Mueller Investigation pt 6

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Drysdale said:
Again, what was the crime that initiated the surveillance?
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Ummm ...

Maybe this is news to you, but the authorities are at liberty to investigate potential criminal acts.

If you would care to investigate the record, then you will find a considerable number of people who are in prison as the result of investigations into their criminal acts well before these people were actually convicted of committing the criminal acts in question.
 
Crossbow said:
Ummm ...

Maybe this is news to you, but the authorities are at liberty to investigate potential criminal acts.

If you would care to investigate the record, then you will find a considerable number of people who are in prison as the result of investigations into their criminal acts well before these people were actually convicted of committing the criminal acts in question.
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And what is the criminal act again?
 
Drysdale said:
And what is the criminal act again?
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Conspiracy against the US.
Campaign Finance Violations.
Money Laundering.
Failure to register as a foreign agent.

there was evidence for all of these and more - no wonder it was easy to get multiple judges to agree to FISA and search warrants.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Conspiracy against the US.
Campaign Finance Violations.
Money Laundering.
Failure to register as a foreign agent.

there was evidence for all of these and more - no wonder it was easy to get multiple judges to agree to FISA and search warrants.
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A repeating example of that Men in Black memory wipe. :rolleyes:
 
Minoosh said:
Yeah, Mueller was cautious. I think overall that's a good thing. I'm pretty sure he laid out the case as clearly as he could. We don't know which bits we're missing due to redactions but it will all come out eventually.
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Some observers have noted that the Mueller investigation ended days after Barr became AG. There are nagging suspicions that Barr shut it down before Mueller intended. We don't know what else Mueller might have found.
https://www.politicususa.com/2019/02/20/maddow-trump-ag-shut-down-mueller-investigation.html
 
Something side-related to the Mueller investigation (I didn't think it deserved a new thread for it)...

What ever happened to the extra Manfort charges? He received ~7 years in 2 trials (generally seen as far too light.) But:

- In one trial, the jury was deadlocked on some of the charges, and they could have retried him over them
- Right after his trials on federal crimes, he was indicted on state charges in New York related to fraud

So, what happened to the deadlocked charges? Did Mueller and his team decline to follow through? If so, why?

And on the state charges... are they just going to sit idle unless needed due to a potential Trump pardon? Or is New York actively working on the case?
 
Segnosaur said:
Something side-related to the Mueller investigation (I didn't think it deserved a new thread for it)...

What ever happened to the extra Manfort charges? He received ~7 years in 2 trials (generally seen as far too light.) But:

- In one trial, the jury was deadlocked on some of the charges, and they could have retried him over them
- Right after his trials on federal crimes, he was indicted on state charges in New York related to fraud
.....
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The deadlocked charges were folded into his plea bargain.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/14/manafort-plea-deal-questions-823883

The state charges were just filed in March. Chances are that the process will continue for months, if not years. No rush now, but I bet if Trump pardons him prosecutors will suddenly find a need for speed.
https://nypost.com/2019/03/13/paul-manafort-indicted-on-new-fraud-charges-in-new-york/
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Conspiracy against the US.
Campaign Finance Violations.
Money Laundering.
Failure to register as a foreign agent.

there was evidence for all of these and more - no wonder it was easy to get multiple judges to agree to FISA and search warrants.
Click to expand...

That's not accurate.
The FISA were all based on the fraudulent dossier and media leaks.
And it's obviously much easier to get a FISA than was intended.
 
Crossbow said:
Team Trump has already been involved with several criminal acts which have resulted in jail time for at least some of them.
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All process crimes. Not one stating anything else.
Except Manafort, who wasn't convicted on anything related to Trump.
 
Drysdale said:
All process crimes.
......
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This "process crimes" business is right-wing silliness. Lying to investigators is a serious crime in itself. Concealing evidence is a serious crime in itself. They're called "obstructing justice," among other things. How could any suspected crime be investigated if subjects and witnesses are free to lie?
 
Lindsey Graham said:
I was one of the Republicans insisting that Mueller be allowed to do his job. I never thought it was a witch hunt. The report is in, no collusion. No -- you know, Mueller didn't do anything on obstruction.
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This was an amusing moment in Chris Wallace's interview of Lindsey Graham Sunday. I'm sure he caught himself before he repeated "no ... obstruction" and changed it to "Mueller didn't do anything on obstruction."

It was an interesting interview - Graham is not in lockstep with Trump on everything - Saudi Arabia arms "emergency," for example - so I expect Trump to tweet something at least mildly critical.
 
Bob001 said:
Some observers have noted that the Mueller investigation ended days after Barr became AG. There are nagging suspicions that Barr shut it down before Mueller intended. We don't know what else Mueller might have found.
https://www.politicususa.com/2019/02/20/maddow-trump-ag-shut-down-mueller-investigation.html
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There were also indications that Mueller was being rushed before then, for that matter. How the Manafort plea deal was handled, I think, has been poked at a few times, as an example.

Drysdale said:
That's not accurate.
The FISA were all based on the fraudulent dossier and media leaks.
And it's obviously much easier to get a FISA than was intended.
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:rolleyes:

It's amazing the lengths that Republican propaganda goes to reverse black and white, eh? It's still all about the "fraudulent dossier" in that line of propaganda despite that having repeatedly been confirmed to be a combination of outright lies.

The investigation was started based on credible and concerning intelligence passed on by our allies. The dossier came notably later.

As for the dossier, so far, the only part of it that even seems to have a decent argument against it is regarding the Cohen trip to Prague. With that said, most of the rest of it's been pretty well confirmed. Heck, after the Mueller Report, we even have evidence that strongly indicates that TRUMP believed that Russia had compromising tapes like the pee tape and took action to try to suppress them... and what's worse, that's only ONE of the ways in which it's been made perfectly clear that Trump has been compromised by foreign interests.

Spare us of your fake concern.
 
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Bob001 said:
This "process crimes" business is right-wing silliness. Lying to investigators is a serious crime in itself. Concealing evidence is a serious crime in itself. They're called "obstructing justice," among other things. How could any suspected crime be investigated if subjects and witnesses are free to lie?
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And to be clear, they did such. As stated in the Mueller Report, the lies and obstruction materially interfered with the investigation.
 
Drysdale said:
That's not accurate.
The FISA were all based on the fraudulent dossier and media leaks.
And it's obviously much easier to get a FISA than was intended.
Click to expand...

Media leaks?

Here again, that Men in Black memory eraser has erased all that information about Papadopoulos and the Aussie Ambassador and the Dossier.

I can see why. The right-wing blogosphere dominates the first two pages at least of a search for "FISA Warrant evidence Papadopoulos". All the headlines claim Obama was behind the FBI investigation. That on it's face is hard to believe. It's not like Comey and Obama were tight buddies.

But the most revealing is Nunes' memo on the FISA Warrant to surveil Carter Page. We all know Nunes was obsessed with helping Trump.

Newsweek: GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, NOT STEELE DOSSIER, TRIGGERED INVESTIGATION INTO TRUMP CAMPAIGN: NUNES MEMO
A four-page memo released by the House Intelligence Committee on Friday alleges that the FBI and the Department of Justice used politically motivated intelligence to obtain surveillance warrants for former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser Carter Page. But the memo's final paragraph admits that federal law enforcement's probe into the Trump campaign's ties to Russia was triggered by a different loud-mouthed campaign adviser rather than the controversial Steele dossier.

“The Page FISA application also mentions information regarding fellow Trump campaign advisor George Papadopoulos, but there is no evidence of any cooperation or conspiracy between Page and Papadopoulos,” the Nunes memo reads. “The Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016 by FBI agent Pete Strzok.”... In May of 2016, Papadopoulos told Alexander Downer that he knew Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton. Two months later, Australia passed this information on to American intelligence officials.
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The Aussies passed the info on when the DNC emails began to be leaked.


Here's one of the typical right-wing blogosphere 'scandals' about the FISA warrant application. The Hill: Opinion piece: A convenient omission? Trump campaign adviser denied collusion to FBI source early on

Oh how scandalous it doesn't mention Papadopoulos denied there was any collusion to an agent. :rolleyes:

It does however, say this:
The FBI officially opened the Trump-Russia case on July 31, 2016, based on suspicions that Papadopoulos had prior knowledge that Russia hacked Clinton’s emails, but it quickly pivoted by early fall 2016 to evidence such as the Democratic-funded dossier produced by Christopher Steele, and Trump campaign adviser Carter Page’s trips to Moscow. The FISA warrant was drafted to target surveillance at Page but also cited Papadopoulos in a section that suggested Russia was coordinating election collusion through Page and "perhaps other individuals associated" with Trump's campaign.

“The truth is, the Papadopoulos predicate went into reversal, but rather than shut down the probe at that point, the bureau turned to other leads like Steele and Page without giving the court a full picture,” one source said.
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Then there is the issue the Trumpers want everyone to think the Dossier was discredited. In reality they have been screaming it was biased (which BTW was noted in the FISA Warrant application) while ignoring much of it has been corroborated.

Slate: The Steele Report, Revisited
How much of the infamous document ended up being corroborated elsewhere? A whole lot.

But all of this has been posted, more than once in this thread. It just keeps slipping people's minds. :cool:
 
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Bob001 said:
The deadlocked charges were folded into his plea bargain.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/14/manafort-plea-deal-questions-823883

The state charges were just filed in March. Chances are that the process will continue for months, if not years. No rush now, but I bet if Trump pardons him prosecutors will suddenly find a need for speed.
https://nypost.com/2019/03/13/paul-manafort-indicted-on-new-fraud-charges-in-new-york/
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I am pretty sure they will be waiting for him outside the gates of the Federal Slammer near Scranton PA, with handcuffs and a fresh jumpsuit as he leaves.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
But all of this has been posted, more than once in this thread. It just keeps slipping people's minds. :cool:
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That what happens when Trumpers shut their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears and scream "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" as loudly as they can.

I short, they don't WANT to know the actual truth, they are only interested in "Trump Truth"TM.
 
Bob001 said:
Something side-related to the Mueller investigation (I didn't think it deserved a new thread for it)...

What ever happened to the extra Manfort charges? He received ~7 years in 2 trials (generally seen as far too light.) But:

- In one trial, the jury was deadlocked on some of the charges, and they could have retried him over them
- Right after his trials on federal crimes, he was indicted on state charges in New York related to fraud
Click to expand...
The deadlocked charges were folded into his plea bargain.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/14/manafort-plea-deal-questions-823883
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Yes, but if I understand: the plea bargain was for the District of Columbia charges, but Manafort ended up breaking the plea deal before the trial because it was found he lied to prosecutors. I assumed that since the deal was negated that they could refile charges if they wanted.
The state charges were just filed in March. Chances are that the process will continue for months, if not years. No rush now, but I bet if Trump pardons him prosecutors will suddenly find a need for speed.
https://nypost.com/2019/03/13/paul-manafort-indicted-on-new-fraud-charges-in-new-york/
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I know Manafort won't be going anywhere for the next few years. I figured they'd still want to get the case wrapped up as quickly as possible. (After all, over time evidence gets lost, witnesses become unavailable, etc.). Plus, I don't know if the statute of limitations factors in here at all.

On the other hand, there is an advantage to waiting... if they bring charges and lose, Trump can pardon manafort, so by keeping the charges as a 'threat' they may keep Trump from acting.
 
Segnosaur said:
On the other hand, there is an advantage to waiting... if they bring charges and lose, Trump can pardon manafort, so by keeping the charges as a 'threat' they may keep Trump from acting.
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Nope. POTUS can pardon people for future prosecutions for federal crimes they may have already committed (but of course, not for ones they have not yet committed).

That's what Gerald Ford did when he pardoned Nixon; Richard Nixon was never prosecuted for any of the criminal acts he committed while in office, because Ford pardoned him in advance of any possible indictments... remember, Nixon was named as an "unindicted co-conspirator"

This is why the NY State charges are the big worry for Trump. POTUS cannot touch those. If Trump is impeached and convicted, and President Pense pardons him, the NY State charges are likely to go ahead, and Pence would not be able to do anything about them.
 
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smartcooky said:
Nope. POTUS can pardon people for future prosecutions for crimes they may have already committed (but of course, not for ones they have not yet committed)



That's what Gerald Ford did when he pardoned Nixon; Richard Nixon was never prosecuted for any of the criminal acts he committed while in office, because Ford pardoned him in advance of any possible indictments... remember, Nixon was an "unindicted co-conspirator"
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I believe this was in reference to state charges, which the President has no jurisdiction in.
 
smartcooky said:
On the other hand, there is an advantage to waiting... if they bring charges and lose, Trump can pardon manafort, so by keeping the charges as a 'threat' they may keep Trump from acting.
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Nope. POTUS can pardon people for future prosecutions for crimes they may have already committed (but of course, not for ones they have not yet committed)
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But Trump can't pardon for state crimes, which is what New York brought against manafort.

My thought was:

- If NY tries manafort and wins, no point in Trump pardoning him since he's in jail regardless.

- If NY tries manafort and loses, Trump would pardon him and he'd be free to walk

So NY could just sit on the charges, rather than risk a trial they could lose.

That's just a guess though.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
But no way to “make him whole” for the many months he’s already spent in jail. At his advanced age (essentials my age) that’s no small thing, as his youth and healthful years are slowly whittled away.
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I'm sure Trump will reimburse Manafort out of his own pocket for the assets Mueller confiscated.
Right?
 
Mueller Coup attempt

The entire Crossfire Hurricane counter-intelligence investigation was supposedly based on George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud on April 26, 2016. So everything hinges on Joseph Mifsud being a Russian agent. If he is really an asset of western intelligence then this whole investigation was a fraud.

Background:

George Papadopoulos was working for the London Centre for International Law Practice(LCILP) when in March of 2016 he announced that he was leaving to go work on the Trump campaign. One of the directors at the LCILP, Arvinder Sambei, encouraged Papadopoulos, before he left, to visit a professor in Rome, Joseph Mifsud. He is/was a professor a Link Campus in Rome. This is apparently some type of spy school for FBI, CIA, MI-6 etc. Papadopoulos was introduced to Mifsud by Vincenzo Scotti, the former Foreign Affairs Minister of Italy. Mifsud probed Papadopoulos on his religion and other matters. Mifsud mentioned that he had connections to Russian officials. When Papadopoulos returned to London he received an e-mail from Mifsud asking for another meeting. He mentioned that he would be bringing "Putin's niece". The people at the LCILP also confirmed that this would be "Putin's niece", but actually it wasn't. But it gave Mifsud the appearance of having high level Russian contacts.

It was the meeting between Mifsud and Papadopoulos on April 26th, 2016where Mifsud told Papadopoulos that Russian had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of e-mails".

So is Mifsud a Russian agent?

- He is friends with Gianni Pittella an Italian socialist who attended a campaign rally for Hillary Clinton and called Trump a "virus".
- He worked with Claire Smith at the London Academy of Diplomacy, University of Stirling, and Link Campus University in Rome. She was on the United Kingdom’s Joint Intelligence Committee.
- He is a member of the European Council on Foreign relations.
- He was last seem publicly in a picture taken with Boris Johnson in October 2017.

He has since seemed to have disappeared from public view. However, he did not flee to Russia. He is still living and possibly under a different identity in Italy.

So why was Papadopoulos's having a few meetings with Mifsud and exchanging some e-mails evidence of a sinister Russian collusion that needed to be investigated, while Mifsud's relations with western intelligence didn't seem to interest Mueller and his team in the least?

In short, the entire Russian collusion, Russia hacked the election, Russian influence campaign, overall Russian hysteria is nothing more than a western intelligence, western media generated PSYOPS campaign against the American people. Not a single bit of it was ever true.
 
tanabear said:
The entire Crossfire Hurricane counter-intelligence investigation was supposedly based on George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud on April 26, 2016. So everything hinges on Joseph Mifsud being a Russian agent. If he is really an asset of western intelligence then this whole investigation was a fraud.
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Intelligence gathering and investigations do not hinge on the initial "premise" being true or not, that's the whole point of having investigations. If this guy isn't a Russian agent, then the investigation will find that out. Even if it is true that this guy isn't a Russian agent, all of the other evidence found that the Russian interfered in the USA elections is still valid. 400 pages of Mueller report shows that it was not a hoax.

In short, you are wrong. Your logic is flawed.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Intelligence gathering and investigations do not hinge on the initial "premise" being true or not, that's the whole point of having investigations. If this guy isn't a Russian agent, then the investigation will find that out. Even if it is true that this guy isn't a Russian agent, all of the other evidence found that the Russian interfered in the USA elections is still valid. 400 pages of Mueller report shows that it was not a hoax.

In short, you are wrong. Your logic is flawed.
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Well, that's good to know. The FBI can start investigations based on zero evidence of a crime. You can bring the entire weight of the security and surveillance state down on anybody without any evidence of a crime being committed. Yet, it is Trump who is called a fascist.

The Mueller investigation(i.e. coup attempt) is over. Why wasn't Joseph Mifsud indicted as being a Russian agent?

Because the entire story is a concoction of western intelligence and media.
 
tanabear said:
Well, that's good to know. The FBI can start investigations based on zero evidence of a crime. You can bring the entire weight of the security and surveillance state down on anybody without any evidence of a crime being committed. Yet, it is Trump who is called a fascist.

The Mueller investigation(i.e. coup attempt) is over. Why wasn't Joseph Mifsud indicted as being a Russian agent?

Because the entire story is a concoction of western intelligence and media.
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False dichotomy. There is a whole lot in between "proven guilty" and "zero evidence". There can certainly be enough evidence to start an investigation but not enough found in the course of said investigation to convict.
 
"On October 5, 2017, Papadopoulos pleaded guilty in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to making false statements to FBI agents relating to contacts he had with agents of the Russian government while working for the Trump campaign.[52][53] The guilty plea was part of a plea bargain reflecting his cooperation with the Mueller investigation.[36] "

. . .

"In a sentencing memorandum released on August 17, 2018, prosecutors stated that a sentence of zero to six months was "appropriate and warranted," noting that Papadopoulos had repeatedly lied to investigators and did not provide "substantial assistance" to the investigation,[60] and that his lies had interfered with the investigators' ability to question and if necessary detain Joseph Mifsud, who left the United States two weeks after Papadopoulos's first interview with the FBI.[61]"

:rolleyes:
 
tanabear said:
The entire Crossfire Hurricane counter-intelligence investigation was supposedly based on George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud on April 26, 2016. So everything hinges on Joseph Mifsud being a Russian agent. If he is really an asset of western intelligence then this whole investigation was a fraud.
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Including all those indictments, convictions and guilty pleas?

Do you see how brainwashed it sounds to claim the investigation was a fraud?

tanabear said:
[Snipped stuff I already know and I assume others do as well, those of us paying honest attention do anyway.]

In short, the entire Russian collusion, Russia hacked the election, Russian influence campaign, overall Russian hysteria is nothing more than a western intelligence, western media generated PSYOPS campaign against the American people. Not a single bit of it was ever true.
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This takes the brainwashing to another level.

Before you continue down this Trump created fantasy, take the time to read and understand about the hundreds of stolen and leaked emails from the DNC, from John Podesta, the billions (with a B) of fake FaceBook accounts, Russian troll farms and massive echo chambers on social media, Cambridge Analytica theft of FaceBook data base, stolen information from various voter registration agencies, oh, and while you are at it, you might want to read the Mueller report even though it is redacted.

Spouting off your fabricated revelation is not doing anything except repeating the echo for all the little Trumpies to think eureka!
 
tanabear said:
Because the entire story is a concoction of western intelligence and media.
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That's what Putin and Trump would have the world believe. Unfortunately for them, there is plenty of evidence that shows otherwise. Mueller's report shows that there is no doubt that Russia interfered in USA elections and had ties with the Trump campaign. Mueller also gave plenty of evidence to show that Trump obstructed the investigation. Trump is obstructing justice in public right now, in fact. Trump should be in jail.
 
tanabear said:
Well, that's good to know. The FBI can start investigations based on zero evidence of a crime.
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Have you asked yourself, why would they?


tanabear said:
You can bring the entire weight of the security and surveillance state down on anybody without any evidence of a crime being committed. Yet, it is Trump who is called a fascist.

The Mueller investigation(i.e. coup attempt) is over. Why wasn't Joseph Mifsud indicted as being a Russian agent?

Because the entire story is a concoction of western intelligence and media.
Click to expand...
The Mueller Report you have yet to read?

There was no coup attempt except in Trump's pointy little head because he can't stand the evidence that Putin helped Trump win the election. Take a gander at the Trump has a mental illness thread.

But like it has been said numerous times in this thread, some people simply want to believe an unsupported fantasy. Your posts put you in that category.
 
tanabear said:
The entire Crossfire Hurricane counter-intelligence investigation was supposedly based on George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud on April 26, 2016. So everything hinges on Joseph Mifsud being a Russian agent. If he is really an asset of western intelligence then this whole investigation was a fraud.
Click to expand...

You have already made the fundamental error that makes the rest of your post irrelevant. You are falling for the Trump/Barr/Giuliani mantra that there has to be an underlying crime, and that the original reason for the investigation has to be valid. This is a false manta that Trump and his right wing cronies desperately want you to believe. ITS WRONG!

There is ABSOLUTELY NO requirement in US Federal Law that needs a crime to have been committed for the FBI to begin an investigation. There only needs to be a suspicion of possible wrongdoing. Furthermore, even if it is later found that the original suspicion arose from fraudulent misrepresentation, that does not invalidate the investigation; any wrongdoing found as a result of the original investigation also has to be investigated.

For example, a person goes missing. Do you really believe that the Police are precluded from investigating because a crime has not been shown to have been committed? The person could be missing for any number of reasons, e.g. they left town, they got lost in a forest, they fell down a well, they were abducted, they were murdered. Until you find the person (or the body) you have no way of knowing, so the Police will need to investigate to find out what happened to them.

Now, if it later turns out that the person who went missing was, say, part of a fraudulent attempt to fake a murder to collect an insurance payout, then THAT also has to be investigated, even though the original premise for the investigation, a missing person enquiry, was a fraud. What you are suggesting is that the missing persons case should be closed, and no further investigation of the fraud is warranted. Do you really believe that?

This false mantra being repeated by Trump/Barr/Giuliani is the same as the mantra that a person cannot commit obstruction of justice if they have not committed an underlying crime. This also is simply, and completely untrue.


18 USC§1505. Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees
Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress—

Shall be fined under this title.......​

See where it says "endeavours to"? This means that attempting to obstruct justice is obstruction of justice; a crime in and of itself. This is black letter law.
 
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