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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 14th May 2019, 12:00 PM   #1601
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It is certainly better to fight for peace and world democracy than to fight for an illegally invading power.
But the blue helmets don't fight. Not for peace, not for democracy, not even to stop genocide. So how can they possibly succeed at a mission that requires them to fight?
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:02 PM   #1602
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think this should be good enough to make peace
It's not. The right of return is a dealbreaker. And Hamas knows this, it's not a secret.
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:25 PM   #1603
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think that Israel should stop all forms of persecution against Palestinians, including Palestinians "to the east", in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. I believe what happens in the West Bank fuels hate towards Israel too, and probably has an influence in Gaza.

If Israel finally decided to comply with all its international obligations (U.N. Security Council Resolutions) - this is very far from being the case now, with constant settlement expansion - and if rocket attacks continued, I think Israel should deal with this by appealing to international help, rather than using its own defense forces. Blue Helmets should go in there, and do the necessary policing, look for all rockets and rocket factory (if dialogue with local Palestinian authorities proves fruitless). I see no reason to tolerate any kind of insecurity for law-abiding citizens, whether Jews, Arabs, Muslim, Atheists, or anything.
So Israel should put it's defense into the hands of an organization that not so long ago proclaimed "Zionism Is A Form Of Racism" and had shown constant hostility to Isreal? Brilliant.
Once again, what reality are you living I?
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:51 PM   #1604
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So Israel should put it's defense into the hands of an organization that not so long ago proclaimed "Zionism Is A Form Of Racism" and had shown constant hostility to Isreal? Brilliant.

Once again, what reality are you living I?
An anti Semitic reality. Which is to say, reality.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:59 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So Israel should put it's defense into the hands of an organization that not so long ago proclaimed "Zionism Is A Form Of Racism" and had shown constant hostility to Isreal? Brilliant.
Once again, what reality are you living I?
This was a rather stupid resolution of the U.N. General Assembly (in my opinion), but it was later revoked with a strong majority, in a move that was not hostile to Israel.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...esolution_3379
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:22 PM   #1606
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But the blue helmets don't fight. Not for peace, not for democracy, not even to stop genocide. So how can they possibly succeed at a mission that requires them to fight?
I am not aware of any rule which would forbid Blue Helmets to fight, if this is really necessary, to defend themselves, they have weapons.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not. The right of return is a dealbreaker. And Hamas knows this, it's not a secret.
The so-called Palestinian right of return (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ght_of_return/) is not realistic and is not acceptable to Israel. But Israel does not really have to sign a peace treaty with Hamas, which is a political organization, not a State. It just has to comply with U.N. Security Council Resolutions, which are in principle mandatory (i.e. leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem), and lift the Gaza blockade, for obvious humanitarian reasons.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:14 AM   #1607
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am not aware of any rule which would forbid Blue Helmets to fight, if this is really necessary, to defend themselves, they have weapons.
There is no such rule. But they still never fight. They don't have to defend themselves because nobody bothers to attack them, because they know they can kill their victims without interference from the blue helmets. Because the blue helmets won't fight to defend anyone else. Making rules won't change that.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:25 AM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am not aware of any rule which would forbid Blue Helmets to fight, if this is really necessary, to defend themselves, they have weapons.
The problem is that they're assumed to be fighting in defense of others, but they don't actually do that. There's no rule that requires them to do that. And because they don't want to do that, they will never make such a rule.
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:06 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am not aware of any rule which would forbid Blue Helmets to fight, if this is really necessary, to defend themselves, they have weapons.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There is no such rule. But they still never fight. They don't have to defend themselves because nobody bothers to attack them, because they know they can kill their victims without interference from the blue helmets. Because the blue helmets won't fight to defend anyone else. Making rules won't change that.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem is that they're assumed to be fighting in defense of others, but they don't actually do that. There's no rule that requires them to do that. And because they don't want to do that, they will never make such a rule.
Yes, the Blue Helmets, the U.N. Peacekeepers are not really a fighting force in the usual sense, they have to remain as neutral as possible. But still, I see no reason why they could not look for rockets and rocket factories in Gaza, this would be very much in line with their mission of "keeping peace".

Quote:
Peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas and assist ex-combatants in implementing the peace agreements they may have signed. Such assistance comes in many forms, including confidence-building measures, power-sharing arrangements, electoral support, strengthening the rule of law, and economic and social development. Accordingly, UN peacekeepers (often referred to as Blue Berets or Blue Helmets because of their light blue berets or helmets) can include soldiers, police officers, and civilian personnel.
(Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._peacekeeping/)

Of course, in order to give such a mission full legitimacy, Israel would need to (seriously) stop all kinds of persecutions against all Palestinians, evacuate occupied land, provide abundant water and electricity (hopefully some people from Qatar, the United Arab Emirates or elsewhere would foot the bill , like they have done in the past), allow full fishing and so on.
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:16 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, the Blue Helmets, the U.N. Peacekeepers are not really a fighting force in the usual sense, they have to remain as neutral as possible. But still, I see no reason why they could not look for rockets and rocket factories in Gaza, this would be very much in line with their mission of "keeping peace".


(Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._peacekeeping/)

Of course, in order to give such a mission full legitimacy, Israel would need to (seriously) stop all kinds of persecutions against all Palestinians, evacuate occupied land, provide abundant water and electricity (hopefully some people from Qatar, the United Arab Emirates or elsewhere would foot the bill , like they have done in the past), allow full fishing and so on.
You're describing an ideal situation.

The actual Blue Helmets don't act as you describe, and do not fulfill the mission that is nominally assigned to them.

How are they going to look for rockets in Gaza if Hamas doesn't want them to and they're not going to fight over it?
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:32 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're describing an ideal situation.

The actual Blue Helmets don't act as you describe, and do not fulfill the mission that is nominally assigned to them.

How are they going to look for rockets in Gaza if Hamas doesn't want them to and they're not going to fight over it?
The U.N. could use massive and overwhelming force, I suppose, but it would probably be better to try to cooperate (if possible) with the Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip (and the Palestinian Authority, and possibly other friendly Arab countries), after explaining well all the nice concessions that Israel has now made (hypothetically). Never assume that people are completely stupid unless you really have to.

Anyway, after the proper concessions by Israel, it is likely that rocket fire from Gaza would greatly decrease (or would perhaps stop completely).
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Old 15th May 2019, 12:40 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Anyway, after the proper concessions by Israel, it is likely that rocket fire from Gaza would greatly decrease (or would perhaps stop completely).
What are the proper concessions.

Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza. They did not impose sanctions or blockades at that time. Gaza was free to do what it wished. Israel only closed the border after it turned out that Gaza wished to increase rocket fire into Israel. Given that history, why should anyone believe your prediction?
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:00 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are the proper concessions.

Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza. They did not impose sanctions or blockades at that time. Gaza was free to do what it wished. Israel only closed the border after it turned out that Gaza wished to increase rocket fire into Israel. Given that history, why should anyone believe your prediction?
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What are the proper concessions.
On the Gaza side, lift the blockade and give Gaza people full control of their airspace and territorial waters. On the West Bank and East Jerusalem side, evacuate fully these occupied territories, which Israel has never done (since 1967).
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Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza. They did not impose sanctions or blockades at that time. Gaza was free to do what it wished. Israel only closed the border after it turned out that Gaza wished to increase rocket fire into Israel.
I think that things did not happen quite the way you describe. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, but it maintained control of Gaza's airspace and territorial waters. Then, after the takeover by Hamas in 2007, Israel and Egypt closed their border crossings with Gaza.
(reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_S...disengagement/)
And there were already Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza in 2001 (reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...cks_on_Israel/).
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:57 PM   #1614
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, the Blue Helmets, the U.N. Peacekeepers are not really a fighting force in the usual sense, they have to remain as neutral as possible. But still, I see no reason why they could not look for rockets and rocket factories in Gaza, this would be very much in line with their mission of "keeping peace".
If they try to find the rockets and rocket factories, they will find themselves in an urban guerilla war. They cannot remain neutral in order to do that, and they need to be a real fighting force in order to do that. Do you not recognize how the mission you want to give to them is destined to fail? Even by your own admission, they are not equipped to succeed.

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Of course, in order to give such a mission full legitimacy,
It doesn't matter how much legitimacy it has if it's just going to fail right out of the gate. Which it predictably will.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:04 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The U.N. could use massive and overwhelming force, I suppose
No, they couldn't. Even when the people they had to stop were only armed with machetes and they had machine guns, they didn't have the balls to use force to prevent a genocide. How do you think they will fare against people with machine guns, rockets, and bombs, who hide behind human shields?

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but it would probably be better to try to cooperate (if possible) with the Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip (and the Palestinian Authority, and possibly other friendly Arab countries),
Cooperate on what? The best way to drive the Jews into the sea?

Quote:
after explaining well all the nice concessions that Israel has now made (hypothetically). Never assume that people are completely stupid unless you really have to.
I don't think I have to assume anything. And I'll let you in on a little open secret: sometimes, when your enemy gives you something you want, that indicates weakness on their part, and an opportunity to strike at them. The last time Israel made significant concessions to the Palestinians, they got attacked in return.

Quote:
Anyway, after the proper concessions by Israel, it is likely that rocket fire from Gaza would greatly decrease (or would perhaps stop completely).
History has already proven you wrong. The Israeli withdrawl from Gaza produced an increase in rocket attacks, not a decrease.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:28 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If they try to find the rockets and rocket factories, they will find themselves in an urban guerilla war. They cannot remain neutral in order to do that, and they need to be a real fighting force in order to do that. Do you not recognize how the mission you want to give to them is destined to fail? Even by your own admission, they are not equipped to succeed.



It doesn't matter how much legitimacy it has if it's just going to fail right out of the gate. Which it predictably will.
Note (to avoid a possible misunderstanding) that I am not recommending sending Blue Helmets to Gaza right now, to try to do Israel's "work", as a kind of "imperialistic super-police". It seems to me that Israel, that I view as the usual oppressor in that part of the world, would (first) need to make some radical policy changes (and we know it is not under much pressure from the Trump administration to do that): withdraw from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, lift the Gaza blockade (which does not prevent some normal checking at the borders in this notoriously tense part of the world), give back control of territorial waters and so on (stop being an occupying power).
This should, in my opinion, greatly reduce the level of hate and passion in this region. And then (and only then), after the level of violence and hate and passion is reduced by, say, a factor of one hundred or one thousand, if there are still some members of the Islamic Jihad (say) who continue to fire rockets into Israel, I suggest possibly sending U.N. peacekeepers to take care of that, if possible in good cooperation with the (hopefully) elected leaders of Gaza.

Bottom line: if Israel becomes a honest state, abiding by international law (rather than a rogue state which survives only thanks to support from the "U.S. rogue state"), it should get help to ensure its security, with the immense power of the international community.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:35 PM   #1617
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
History has already proven you wrong. The Israeli withdrawl from Gaza produced an increase in rocket attacks, not a decrease.
But Israel never really completed the withdrawal process, and imposed a dreadful blockade.

I may quote wikipedia:
Quote:
Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."[59] Human Rights Watch has advised the UN Human Rights Council that it (and others) consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip because Israel controls Gaza Strip's airspace, territorial waters and controls the movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.[60][61][62] The EU considers Gaza to be occupied.[63]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_S...disengagement/)
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:42 PM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Bottom line: if Israel becomes a honest state, abiding by international law (rather than a rogue state which survives only thanks to support from the "U.S. rogue state"), it should get help to ensure its security, with the immense power of the international community.
You aren't listening. That may well be what should happen. The problem is that it won't happen. Even if Israel does everything you want it to do, they will not get the protection that you envision. They will not get it because NOBODY gets it. Ever. The "international community" isn't capable of providing protection.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But Israel never really completed the withdrawal process, and imposed a dreadful blockade.
You're making excuses for why you're wrong, but they don't change the fact that you're wrong. Israel took a major step in the direction that both you and Hamas wanted. And in return, hostilities escalated, in direct contradiction to what you're claiming will happen in the future. The fact that they didn't go as far as you want them to go isn't relevant. They will never go as far as Hamas wants them to go, and at every step in that direction, Hamas will simply use whatever concessions they get in order to step up attacks. That's what they do, that's who they are. They won't change just because you hope they will, or think they should.
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:59 PM   #1619
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You aren't listening. That may well be what should happen. The problem is that it won't happen. Even if Israel does everything you want it to do, they will not get the protection that you envision. They will not get it because NOBODY gets it. Ever. The "international community" isn't capable of providing protection.



You're making excuses for why you're wrong, but they don't change the fact that you're wrong. Israel took a major step in the direction that both you and Hamas wanted. And in return, hostilities escalated, in direct contradiction to what you're claiming will happen in the future. The fact that they didn't go as far as you want them to go isn't relevant. They will never go as far as Hamas wants them to go, and at every step in that direction, Hamas will simply use whatever concessions they get in order to step up attacks. That's what they do, that's who they are. They won't change just because you hope they will, or think they should.
Quote:
The "international community" isn't capable of providing protection.
It seems to me you are underestimated the international community here, all the distinguished diplomats .... They were able to liberate Kuwait in 1991.
Quote:
Israel took a major step in the direction that both you and Hamas wanted. And in return, hostilities escalated, in direct contradiction to what you're claiming will happen in the future.
Israel moved perhaps 10% of the necessary way, in the right direction, and may not have seen a security improvement. But this does not really tell you what could happen if Israel did "its full job" (you cannot really extrapolate linearly, human psychology is too complex).

You seem to have a typically American viewpoint, saying that Hamas is somehow "very evil". But I suspect Hamas is actually more "like anybody else".
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Old 15th May 2019, 07:22 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems to me you are underestimated the international community here, all the distinguished diplomats .... They were able to liberate Kuwait in 1991.
The American military liberated Kuwait, not blue helmets. Yes, some other countries helped, but it was always a mostly US operation. No other country could have taken America's role. No combination of countries could have done it without the US.

If you want the American military to root out Hamas rockets, then say so. The blue helmets aren't capable of anything of the sort.

Quote:
Israel moved perhaps 10% of the necessary way, in the right direction, and may not have seen a security improvement.
May not have?

How deep does your denial of reality go?

Quote:
But this does not really tell you what could happen if Israel did "its full job" (you cannot really extrapolate linearly, human psychology is too complex).
Now it's complex when you don't want to accept the obvious, but it was amazingly simple when you were making your own unsubstantiated claims about how Hamas would respond to your hypothetical.

Quote:
You seem to have a typically American viewpoint, saying that Hamas is somehow "very evil". But I suspect Hamas is actually more "like anybody else".
Hamas calls for genocide against Jews. This isn't a secret. They aren't somehow "very evil". It's pretty god damned obvious how they're very evil.

But I guess even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao had their apologists.
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Old 15th May 2019, 08:14 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The American military liberated Kuwait, not blue helmets. Yes, some other countries helped, but it was always a mostly US operation. No other country could have taken America's role. No combination of countries could have done it without the US.

If you want the American military to root out Hamas rockets, then say so. The blue helmets aren't capable of anything of the sort.



May not have?

How deep does your denial of reality go?



Now it's complex when you don't want to accept the obvious, but it was amazingly simple when you were making your own unsubstantiated claims about how Hamas would respond to your hypothetical.



Hamas calls for genocide against Jews. This isn't a secret. They aren't somehow "very evil". It's pretty god damned obvious how they're very evil.

But I guess even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao had their apologists.
Quote:
If you want the American military to root out Hamas rockets, then say so. The blue helmets aren't capable of anything of the sort.
In principle, I would see nothing wrong about U.S. troops acting under a proper U.N. mandate, which would make their action legal under international law. However, the U.S. is so closely associated with Israel, I am afraid this would create a problem for an intervention in Gaza in a spirit of benevolent neutrality.
Quote:
Hamas calls for genocide against Jews. This isn't a secret. They aren't somehow "very evil". It's pretty god damned obvious how they're very evil.
This Hamas website says this:
Quote:
The scourge of Anti-Semitism is an abhorrent form of racism that discriminates against all Jews for who they are, and therefore, much like all other forms of racism targeting other decent human beings, it must confronted and eliminated.
(Link: http://hamas.ps/en/page/13/FAQ#FAQ7/)
As you can see, it is actually anti-semitism they want to eliminate (at least, "officially"), not the Jews.

It is an undeniable fact that Israel has not withdrawn from all occupied territories, and it is therefore culpable under international law. And all your speculations, about how incredibly "evil" its enemies or presumed enemies (real or imagined) are, do not change this basic fact.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:10 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This Hamas website says this:
(Link: http://hamas.ps/en/page/13/FAQ#FAQ7/)
Hamas and other terrorist organizations have a long history of saying one thing to western audiences and something completely different to their own people.

Quote:
As you can see, it is actually anti-semitism they want to eliminate (at least, "officially"), not the Jews.
"Officially". Only with quote marks around it, and certainly not in actuality.

Quote:
It is an undeniable fact that Israel has not withdrawn from all occupied territories, and it is therefore culpable under international law.
It is an undeniable fact that Hamas commits war crimes including attacking civilian targets and using civilians as human shields, and it is therefore culpable under international law.

Quote:
And all your speculations, about how incredibly "evil" its enemies or presumed enemies (real or imagined) are, do not change this basic fact.
The nature of Hamas isn't speculation, and it isn't imagined. And I suspect that you know it too. But for some reason, you still want to make excuses for a terrorist organization. Why (I ask rhetorically)? There are multiple possible reasons, but none of them are good.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:08 AM   #1623
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The nature of Hamas isn't speculation, and it isn't imagined. And I suspect that you know it too. But for some reason, you still want to make excuses for a terrorist organization. Why (I ask rhetorically)? There are multiple possible reasons, but none of them are good.
I personally view Hamas as a political organization, with a military wing. Though it is not my favorite kind of organization, I view it as far less "terrorist" than Israel and the U.S.. The main reason is that the inhabitants of Gaza are subject to many painful restrictions, and, while I do not agree with all the things Hamas is doing (I am very far from that), it seems to me that it is understandable that some people want to fight for a better future, want to fight injustice. I live in a country (Belgium) which was militarily occupied by Germany from 1940 to 1944 (even though it was neutral at the start of World War II), and this led to resistance and a lot of violence too. It is possible that, sometimes, for Hamas, bombarding their neighbor Israel with rockets, may force it (Israel) to ease some restrictions, because Israel is afraid of these rockets. It is even possible (though I don't want to incite or encourage violence) that, if Hamas had ten times more rockets, it could actually force Israel to lift all restrictions and get away from all remaining occupied territories.

You are trying to argue (without supplying proof), with evident sympathy for the Israeli oppressor, that withdrawals don't work because, according to you, Israel saw no security improvement after its settlers left Gaza in 2005. But what would have happened if these settlers had not gone back to Israel? Perhaps several of them would (unfortunately) have been murdered by furious and exasperated Gaza Palestinians.

In 1982 and 1989, Israel withdrew from all of the Sinai Peninsula, as a result of the Camp David Accords. This led to a great improvement of relations between Israel and Egypt. This shows that this "land for peace" agreements can actually work well.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:23 AM   #1624
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It is even possible (though I don't want to incite or encourage violence) that, if Hamas had ten times more rockets, it could actually force Israel to lift all restrictions and get away from all remaining occupied territories.

I hope you realize that for Hamas, et al. the term "all remaining occupied territories" actually means ALL of Israel?
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:30 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I personally view Hamas as a political organization, with a military wing. Though it is not my favorite kind of organization, I view it as far less "terrorist" than Israel and the U.S..
Your mask has now fully slipped off.

Quote:
The main reason is that the inhabitants of Gaza are subject to many painful restrictions, and, while I do not agree with all the things Hamas is doing (I am very far from that), it seems to me that it is understandable that some people want to fight for a better future, want to fight injustice.
Murdering children doesn't fight injustice, and Hamas isn't doing jack **** to produce a better future. They could be spending their resources on infrastructure improvements, for example. Instead, they pour their wealth into building tunnels to try to kill more Jews, and indoctrinate their children into a cult of hate to make sure the violence continues unabated.

Quote:
I live in a country (Belgium) which was militarily occupied by Germany from 1940 to 1944 (even though it was neutral at the start of World War II), and this led to resistance and a lot of violence too. It is possible that, sometimes, for Hamas, bombarding their neighbor Israel with rockets, may force it (Israel) to ease some restrictions, because Israel is afraid of these rockets.
That doesn't even pass the laugh test. Israel is blockading Gaza to try to prevent the importation of weapons like rockets. Using rockets to attack Israel is never going to make them want to make it easier for Hamas to fire rockets at Israel.

Seriously, did you think for even one second about what you're saying?

Quote:
It is even possible (though I don't want to incite or encourage violence) that, if Hamas had ten times more rockets, it could actually force Israel to lift all restrictions and get away from all remaining occupied territories.
You don't want to encourage violence. Just fantasize about it. Sure.

Quote:
You are trying to argue (without supplying proof), with evident sympathy for the Israeli oppressor, that withdrawals don't work because, according to you, Israel saw no security improvement after its settlers left Gaza in 2005.
That's not proof in the sense that this isn't math, but it's pretty damned strong evidence. And given that your own positions have been consistently evidence-free, it's more than a little ironic that you're trying to argue against me on this basis.

Quote:
In 1982 and 1989, Israel withdrew from all of the Sinai Peninsula, as a result of the Camp David Accords. This led to a great improvement of relations between Israel and Egypt. This shows that this "land for peace" agreements can actually work well.
Yes, it can... when you're dealing with a functioning state that you can negotiate with in confidence.

But the Palestinians don't have that. They've got a kleptocratic collection of terrorists-turned-bureaucrats who still won't actually renounce their terrorism. Efforts at negotiations have consistently failed. Your own example shows that Israel is capable of negotiating peace. It's the Palestinians who are not.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:06 AM   #1626
Michel H
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
It is even possible (though I don't want to incite or encourage violence) that, if Hamas had ten times more rockets, it could actually force Israel to lift all restrictions and get away from all remaining occupied territories.

I hope you realize that for Hamas, et al. the term "all remaining occupied territories" actually means ALL of Israel?
Not necessarily.

The Guardian wrote, two years ago:

Quote:
Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders
...
In the biggest concession, the new document states that Hamas “considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of 4 June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus”.

By implication, the document accepts that there will be another state entity outside these borders, even if it does not mention Israel.
(Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-1967-borders/)
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:27 AM   #1627
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it can... when you're dealing with a functioning state that you can negotiate with in confidence.

But the Palestinians don't have that. They've got a kleptocratic collection of terrorists-turned-bureaucrats who still won't actually renounce their terrorism. Efforts at negotiations have consistently failed. Your own example shows that Israel is capable of negotiating peace. It's the Palestinians who are not.
Israel is actually frequently negotiating with Hamas (through Egyptian mediation), and with the Palestinian Authority. I don't think it's hard to negotiate with Palestinians. However, there is not that much to "negotiate" to bring this unfortunate and long conflict to an end: Israel should just carry out its obligations specified by U.N. Security Council resolutions, leave remaining occupied territories, stop being a rogue state supported by the U.S. rogue state, and then the conflict will (hopefully) end. Of course, Israel should also stop all forms of blockade and restrictions. When people are treated well and (importantly) in an "equal" way, their motivations to attack others fades away and vanishes, and this is the kind of situation that smart people like and want to help achieve (in my opinion, at least).
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Old 16th May 2019, 10:45 AM   #1628
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Israel is actually frequently negotiating with Hamas (through Egyptian mediation), and with the Palestinian Authority. I don't think it's hard to negotiate with Palestinians. However, there is not that much to "negotiate" to bring this unfortunate and long conflict to an end: Israel should just carry out its obligations specified by U.N. Security Council resolutions, leave remaining occupied territories, stop being a rogue state supported by the U.S. rogue state, and then the conflict will (hopefully) end.
Sure, it will just end, as if by magic.

Of course that won't end the conflict. Your fundamental premise is wrong, and so none of this is worth taking the least bit seriously.

Quote:
Of course, Israel should also stop all forms of blockade and restrictions. When people are treated well and (importantly) in an "equal" way, their motivations to attack others fades away and vanishes,
This is dangerously naive. And I don't mean "dangerous" just as a way to emphasize how naive it is, I mean it's the kind of naivety that literally gets people killed.

No. That isn't how Islamic terrorism operates. Terrorism is driven by ideology, not by oppression. That's why so many terrorists are actually middle class, educated, and well to do.
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Old 16th May 2019, 12:45 PM   #1629
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The Guardian article you selectively quoted also indicates --
...the document rejects the Oslo accords, and asserts that resistance for the liberation of Palestine will remain “a legitimate right, a duty and an honour”, adding “armed resistance is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and rights of the Palesinian people”.

Those who follow this sort of thing will remember the 1974 Phased Plan of the PLO.
https://emetnews.org/documents/the-plo-phased-plan.php
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Old 16th May 2019, 12:51 PM   #1630
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Micheal H's solution to the Arab Isreali problem is about as realistic as his 'All the towns in California should build a moat around them to protect them from wildfires" solution during last fall's California Wildfires was.
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Old 16th May 2019, 01:10 PM   #1631
Michel H
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Micheal H's solution to the Arab Isreali problem is about as realistic as his 'All the towns in California should build a moat around them to protect them from wildfires" solution during last fall's California Wildfires was.
But, once again, I never said such a thing (although I did offer a suggestion). This is probably why you find it more convenient not to quote me, in spite of the existence of a good quote function on this forum.
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Old 17th May 2019, 02:40 AM   #1632
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post

This Hamas website says this:

(Link: http://hamas.ps/en/page/13/FAQ#FAQ7/)
As you can see, it is actually anti-semitism they want to eliminate (at least, "officially"), not the Jews.

It is an undeniable fact that Israel has not withdrawn from all occupied territories, and it is therefore culpable under international law. And all your speculations, about how incredibly "evil" its enemies or presumed enemies (real or imagined) are, do not change this basic fact.
Michel H: I have attached a copy of Hamas' latest charter. I strongly suggest you read it, as it may correct many of the misapprehensions you have about Hamas and their intentions.
Here are some relevant quotes:
Quote:
Palestine is the land of the Arab Palestinian people, from it they originate, to it they adhere and belong, and about it they reach out and communicate.
Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.
Quote:
Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.

3. Palestine is an Arab Islamic land. It is a blessed sacred land that has a special place in the heart of every Arab and every Muslim.
Quote:
The Palestinians are the Arabs who lived in Palestine until 1947, irrespective of whether they were expelled from it, or stayed in it; and every person that was born to an Arab Palestinian father after that date, whether inside or outside Palestine, is a Palestinian.
Quote:
The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.

15. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.


16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Quote:
The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah;
There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity.
Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
Quote:
Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.
As you can see, they have no intention of recognising the state of Israel, they claim the whole of Palestine as their own, and they claim it as an entirely Islamic nation.
Tacking a statement on the end of this saying "we're not anti-semitic, really we're not!" is an obvious smokescreen for their true feelings.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:10 AM   #1633
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Quote:
From above: The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will...
So far, this is the same claim any people anywhere would make if their land were expropriated...

Quote:
...and the will of the Ummah....
... on which they aspire to create a vastly more heinous and dictatorial regime far more egregious than anything the Israelis have done or plan to do. [See Sudan and the stuffing of democratic aspirations by demands from the military for Sharia law to be the driving legal foundation.] There is a reason Islamic nations have tremendous difficulties in nurturing modern societies or even publishing books, and its name is Islam. Founded, by the way, by the world's first Donald Trump, insisting his name be everywhere and everyone else get slapped around if he is ever ignored, dissed or criticized. Yuk.

No good guys in the ME, just Abrahamic bull riders.
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Old 17th May 2019, 06:57 AM   #1634
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Michel H: I have attached a copy of Hamas' latest charter. I strongly suggest you read it, as it may correct many of the misapprehensions you have about Hamas and their intentions.
Here are some relevant quotes: ...
As you can see, they have no intention of recognising the state of Israel, they claim the whole of Palestine as their own, and they claim it as an entirely Islamic nation.
Tacking a statement on the end of this saying "we're not anti-semitic, really we're not!" is an obvious smokescreen for their true feelings.
Cosmic Yak, the document you are referring to is indeed Hamas' latest charter or covenant, wikipedia has an article devoted to Hamas' charter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant.
This text is, in my opinion, fairly well written, and contains some historically correct (or partly correct) remarks, for example:
Quote:
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
This text is (in my opinion) partly correct because it acknowledges that the creation of Israel was related to (mostly) unfair and very violent persecution of the Jews by the Nazis during World War II.

The relationship between the migration of desperate Jews to Palestine, and the creation of the state of Israel, is explained here: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...ate-of-israel/.

The Hamas text, however, seems to have "forgotten" that the Arabs have done some conquering too, and the historical Jewish presence in Israel: see introduction of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel/.

In addition, the decision to partition Palestine into two new states, one Jewish and the other Arab, was taken democratically and peacefully, in a civilized way, by the U.N. General Assembly.

I think that you are correct when you state that Hamas currently does not want to recognize the State of Israel, but the Hamas charter also says:
Quote:
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds.
What do you do with the nine million citizens of Israel, once a state of Palestine has been created? And of its 6.5 million Jews? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews/). Just throw them into the Mediterranean Sea, with Donald J. Trump? No, of course! (though some people may like this idea). This would certainly be considered persecution. Force them to live under Islamic rule, to fast during Ramadan, deny them the right to a State? Persecution too.

The latest Hamas charter contains the following words:
Quote:
Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
In other words, Hamas (which, by the way, is not the Palestinian Authority), would be ready to accept a Palestinian State on only part of historical Palestine, "temporarily", and "rejects the persecution of any human being".

This leads me to believe that Hamas is not very far from a Peace solution (based on the well-known two-state solution). The international community, with its immense power, should guarantee the security of all Jews at all times, provided they respect the rights of others (which is far from being the case now). A rapid solution in Palestine would also have positive consequences for the population of Iran, currently suffering under (mostly) U.S. sanctions.

I agree that there are some elements of "extremism" in the Hamas charter, but extremism by one Palestinian faction does not excuse extremism by the more powerful state of Israel, because it has decided that it no longer likes international decisions, and therefore decides to ignore them (reminder: the state of Israel was created by a U.N. General Assembly vote in 1947 [partition plan]).

Last edited by Michel H; 17th May 2019 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:14 AM   #1635
Aidoneus
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This text is (in my opinion) partly correct because it acknowledges that the creation of Israel was related to (mostly) unfair and very violent persecution of the Jews by the Nazis during World War II.
Careful... wouldn’t want anyone to see your actual opinions coming through.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:32 AM   #1636
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Aidoneus View Post
Careful... wouldn’t want anyone to see your actual opinions coming through.
Quote:
Ernst Eduard vom Rath (3 June 1909 – 9 November 1938) was a German diplomat, remembered for his assassination in Paris in 1938 by a Polish Jewish teenager, Herschel Grynszpan, which provided a pretext for the Kristallnacht, "The Night of Broken Glass".
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_vom_Rath/)
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:02 PM   #1637
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Kristallnacht was completely unfair. Not at all justified.

It's hard to read your critique of Israel as anything other than profoundly and hatefully anti Semitic.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:44 PM   #1638
Michel H
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Kristallnacht was completely unfair. Not at all justified.

It's hard to read your critique of Israel as anything other than profoundly and hatefully anti Semitic.
Quote:
Kristallnacht was completely unfair. Not at all justified.
I also think it was (mostly) unfair and unjustified. However (for exemple), wikipedia explains:
Quote:
In its fight against growing anti-Semitism in Europe, the WJC pursued a two-pronged approach: the political and legal sphere (mainly the lobbying of the League of Nations and public statements) on the one hand, and an attempt to organize a boycott of products from countries such as Nazi Germany on the other.
(WJC=World Jewish Congress, link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...dation_(1936)/)
Nothing there to make German citizens very happy.
Quote:
It's hard to read your critique of Israel as anything other than profoundly and hatefully anti Semitic.
Perhaps you have this impression because you view my posts through the lenses of U.S. and Israeli imperialism, which seems to be somewhat dominant on this forum, in spite of a certain open-mindedness. I don't think a true anti-Semite would write:
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The international community, with its immense power, should guarantee the security of all Jews at all times, provided they respect the rights of others (which is far from being the case now).
and similar remarks. I have spent some time studying history (including recent history), and for example the role of Israel pushing for war against Iraq before the 2003 invasion. I tend to be more "severe" about countries who have caused (and are still causing, in my opinion) a lot of unecessary suffering, without necessarily writing out all details, which would be boring and impossible. Nothing anti-Semitic there, more some knowledge of history, I think.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:47 PM   #1639
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[quote=Hlafordlaes;12698562]So far, this is the same claim any people anywhere would make if their land were expropriated...
Quote:
From above: The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will...
Granted.
Except this is not what happened in Palestine.
I suggest reading "From Time Immemorial" for an insight into the true situation. Great numbers of the so-called Palestinians were itinerant workers, many of them were not from Palestine at all, and a significant number were not even Arabs. The idea that the Palestinian Arabs, were dispossessed from their ancestral lands by the creation of israel is simply untrue.
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Old 17th May 2019, 01:07 PM   #1640
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Granted.
Except this is not what happened in Palestine.
I suggest reading "From Time Immemorial" for an insight into the true situation. Great numbers of the so-called Palestinians were itinerant workers, many of them were not from Palestine at all, and a significant number were not even Arabs. The idea that the Palestinian Arabs, were dispossessed from their ancestral lands by the creation of israel is simply untrue.
But this book has been criticized:
Quote:
the book's central claims were contradicted by Norman Finkelstein and other critics, including Noam Chomsky, Edward Said and Yehoshua Porath. Daniel Pipes endorsed the book's central thesis and claimed that weaknesses in the book do not undermine its theses.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial/).
A few years ago, somebody asked (on Quora):
Quote:
When Jews moved to Israel (i.e., British Palestine) before 1948, did they buy the land they settled on? Or did the Jews seize the land forcibly from Arab landowners? Did the Zionists steal land?
(https://www.quora.com/When-Jews-move...ts-steal-land/)
Alon Shalev replied:
Quote:
It is worthwhile to note that in many cases the Arab farmers who lived on a certain piece of land did not own it, but rather a rich feudal owned the land and the farmers leased it. In such cases often when Jews purchased land this would result in the eviction of these farmers by the seller. This was the background for many of the early clashes between Jews and Arabs in the land of Israel/Palestine.
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