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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 12th May 2019, 02:53 PM   #1921
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So if she knows that rape requires a penis (and a woman being charged as an accessory to something done with someone else's penis isn't exactly common), then where is the 10% number coming from? Who are these women and what exactly are they doing?
This is not actually true depending on where you live
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:06 PM   #1922
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...<snip>
When you're a bloke, the whole world is a toilet - who needs a bathroom?
'No.2's' present exactly the same challenge for either sex.
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:11 PM   #1923
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is not actually true depending on where you live

Yes, but the person being quoted was specifically talking about England. Who are her her 10% of perpetrators and what are they doing?
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:12 PM   #1924
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So if she knows that rape requires a penis (and a woman being charged as an accessory to something done with someone else's penis isn't exactly common), then where is the 10% number coming from? Who are these women and what exactly are they doing?
She knows that being CHARGED with rape requires a penis. But if a woman comes to her rape crisis organisation and says she has been raped by a woman she probably doesn't say 'no you weren't, rape requires a penis' because that would be a horrible thing to say to a victim.

If you want to argue with her over the definition of rape then that's something between the two of you. If you insist on calling it sexual assault all well and good but I don't think that makes it any better.
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:13 PM   #1925
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Quote:
But if the solution to the present contretemps is that we come to an understanding that the proper place for people with penises is the men's room, and it doesn't matter whether these people are wearing a dress or not, we are asking the men to welcome their transwoman brothers into their space. They are expanding the definition of what it is to be male, not encroaching on the definition of female.

In the context of this solution then absolutely if a transman wants to use the ladies', if for some reason the "kind fiction" in the gents' isn't working out for him, he absolutely has that right. He is female. And we'll work it out.
Precisely.
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:19 PM   #1926
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
She knows that being CHARGED with rape requires a penis. But if a woman comes to her rape crisis organisation and says she has been raped by a woman she probably doesn't say 'no you weren't, rape requires a penis' because that would be a horrible thing to say to a victim.

If you want to argue with her over the definition of rape then that's something between the two of you. If you insist on calling it sexual assault all well and good but I don't think that makes it any better.

I agree there are things a woman can do to another woman that should absolutely be considered rape.

But, in the context of this thread, I'm really curious how many of these female-on-female rapes are actually transwoman-on-female or transwoman-on-transwoman?


Not, of course, that it makes rape even the slightest bit better. It should go without saying, but my years of experience on this forum says it probably doesn't.
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:40 PM   #1927
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis. It is actually impossible for a woman to commit rape.

Your sentences do not follow. Unless your first sentence is missing some qualifier that you thought was implied.

In other words, when a woman rapes a man there is penetration by a penis. The woman forces the man to unwillingly have an erection, then she forces it in by herself.

"In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis."

That is without a doubt "involving penetration by a penis".

Did you mean to say that English law states or implies: "In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis that must be physically attached to the person charged and the victim must be the one being penetrated."

(And the discussion was about women raping women, but your statement seemed to include women raping men as well.)
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:43 PM   #1928
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Can't we all just get along?
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:09 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Did you mean to say that English law states or implies...
If an Englishwoman managed to snooker an Englishman into sexual intercourse by passing herself off as his wife, when in fact she is his sister-in-law, would that particular form of nonconsenual sex have a name under English law?
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:35 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
(And the discussion was about women raping women, but your statement seemed to include women raping men as well.)
Your nitpick is correct, but given that it has no bearing on women raping women it seems like a complete tangent.

That said, Archie's response, that the 10% figure isn't crime statistics and thus isn't based on that particular definition of rape seems entirely valid.

Not having read his link I have no comment on how accurate that 10% figure is, only on the arguments made so far in this thread.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:55 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Are you actually female? I've lost track of this. Women don't have a huge problem with other women seeing them in a state of undress. It's not about the sexuality of the person, it's about the sex of their body. They do have a problem with men seeing them undressed and it's entirely irrelevant whether the man is straight, gay or bi, and even if he's heroically looking away. And it's absolutely irrelevant if he's wearing a dress and makeup and calling himself Susan, he still has a male body.

This is an article that may go some way to explaining this fairly visceral reaction. A Girl's Place In The World
Is there a why in any of that?

my swimming pool changing rooms around 1987'ish were unisex, girls n guys sharing cubicles if they wanted.

You seem to be ok with females ogling your body, but any male, regardless of ogling potential is a no no.
Why?

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Old 12th May 2019, 06:25 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay; so a reasonable argument toward her being able to choose for herself where she's comfortable.

But not a word about why she should not be welcomed in the women's, by the other women.
I'd be fine with trans women being welcomed in women's bathrooms, but if women want to deny them that, I'll just stay well out of the way.

I wouldn't want to be guilty of trying to mansplain why women should let them.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
'No.2's' present exactly the same challenge for either sex.
Not really, no.

I've met dozens of women who will not use a petrol station or public park toilet.

Never met one bloke who gave a **** about where he does a ****.

If you need to go, there's always somewhere a bloke can go, but it seems that women are a little more fussy.

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Can't we all just get along?
Haha!

In these discussions, I'm always reminded of 5 & 6-year-olds. As swimming is part of the curriculum in NZ, when it's time to change for swimming, the kids all just get changed in the class; boy, girl, intersex, whatever: none of them give a damn and don't take any notice of the other kids' genitalia.

Then parents start teaching them that those bits have rude names and must be hidden at all costs.

Adult humans could learn a lot from kids - they are pretty well colour-blind on skin colour as well, at that age.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:05 PM   #1933
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
In these discussions, I'm always reminded of 5 & 6-year-olds. As swimming is part of the curriculum in NZ, when it's time to change for swimming, the kids all just get changed in the class; boy, girl, intersex, whatever: none of them give a damn and don't take any notice of the other kids' genitalia.

Really? And it has been this way for a long time? I would google it, but I'm not sure what terms to google, and I'd be afraid that along the way I might trip some pedophile triggers in the browser observers.


I'm sure that the 5 and 6 year olds indeed don't care, but in America, the parents would not allow it. I think they would justify forbidding it on the grounds that they are teaching them how to behave as adults. I think you would agree that that is exactly what they were doing, but would say they were teaching the wrong way.


In my opinion, as the kids got older, they would gravitate toward "modesty" even without being told by adults that they ought to. However, I have no way of knowing if that is true, or just a hunch, nor would I have any way of proving it either way.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:25 PM   #1934
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
But not a word about why she should not be welcomed in the women's, by the other women.
If a beardy bloke walks into the women's loo, are you going to quiz him about his genitals? If so, I guess that's fine. Seems awkward, but whatevs.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:09 AM   #1935
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I agree there are things a woman can do to another woman that should absolutely be considered rape.

But, in the context of this thread, I'm really curious how many of these female-on-female rapes are actually transwoman-on-female or transwoman-on-transwoman?
In the context of the article I would say none, but it isn't made explicit that they are talking only about ciswomen. It is certainly implied though, as I think if tranwomen were a significant part of the 10% they would have mentioned it given the content of the article.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:12 AM   #1936
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Your sentences do not follow. Unless your first sentence is missing some qualifier that you thought was implied.

In other words, when a woman rapes a man there is penetration by a penis. The woman forces the man to unwillingly have an erection, then she forces it in by herself.

"In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis."

That is without a doubt "involving penetration by a penis".

Did you mean to say that English law states or implies: "In English law rape must involve penetration by a penis that must be physically attached to the person charged and the victim must be the one being penetrated."

(And the discussion was about women raping women, but your statement seemed to include women raping men as well.)
Rape requires penetration by the rapist in law.

Actually, until not too long ago a man could only rape a woman. Male on male rape was only added later. A woman cannot technically commit rape on a man or a woman according to law. The only way a woman can be charged with rape is by participating in the act while a man penetrates someone

I think if you use another part of your anatomy it's assault by penetration and if there is no penetration then it's sexual assault.

I wasn't aware someone could be charged with rape for participating in the act either but it seems so.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:31 AM   #1937
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If an Englishwoman managed to snooker an Englishman into sexual intercourse by passing herself off as his wife, when in fact she is his sister-in-law, would that particular form of nonconsenual sex have a name under English law?
If you can prove it ......... Good luck with that....

The crime is "Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent"
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:34 AM   #1938
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Actually even that law says "He" all over it, so you might be a bit screwed (pardon the pun)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...n/4/2009-11-12

Quote:
Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally causes another person (B) to engage in an activity,
(b)the activity is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to engaging in the activity, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section, if the activity caused involved—
(a)penetration of B’s anus or vagina,
(b)penetration of B’s mouth with a person’s penis,
(c)penetration of a person’s anus or vagina with a part of B’s body or by B with anything else, or
(d)penetration of a person’s mouth with B’s penis,is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.
(5)Unless subsection (4) applies, a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:19 AM   #1939
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I'm currently listening to a podcast about the debate within feminism over this issue.

For Women Only (Part 1)

(Part 2)
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:21 AM   #1940
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Can't we all just get along?
No, shut up!













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Old 13th May 2019, 09:59 AM   #1941
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Champion powerlifter is stripped of titles because she was 'still a man' when she won the female records

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
A power lifter who transitioned from a male to a female has been stripped of their world titles after the sport's governing body in the US said the competitor was a man.

Mary Gregory, from Virginia, set world records in the women's squat, bench press, and deadlift, and had earned a 'Masters total world record' for her powerlifting scores across the board last month.

But now, RAW Powerlifting Federation - the same body she thanked after winning - stripped Gregory of her titles, saying that the lifter 'was actually a male' when competing.

On Friday Federation president Paul Bossi said in a statement to media: 'It was revealed that this female lifter was actually a male in the process of becoming a Transgender female...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-man-won.html
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Old 13th May 2019, 10:45 AM   #1942
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Quote:
A power lifter who transitioned from a male to a female has been stripped of their world titles after the sport's governing body in the US said the competitor was a man.
She may be a man, but she lifts sumo, so she's still a pussy.
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Old 13th May 2019, 10:48 AM   #1943
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Champion powerlifter is stripped of titles because she was 'still a man' when she won the female records



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-man-won.html
How much of a transition are we even talking about, here?
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:11 PM   #1944
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Really? And it has been this way for a long time? I would google it, but I'm not sure what terms to google, and I'd be afraid that along the way I might trip some pedophile triggers in the browser observers.
Haha! Yeah, having the FBI busting your door down while you try to explain it was "research".

Yes, really, and it's been going on for at least the past 55 years.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm sure that the 5 and 6 year olds indeed don't care, but in America, the parents would not allow it.
Just one of the myriad things wrong with America.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think they would justify forbidding it on the grounds that they are teaching them how to behave as adults. I think you would agree that that is exactly what they were doing, but would say they were teaching the wrong way.
No, on both counts.

I don't think there's anything about teaching kids how to behave as adults, it's just a continuation of little kids who take no notice of gender. I've seen a few daycares and I have yet to find one with doors on bathrooms. Kids don't even notice unless they're told to.

And I certainly don't think it's a wrong way to teach whatever lesson they get from it. The bad lessons are the ones instilled - mostly by parents - that genitalia is any different to toes or kidneys.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In my opinion, as the kids got older, they would gravitate toward "modesty" even without being told by adults that they ought to. However, I have no way of knowing if that is true, or just a hunch, nor would I have any way of proving it either way.
That goes to what I was saying a page ago, kids will certainly develop modesty, but only because of the culture we live in.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If a beardy bloke walks into the women's loo, are you going to quiz him about his genitals? If so, I guess that's fine. Seems awkward, but whatevs.
You'd feel a bit sorry for the 100% biological and psychological female, Harnaam Kaur, if that's where it goes.

Mind you, if you can put up with people telling you to burn in hell for having a beard, I imagine being asked to prove her credentials in a women's toilet is fairly mild.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:21 PM   #1945
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Actually, if she's the one I've watched a YouTube video of, she's quite obviously female if you simply screen out the beard. The voice in particular.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:27 PM   #1946
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Actually, if she's the one I've watched a YouTube video of, she's quite obviously female if you simply screen out the beard. The voice in particular.
Presumably then, you would have no issue with sharing the same facilities with them?
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:28 PM   #1947
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How much of a transition are we even talking about, here?

He seemed to be doing it as a wind-up, for laughs, but it makes a serious point. The whole self-ID thing means that people have to be taken at their word and no surgery and no hormones are required.

That latter isn't true for elite-level sport, of course, at least at the moment, but the trans lobby is trying to change that too. Rachel McKinnon, who seems to be completely demented, claims that testosterone confers no athletic advantage anyway and he should be allowed to compete as he is, without doing anything to damage his lady body's natural potential. (And if you see a contradiction there, yes the rest of us see it too.) You see, because he has a lady brain, that makes his body female too, so the testicles and the penis and the testosterone should naturally compete in the women's events.

Given the virtual 100% strike rate of authorities in giving in to the demands of the trans lobby to date, I wouldn't die of shock if he gets his way. Schoolboys are already allowed to compete in the girls' events without taking any medication and that might be the case at college level too I'm not sure.

So Mr Power Lifter might just be a wee bit ahead of his time.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:39 PM   #1948
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Champion powerlifter is stripped of titles because she was 'still a man' when she won the female records



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-man-won.html
Good for them. Even if Gregory removed his junk before competing, there would still be a huge advantage from growing up male.
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:46 AM   #1949
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I'm not sure they intend to keep him out indefinitely though, more's the pity. There's way too much ignoring of the fact that going through male puberty (or indeed having taken testosterone at some point in the past) confers huge advantages.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:47 AM   #1950
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The whole self-ID thing means that people have to be taken at their word and no surgery and no hormones are required.
You keep saying these things, but I don't think they are true as you state them.

I do not believe a GRC currently requires surgery or hormones. It requires having lived as a woman for 2 years and a diagnosis from a medical professional. Self-ID simply means that the medical diagnosis is no longer required to be legally recognised as the other gender.

I am open to being shown otherwise but I would hope you are also open to reconsidering your own statements. There is a lot of nonsense talked about self-ID and the objections to it are often confused with other complaints.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:38 AM   #1951
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You keep saying these things, but I don't think they are true as you state them.

I do not believe a GRC currently requires surgery or hormones. It requires having lived as a woman for 2 years and a diagnosis from a medical professional. Self-ID simply means that the medical diagnosis is no longer required to be legally recognised as the other gender.

I am open to being shown otherwise but I would hope you are also open to reconsidering your own statements. There is a lot of nonsense talked about self-ID and the objections to it are often confused with other complaints.
Let's say someone self-identifies as a different gender than their biological sex, and goes to a professional (doctor, psychologist, whatever). Are there any professionals who are going to say, no, your self-identification is wrong? On what grounds would they make such a diagnosis?

Because it seems to me like that wouldn't happen, that there aren't really accepted grounds for a medical professional to reject a self-ID. It seems to me like getting a medical diagnosis is a mere formality, and even if one professional did refuse to confirm a self-diagnosis, you could find another who wouldn't.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:10 AM   #1952
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm currently listening to a podcast about the debate within feminism over this issue.
Good intro to the topic, but treating gender as a metaphysical problem doesn't really help solve anything. The host / moderator doesn't take very seriously the notion that biological sex (what some of the interviewees call assignment) may well be an important factor in discrimination.

ETA: Rolfe won't at all enjoy the conclusion.
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Last edited by d4m10n; 14th May 2019 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:30 AM   #1953
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Right now there seems to be a live and let live attitude over the entire subject.

Pushing for full rights in whatever one declares isn't going to hold well everywhere. San Fran or NY city might allow right to declare over time but dare one push that onto a small town in rural Ohio or for that matter most of the bible belt?

It's a sticky wicket subject at best and not pushing for laws or special exceptions will get them further into society before the pushback starts.

Drug laws among other things are state laws, a gram of weed in CA is ok but cross into Nevada and get caught with it. Oops...

Get used to using the chosen gender toilets at home in Tolerant City and watch reactions trying that in right wing small city Texas.... It might not be appreciated.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:57 AM   #1954
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Is there a why in any of that?

my swimming pool changing rooms around 1987'ish were unisex, girls n guys sharing cubicles if they wanted.

You seem to be ok with females ogling your body, but any male, regardless of ogling potential is a no no.
Why?
I’m not entirely sure why you think this is something that has to be justified by some rational argument. If women are uncomfortable with undressing in front of biological males, then that’s it as far as I’m concerned.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:51 PM   #1955
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
If white women are uncomfortable with undressing in front of biological males black women, then that’s it as far as I’m concerned.
Does that still work?
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:44 PM   #1956
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The entire notion that it's all "kids these days, just want attention" is because of the Nazis. Back in the 30s they burned all the research from any institution that didn't match their ideals. That included all sexuality research. It's not 'today's youth' it's your great grandfather and the generations preceding.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:50 PM   #1957
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The entire notion that it's all "kids these days, just want attention" is because of the Nazis. Back in the 30s they burned all the research from any institution that didn't match their ideals. That included all sexuality research. It's not 'today's youth' it's your great grandfather and the generations preceding.
This feels amazingly off-topic, for an English language forum. We have scientists in the Anglophone world, too.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:23 PM   #1958
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And yet, even in this thread there is sentiment that trans is very recent and wasn't observed before this generation. Did you know that Nazis shared values with many Anglophone countries, and they also burned literature? The famous Kinsey himself got in serious trouble for his research.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:38 PM   #1959
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
And yet, even in this thread there is sentiment that trans is very recent and wasn't observed before this generation. Did you know that Nazis shared values with many Anglophone countries, and they also burned literature? The famous Kinsey himself got in serious trouble for his research.
There are any number of possible explanations for the recency of any given global social phenomenon. European fascists are just one, and not a very likely one.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:47 PM   #1960
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Not when their views were shared by many other countries? Remember that their policy of eugenics was also popular in the US, and it was even illegal at one time to badmouth the Nazis. Couple those views with the strong influence of Christians, particularly Evangelical Christians, on the governing of the US, and is it any surprise that information was suppressed or not gathered on unsanctioned 'alternate lifestyles' and that even the existence of individuals would be denied?

Nazis and Evangelicals succeeded in driving trans people so far into the closet that modern bigots are comfortable with claiming that no one they knew of growing up felt like kids these days do, and they're all lying for attention now.
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