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Old 12th May 2019, 03:33 PM   #81
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure. And certainly some of the animosity towards regions which are predominantly Muslim is motivated by bigotry. But the fact that a bunch of morons said a fictional city should be bombed doesn't indicate that they want to bomb a Muslim city because it's a Muslim city, but because they assumed that it was a city in a region in which there is an ongoing conflict involving the US and they are in favor of aggressive means in that conflict.

Nothing I said is intended to imply that little or no bigotry was involved in the poll responses, but that one can misread the responses to exaggerate the depth of the bigotry.

We have plenty of other evidence for that, however.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The bombing Agrabah poll demonstrated similar ignorance. Subjects were asked about bombing a city they didn't recognize or misidentified. They assumed that the question was relevant to news of the day and had a predisposition in favor of military actions in the region and so said (presuming it was a real debate) that they were in favor of bombing the fictional city.

Glib, unthinking and ignorant, sure. Motivated by a willingness to attack Muslims because they are Muslim? Not so much. If you asked the same question, substituting Riyadh for Agrabah, you'd get the same answer. If you put in the question that Riyadh is the Saudi capital, the number in favor of bombing the city would drop considerably. (Sadly, not to zero, I'd reckon.)

These polls show geographic ignorance of Americans and their willingness to defer to the government, but not too much more.
I really don't understand this; it sounds like you're saying "They don't want to attack Agrabah just because it sounds Muslim, after all, they'd probably do the same for Riyadh, too".

But Riyadh is Muslim, too, so I fail to see how that even comes close to supporting your point.
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Old 12th May 2019, 04:56 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
We have plenty of other evidence for that, however.







I really don't understand this; it sounds like you're saying "They don't want to attack Agrabah just because it sounds Muslim, after all, they'd probably do the same for Riyadh, too".



But Riyadh is Muslim, too, so I fail to see how that even comes close to supporting your point.
I'd expect a similar result if a poll subbed in a South Vietnamese city name during that war. It's a valid point about geographic ignorance among us US Americans, and isn't accounted for in the polling breakdown. Hell... I'd fall for it if we start naming the " 'stans".
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:58 PM   #83
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"All respondents in my account"

What does that mean?

I wouldn't brag too much about the 60% of Democrats who voted No or Not Sure compared to the 83% of Republicans. Failing grades for both!

I've also seen some videos by Veritas too that I take with an equal grain of salt.
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Old 12th May 2019, 08:17 PM   #84
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There's a saying out here that most Americans learn geography only by invading or bombing a country. The place names get on the nightly TV news.
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:59 PM   #85
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American Numerals were good enough for Jesus; they're good enough for me.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:25 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure. And certainly some of the animosity towards regions which are predominantly Muslim is motivated by bigotry. But the fact that a bunch of morons said a fictional city should be bombed doesn't indicate that they want to bomb a Muslim city because it's a Muslim city, but because they assumed that it was a city in a region in which there is an ongoing conflict involving the US and they are in favor of aggressive means in that conflict.

Nothing I said is intended to imply that little or no bigotry was involved in the poll responses, but that one can misread the responses to exaggerate the depth of the bigotry.

Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't make it any less scary that they are so eager to bomb [hilite]"a city in a region in which there is an ongoing conflict involving the US"[/i] - without knowing anything at all about the alleged conflict or the alleged city. That they might not be anti-Muslims but 'merely' U.S. American patriots doesn't make it better. I don't think that one of those groups is more bigoted than the other.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:24 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
We have plenty of other evidence for that, however.



I really don't understand this; it sounds like you're saying "They don't want to attack Agrabah just because it sounds Muslim, after all, they'd probably do the same for Riyadh, too".

But Riyadh is Muslim, too, so I fail to see how that even comes close to supporting your point.
My point was supposed to be supported by the following line, which said that if you made clear in the question that Riyadh is Saudi, then few would say it should be bombed even though they know that Saudi Arabia is predominantly Muslim.

The ignorance shown in the poll results is this: They know that the US is involved in conflict in the Middle East and the city of Agrabah sounds like it could be part of that conflict. They are being asked about whether it ought to be bombed or not, so presume that the bombing of Agrabah is an actual topic in the news today. They support their nation's military, so they say yes to bombing.

If you were to say that Jakarta is the capital of Indonesia and Indonesia is a Muslim-majority nation and then ask whether we should bomb Jakarta, those supporting the bombing would be far fewer than 30% (though not as near to zero as one would hope). Thus, it is not merely bigotry against Islam which explains these poll results (though I do expect that bigotry explains a lot of these results).

The whole idea of learning something deep about Americans by asking about bombing Agrabah is asinine. It's a nice opportunity for a guffaw, but it does not show anything deep about political views or the depth of bigotry against Islam. There has to be a better, more direct way to measure that, one would hope.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't make it any less scary that they are so eager to bomb [hilite]"a city in a region in which there is an ongoing conflict involving the US"[/i] - without knowing anything at all about the alleged conflict or the alleged city. That they might not be anti-Muslims but 'merely' U.S. American patriots doesn't make it better. I don't think that one of those groups is more bigoted than the other.
Sure, that's troubling.

But, honestly, think of the average American. Woefully uninformed about history, geography and current events. He's asked about whether the US ought to bomb Agrabah. He defers to supporting his nation's policy, presuming that this is in fact a policy proposal, and says yes.

He doesn't know about the conflict, doesn't care much, isn't in much of a position to make a difference. He's going about his life with no more grave error than assuming that his government knows more or less what it's doing, so he says "Yep, bomb Agrabah."

I can't think that's as bad as Anti-Islamic bigotry. Sure, it would be nice if folks knew what was going on in the world or refuse to answer polls on topics about which they are uninformed.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:52 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
My point was supposed to be supported by the following line, which said that if you made clear in the question that Riyadh is Saudi, then few would say it should be bombed even though they know that Saudi Arabia is predominantly Muslim.

The ignorance shown in the poll results is this: They know that the US is involved in conflict in the Middle East and the city of Agrabah sounds like it could be part of that conflict. They are being asked about whether it ought to be bombed or not, so presume that the bombing of Agrabah is an actual topic in the news today. They support their nation's military, so they say yes to bombing.

If you were to say that Jakarta is the capital of Indonesia and Indonesia is a Muslim-majority nation and then ask whether we should bomb Jakarta, those supporting the bombing would be far fewer than 30% (though not as near to zero as one would hope). Thus, it is not merely bigotry against Islam which explains these poll results (though I do expect that bigotry explains a lot of these results).

The whole idea of learning something deep about Americans by asking about bombing Agrabah is asinine. It's a nice opportunity for a guffaw, but it does not show anything deep about political views or the depth of bigotry against Islam. There has to be a better, more direct way to measure that, one would hope.
Do you have a cite for polls showing that the number that support bombing Jakarta or Riyadh is less than the number for Agrabah? Honestly, I think you are underestimating the number that would support bombing Riyadh, and maybe Jakarta, too. I can't prove this, but I don't think you can prove your claim, either.
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:47 AM   #90
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I sometimes post at a forum where wristwatches are discussed. Even there, discussion of "arabic numerals" occasionally throws someone completely off on a tangent.
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Old 13th May 2019, 03:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't make it any less scary that they are so eager to bomb [hilite]"a city in a region in which there is an ongoing conflict involving the US"[/i] - without knowing anything at all about the alleged conflict or the alleged city. That they might not be anti-Muslims but 'merely' U.S. American patriots doesn't make it better. I don't think that one of those groups is more bigoted than the other.
It's called demand characteristics. People replying "yes" to stupid survey questions is common and to be expected. It has nothing to do with the stupid crap you just said, or any of your other strange obsessions.
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:42 PM   #92
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Well, it is fairly well proven that we can get a certain percentage of the population to say "yes" to any question. But is it 30%?
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Old 13th May 2019, 09:39 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think you buried the lead, Travis.
After all, Americans are notoriously poor at distinguishing between fictional and real places.



You think the statistic you cited is scarier than an alleged 26% of Republicans thinking that Islam should be illegal in the United States? W.T.F.?
No worries , there's still a Constitution thingie around here somewhere...……….
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Old 13th May 2019, 10:07 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well, it is fairly well proven that we can get a certain percentage of the population to say "yes" to any question. But is it 30%?
Depends how the question is phrased. Depends on how the survey administrator comes across. Depends on lots of things. It's called Demand Characteristic. (I'm not going to provide a link you can wikipedia it or dann can hyperlink it as he's fond of doing.) Point is none of these stupid surveys say anything about "US American patriots," or "anti-Islam bigotry," or any other stupid **** that these Euroboomers won't shut up about.

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Old 13th May 2019, 10:46 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well, it is fairly well proven that we can get a certain percentage of the population to say "yes" to any question. But is it 30%?

What Baylor is trying to say is that if only the poll had phrased the question differently, so many of his fellow U.S. American patriots probably wouldn't have answered that Agrabah should be bombed. I'm with him on that one. The question should have been:

Do you think that the USA should bomb Agrabah, which is not a real city and doesn't exist anywhere in the real world but only appears in the Disney cartoon Aladdin?

In that case, many Trump voters wouldn't support the bombing of Agrabah.
However, the problem with phrasing the question in this way is that Trump himself would still want to go ahead and do it. He would read until the comma (or have somebody read it for him), say tldr to the rest, sign it instead of marking the "yes" choice with an X, and call Tucker Carlson and Hannity to tell them the good news.
And in a worst case scenario, he might go ahead and bomb the **** out of Taj Mahal.
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Old 13th May 2019, 11:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What Baylor is trying to say is that if only the poll had phrased the question differently, so many of his fellow U.S. American patriots probably wouldn't have answered that Agrabah should be bombed. I'm with him on that one. The question should have been:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying these polls are stupid and have no validity due to demand characteristic, among other things, and the people who put stock in these stupid polls are looking to affirm their strange obsessions.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:38 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Ever heard of Agrabah? If you ever watched the Disney animated film Aladdin you have. That was where it was set. So, yes, it is a fictional city in an animated film.

So maybe it is understandable that 87% of Republican voters didn't know what or where the city was. What is disturbing is that 30% of them said they supported bombing it anyways! And nearly half of Trump supporters were definitely in favor of throwing down munitions on flying carpets.


http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...ntains-bi.html
Do you know of a better way to get rid of Jafar?
I don't buy the tricking him into the lamp story.

ETA: 28% of democrats aged 18-45 were also in favor of bombing Agrabah. You can use polls results to find almost any stupid result you want.
https://www.publicpolicypolling.com/...nal_121715.pdf
page 102

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Old 14th May 2019, 05:57 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Polls are always accurate.


Hillary in a landslide!
I see you've not spent the last 2.5 years learning about what polls actually are. You tought they were equivalent to crystal balls.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:30 PM   #99
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Calling standard numbers "Arabic numerals," is not something many people would get. It's very much like calling water, "dihydrogen monoxide," in order to do one of those "Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide!" things that often make the rounds on social media. My aunt posted one of those, warning how DHMO had been found in her city's water system and she was actually concerned.

Let's get someone to do a poll asking if dihydrogen monoxide should be banned from city water supplies and I'm sure we smart people will all have something to laugh at, Democrat or Republican.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:42 PM   #100
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I wonder how many polled Democrats think the US should lift its sanctions on Jafar, and allow him to resume his peaceful nuclear power generation research program?
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:54 PM   #101
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But they need those nukes because of their ongoing cold war with Queen Elsa.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:58 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
But they need those nukes because of their ongoing cold war with Queen Elsa.
Now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if 30% of Democrats conflated nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons.

At least.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:20 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It's called demand characteristics. People replying "yes" to stupid survey questions is common and to be expected. It has nothing to do with the stupid crap you just said, or any of your other strange obsessions.
It's fine to do that if you want to set a group up to be a hated other. I wish the people who did the survey had asked if the respondents were Trump supporters. This does make Republicans who are mostly Trump supporters look stupid so it's fine.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:47 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Calling standard numbers "Arabic numerals," is not something many people would get. It's very much like calling water, "dihydrogen monoxide," in order to do one of those "Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide!" things that often make the rounds on social media. My aunt posted one of those, warning how DHMO had been found in her city's water system and she was actually concerned.

Let's get someone to do a poll asking if dihydrogen monoxide should be banned from city water supplies and I'm sure we smart people will all have something to laugh at, Democrat or Republican.
As long as we're talking about misused terms, you mean "numerals" not "numbers".

Sorry, I know this is a tedious correction, but in this context I just couldn't help myself.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:04 AM   #105
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Jimmy Kimmel asked people if Homo Sapiens should be saved. Of course there would be people who have no idea what Homo Sapiens is. But imho amount of people who know, will understand it's a joke, and will respond with a joke, is much greater. I certainly can't see myself respond in serious manner.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:28 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's fine to do that if you want to set a group up to be a hated other. I wish the people who did the survey had asked if the respondents were Trump supporters. This does make Republicans who are mostly Trump supporters look stupid so it's fine.
"Look stupid??!! No it verifies once again that they are.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #107
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Looks like 100% of Republicans wouldn't object to Trump attacking Iran.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:46 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if 30% of Democrats conflated nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons.

At least.
At least, even if true. I am definitely not one of them - I would hope no one at a high level has that misconception.

In the late '50s/early '60s Revell made a plastic model kit of a nuclear reactor
that was quite fun to build - and a couple of years later a gentleman who had experience in them and had been a designer of many of the parts spoke to our physics and Chen classes. He noted that for certain critical parts they labeled them as Cu but when copper was actually involved it was labled Cu (subscript htg - for honest to god). Fun guy and convinced me to make Chemistry/Physics my double minor.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:49 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Looks like 100% of Republicans wouldn't object to Trump attacking Iran.
As long as he tries it all on his own (no assistance from any other people) I am fine with it and even encourage it!!
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
As long as he tries it all on his own (no assistance from any other people) I am fine with it and even encourage it!!
he's talking about 120,000 troops (or much more) and has two carrier groups in the region.
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Old 15th May 2019, 10:44 AM   #111
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It's troubling that so many participants here find the trick question more interesting/concerning than the fact that such a high percentage of Americans advocate bombing any city.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:14 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's troubling that so many participants here find the trick question more interesting/concerning than the fact that such a high percentage of Americans advocate bombing any city.
I know right. Why aren't people ignoring flawed methodology of stupid and pointless surveys when they could be feigning hysteria? It's not like this place is for skeptics or anything.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:19 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's fine to do that if you want to set a group up to be a hated other. I wish the people who did the survey had asked if the respondents were Trump supporters. This does make Republicans who are mostly Trump supporters look stupid so it's fine.
Sounds like you've got some weird hang-ups.
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Old 15th May 2019, 02:17 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sounds like you've got some weird hang-ups.
No, I just approach the problem of Trump without any sense of morality, integrity or decency. If you can make Trump supporters a hated other, people will be less likely to want to be Trump supporters. Paint Trump supporters, however unfairly, as stupid because of this poll is good for the nation.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
he's talking about 120,000 troops (or much more) and has two carrier groups in the region.
Naaaah, that's a waste of good lives. Let trumpf do it on his own.
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:01 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sounds like you've got some weird hang-ups.
Would not have thought being ignorant and recognized as such would make people not the ignorant some concerned about them having any control of the country. I certainly feel that way. It is why I loathe trumpf. Pence only troubles me due to being too religious.
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Old 18th May 2019, 10:59 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
At least, even if true. I am definitely not one of them - I would hope no one at a high level has that misconception.

In the late '50s/early '60s Revell made a plastic model kit of a nuclear reactor
that was quite fun to build - and a couple of years later a gentleman who had experience in them and had been a designer of many of the parts spoke to our physics and Chen classes. He noted that for certain critical parts they labeled them as Cu but when copper was actually involved it was labled Cu (subscript htg - for honest to god). Fun guy and convinced me to make Chemistry/Physics my double minor.
Almost forgot!!! In the full student body assembly he mentioned other uses of radiation including radiating food products to kill the bacteria. Several years later when that became published in the news, idiots feared they would be radiated fer sher and die or glow at night. Oddly, that never happened. Yet we still have idiots who fear it. And anti-vaxxers* who wish, apparently, to kill others including their own children and keep dangerous diseases out there and active.


* aka ******** and idiots
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Old 18th May 2019, 11:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Naaaah, that's a waste of good lives. Let trumpf do it on his own.
And, on another note, I wonder vaguely what passes for philosophy/philosophers nowadays...…………………..
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