated 15 June 2016, so will be 3˝ days or less after event, and is reporting police lines of inquiry. Do you think the police should have stopped dead after that call, and not investigated whether there were other factors?

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Old 15th March 2019, 05:31 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The question will be where exactly the gun came from. If it was straight up smuggled into the country from overseas, then I don't really see any kind of ban having much impact. If it was a legally owned semi-auto in NZ and at some point was stolen or other improperly changed hands, I could easily a path forward to banning the guns in the country altogether.

NZ, being a small island nation, might find banning and preventing smuggling a bit easier than other countries that share large land borders.
Well this is why I keep on saying that we need to know how he got the weapons. The issue with it being a stolen rifle is that those that have an "E" endorsement on their licences and can own one of these weapons also have very stringent regulations about how they are to be kept to prevent theft of them and have to report any thefts to the police, so again the laws are there.

The fact is that this appears to be a rogue case that no matter what firearms laws were in place could not have been prevented, knee jerking and making it harder for honest citizens to own guns by changing the laws in ways that wouldn't have prevented it is beyond stupid, it's like demanding that airlines refit all their planes with better seatbelts after terrorists use a stinger missile to shoot down at airliner. It might feel good, but it's useless.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:33 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That report is UK dated 15 June 2016, so will be 3˝ days or less after event, and is reporting police lines of inquiry.
Exactly. It didn't take long for his alledged homophobia to become mainstream. To this day you have people claiming he did it due to his repressed homosexuality and not fanatical Islamic beliefs he expressed explicity and deliberately during the attack.

I don't really expect many allegation that these attackers were suppressed Muslims or something to that effect. It's possible I suppose, we'll see if you were right OK?

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Old 15th March 2019, 05:35 AM   #302
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Can you lot take your derail elsewhere.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:38 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The overwhelming majority still is.
Nice use of nowism to had-wave away all the separatist and secular political terrorism of the 1970s and 1980s.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:40 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Exactly. It didn't take long for his alledged homophobia to become mainstream.
Are you suggesting that the media should not have reported that the police said it was something they were investigating?
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:42 AM   #305
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On the changing of gun laws, I'd like to compare with Aramoana.

In 1990 NZ's gun laws were very lax, gun licences were easy to get, there was no limits on what weapons you could have beyond no fully automatics, and no real checks on what people were buying. Thus when it was discovered that David Gray had bought himself a small arsenal of weapons, there was a need to look at and re-evaluate our gun laws, and when that was done they were made far, far stricter with major limitations on ownership and importation of certain weapons, and even requiring a licence to buy ammo and primers.

While there might be something that needs looking into in this case if the weapons were obtained legally (I doubt that they were) the laws themselves are pretty good, without being draconian. I don't believe that taking everyone's semi-automatic hunting rifles off them because of one bigoted extremist is a good idea, nor would it solve any actual issue.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:42 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The question will be where exactly the gun came from.
He had at least 6 long guns. Rifles and shotguns. Some were assault-style and some not. Some might be considered hunting or target guns. I saw them in the video. I saw no handguns.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:43 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well this is why I keep on saying that we need to know how he got the weapons. The issue with it being a stolen rifle is that those that have an "E" endorsement on their licences and can own one of these weapons also have very stringent regulations about how they are to be kept to prevent theft of them and have to report any thefts to the police, so again the laws are there.

The fact is that this appears to be a rogue case that no matter what firearms laws were in place could not have been prevented, knee jerking and making it harder for honest citizens to own guns by changing the laws in ways that wouldn't have prevented it is beyond stupid, it's like demanding that airlines refit all their planes with better seatbelts after terrorists use a stinger missile to shoot down at airliner. It might feel good, but it's useless.
I think the case may be made that legal semi-autos, no matter how well regulated and how strict the licensing, increases the risk of theft or other supply into the local black market. If the gun was ever in NZ legally, then that argument is going to be easy to make. If the weapon came overseas illegally, than that case will not be as easy to make.

We can theorize about hypotheticals all day long, but magazine fed, semi-auto rifles and/or pistols seems to be the weapon of choice for spree killers. Whether or not they could be as effective with a pump action shotgun, single action revolver, bolt action rifle, or any other such non-ban item is immaterial, because these are not the weapons spree killers prefer. I expect the body count would have been lower with a weapon that has a slower rate of fire due to not being magazine fed. Spree killing would still be possible, but perhaps not as severe. It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:46 AM   #308
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:47 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The only thing I was "going on" about was terrorist threats, which I take very seriously regardless of "ideaology." It's frightening you and the rest ISF don't

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12377521
Well that's certainly an "interesting" way of avoiding admitting to being wrong.

You're the one who brought up "anti-Trump", while this guy was (alledgedly) the opposite. Apparently ideology (not "ideaology") was important so long as it served your own.

So can we focus on the fact that a bunch of people were minding their own business when some ******* came along and shot them?
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:52 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.
He used a pump action shotgun to shoot people on the sidewalk while he was driving. He shot out his own windshield and passenger side window as he was shooting pedestrians. He was doing this and driving simultaneously. He had multiple guns sitting waiting on his passenger seat. Instead of reloading he could just grab another loaded gun ready to shoot. I watched the video.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:56 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
On the changing of gun laws, I'd like to compare with Aramoana.

In 1990 NZ's gun laws were very lax, gun licences were easy to get, there was no limits on what weapons you could have beyond no fully automatics, and no real checks on what people were buying. Thus when it was discovered that David Gray had bought himself a small arsenal of weapons, there was a need to look at and re-evaluate our gun laws, and when that was done they were made far, far stricter with major limitations on ownership and importation of certain weapons, and even requiring a licence to buy ammo and primers.

While there might be something that needs looking into in this case if the weapons were obtained legally (I doubt that they were) the laws themselves are pretty good, without being draconian. I don't believe that taking everyone's semi-automatic hunting rifles off them because of one bigoted extremist is a good idea, nor would it solve any actual issue.
How the weapon/s used were obtained will probably be the deciding factor. It worth noting that in the UK, after Hungerford, all semi-auto rifles except in .22 LR were banned. There are no cosmetic restrictions, so straight-pull L1A1s, AR-15s, etc. are legal, albeit expensive. In comparison, NZ putting tighter restrictions on MSSAs after Aramoana - and subsequently tweaking the definition - seems more like a PR move than actually addressing the issue.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 15th March 2019 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:58 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He used a pump action shotgun to shoot people on the sidewalk while he was driving. He shot out his own windshield and passenger side window as he was shooting pedestrians. He was doing this and driving simultaneously. He had multiple guns sitting waiting on his passenger seat. Instead of reloading he could just grab another loaded gun ready to shoot. I watched the video.
My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the majority of the deaths occurred inside the mosque, which precludes driving around a mobile armory inside a car. I haven't watched the video. Was the shooter carrying a bunch of rifles and switching off to avoid reloading while inside the mosque? That seems impractical compared to just using a magazine fed semi auto.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:00 AM   #313
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Just heard.

My deepest condolences to the victims, their loved ones and the people on New Zealand.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:04 AM   #314
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I don't understand the existence of accomplices (others arrested). This guy acted alone in these killings.

In the video you ride with him for miles to get to the Al Noor mosque and then for miles driving away (presumably towards the other mosque). There is nobody but him. He has multiple gasoline cans in his station wagon. Maybe he also has bombs but I didn't see any.

I'm reading that multiple vehicles had IEDs attached? He did all of that? Maybe he took the numerous gas cans and placed them at nearby cars at the second mosque. At the Al Noor mosque he just drives away with all the cans.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:06 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think the case may be made that legal semi-autos, no matter how well regulated and how strict the licensing, increases the risk of theft or other supply into the local black market. If the gun was ever in NZ legally, then that argument is going to be easy to make. If the weapon came overseas illegally, than that case will not be as easy to make.
Gun owners in New Zealand have to keep their weapons in a properly gun safe with the ammo in a separate locked container. The police will check these prior to your obtaining a gun licence, and conduct annual checks to make sure that they are being maintained and used correctly.

While it is certainly not 100% against theft of weapons, the figures show that there are only about 550 firearms stolen each year, the vast majority being rifles and shotguns, pistols being a distant behind 3rd, and the rest making up about 2% of thefts. Put on top of that, that police recover about 3/5ths of these weapons, so it means that it is still somewhat hard to get a stolen gun. Certainly not impossible for a determined person with the right criminal connections, but harder then just buying one on the street corner.

Quote:
We can theorize about hypotheticals all day long, but magazine fed, semi-auto rifles and/or pistols seems to be the weapon of choice for spree killers. Whether or not they could be as effective with a pump action shotgun, single action revolver, bolt action rifle, or any other such non-ban item is immaterial, because these are not the weapons spree killers prefer. I expect the body count would have been lower with a weapon that has a slower rate of fire due to not being magazine fed. Spree killing would still be possible, but perhaps not as severe. It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.
Until we know exactly what weapons he used and where they were obtained, it's really pointless to making any speculations.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:08 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Nice use of nowism to had-wave away all the separatist and secular political terrorism of the 1970s and 1980s.
Two things here, first very little (if any) of that terrorism was anywhere near the massacres of dozens of people inspired directly by Islam we see on a weekly basis.

Yes, weekly. There was a broadly comparible attack by Islamic extremists carried out in India four weeks ago: 49 dead and 48 wounded.

https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...ns-718430.html

Second, unless you're an elf, 30 years should be long enough to be called "many years".

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Old 15th March 2019, 06:11 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How the weapon/s used were obtained will probably be the deciding factor. It worth noting that in the UK, after Hungerford, all semi-auto rifles except in .22 LR were banned. There are no cosmetic restrictions, so straight-pull L1A1s, AR-15s, etc. are legal, albeit expensive. In comparison, NZ putting tighter restrictions on MSSAs after Aramoana - and subsequently tweaking the definition - seems more like a PR move than actually addressing the issue.
The NZ Police keep a list of acceptable weapons and their category, it's downloadable from their site, so it is a bit more then just a PR move.

I would also point out that aside from family incidents (we have had a few mass shootings of family members), we haven't had a serious mass shooting since Aramoana until today, and today was a operation that took 2 years of meticulous planning and preparation.

I very much doubt that our gun laws were at fault here.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:20 AM   #318
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So at 49 deaths this equals the Featherston Riot where Guards shot and killed 48 Japanese POWs in 1943, with a New Zealand Solider also dying. If more are added to the tally, this will be our worse ever massacre.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:25 AM   #319
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Seems it could have been far worse, but when he started shooting at the Linwood mosque, one of the people there managed to jump on him from behind and grab the gun forcing him to run. Had that not happened, then far more then the 10 who were killed there would likely have died. The guy that grabbed him and wrestled the gun away is a bonafide hero.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:28 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the majority of the deaths occurred inside the mosque, which precludes driving around a mobile armory inside a car.
Nearly all shootings were inside the mosque. He shoots people on the sidewalk nearby both as he is on foot and also as he is driving away. He seemed to shoot at any visible human within a few blocks of the Al Noor mosque. Some may have had no relation to the mosque. He was standing outside the mosque shooting pedestrians a block away. Like a walking sniper.


Quote:
I haven't watched the video. Was the shooter carrying a bunch of rifles and switching off to avoid reloading while inside the mosque? That seems impractical compared to just using a magazine fed semi auto.
He walked into the mosque with a single rifle and many high capacity banana clips. He was carrying so many clips that he dropped at least one on the floor (later picking it up and loading it). He would rapidly reload the rifle with a fresh clip. No doubt he was practiced.

His station wagon was parked next to the mosque. It was filled with many more guns and ammo all waiting to be used. At one point in the massacre, he walks out and goes back to the car. He switches rifles getting a new one from the cargo area. It looks like the same kind of rifle. So he also gets more clips as well and then goes back into the mosque with a fresh gun and more clips. Now he starts being very methodical about examining the piles of bodies looking for the still living which he then shoots multiple times. He did not want to leave a single person alive.
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