ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 10th June 2019, 03:37 PM   #3121
The_Animus
Illuminator
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,049
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Well.... considering how the whole discourse seems to keep falling back to Biden in every single discussion I enter, I'm gonna say he's most likely to be the Democratic nominee.
The candidates you mention don't get a lot of mainstream media attention. Combine that with the sheer number of people running and most people either don't know they are running or they recognize the name but know nothing about them. I've donated to multiple campaigns and looked at longer form interviews with several candidates including less well known ones such as Yang and Gabbard but there are still many candidates I know next to nothing about.

It is really unfortunate because some of them have some good ideas.

Last edited by The_Animus; 10th June 2019 at 03:44 PM.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 06:27 PM   #3122
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,090
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
The candidates you mention don't get a lot of mainstream media attention. Combine that with the sheer number of people running and most people either don't know they are running or they recognize the name but know nothing about them. I've donated to multiple campaigns and looked at longer form interviews with several candidates including less well known ones such as Yang and Gabbard but there are still many candidates I know next to nothing about.

It is really unfortunate because some of them have some good ideas.
Kinda need a little more out of a President than "has some good ideas."

They are part of a growing trend that I find irritating, running for President as a pre-interview for an administration position (and/or use their delegate count to leverage their way into said position in the backrooms at the convention).
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 06:47 PM   #3123
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,538
Yawn. Wake me up when it's November or so. Or later. In the meantime, if polled I'll support my governor and former congress-critter, because he's got no chance at all. He did, at least, give me the chance to vote entirely legally in two different congressional districts in the same election.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 08:04 PM   #3124
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Quote:
...why Biden is polling so well. It really is quite simple: fear.

Fear that Donald might win again. Remember he was supposed to lose in 2016...

Biden... isn't a woman so dudes with goatees might actually vote Dem again...

So, here we are, with people so scared that we might get four more years of concentration camps, corruption and racism that they flock to the candidate that seems to be most assured of victory.
More commonly ,I suspect, it's the same calculus being applied that is always applied; Candidate X may have greater personal appeal, but has a much slimmer apparent chance of attaining a position to fulfill their promises so getting behind the less desirable candidate that can actually fulfill some of their goals makes the most sense.

Even Democrats with goatees (or VanDykes) can do that math.
This idea of electability is, in addition to being hopelessly circular (he has the support because he's electable because he has the support because he's electable because he has the support), simply can not serve as the explanation for supporting a political clone of the loser who found a way to lose with a winning hand last time. That's precisely the losing path that people who are primarily motivated by fear of losing again would be running away from screaming. Fear of what happened before causes avoidance of the traumatizing circumstances, not duplication. There's definitely something else. The only question is what.

I have my suspicion but no objective way at the moment to determine its accuracy or its odds of being correct compared to some hypothetical alternative. Remember that one of the things about him that make it so peculiar is that he's openly declared his overt contempt for a large chunk of the Democrat voter population (young adults), and his supporters didn't care because they weren't in that group; they're old. Just look at the videos from his public appearances: the audiences seem to consist entirely of great-grandparent-aged people. (His numbers have slid in the last couple of polls, but too late to be a result of this issue.) They were the voters whose votes got the country into its current state, which they see younger people saying isn't good for them and needs to be fixed, sometimes even complete with explicitly putting the blame right on them, the older voters (but it's a simple enough implication to figure out even when it's not made explicit). They see themselves getting attacked in a war of age groups (with other old candidates like Sanders & Warren joining the other side), and one of the classic human defensive reactions is to dig in and insist on sticking to the same old position.

That "digging in" tendency might be even stronger in the case of denial about having done stuff that's detrimental to your own kids & grandkids; notice how rare it is for people who refused to get medical help for their sick kids, but just kept praying while those kids died, to eventually admit "I killed my kid". That's a really long leap for a human brain to make, no matter how loudly the facts scream it in your face.

* * *

What stereotyped group is imagined as having goatees and being misogynist? I thought goatees were supposed to usually be stereotyped as belonging to a certain type of lefty. Is this one type of lefty calling another type of lefty misogynist in a specific left-vs-left thing I haven't encountered before? Or is it meant to describe some imagined goatee-wearing righty stereotype I've never encountered before? And either way, how was anybody outside of the little enclave circulating this new stereotype among themselves ever expected to know about it? Are we supposed to know this group's secret handshake and password, too?

* * *

Hillary wasn't "supposed to win" according to anybody who was paying attention to the facts instead of just substituting their own wishes in the place of the facts. The polls were right all along. She never showed any particular sign of having much electability at any time.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 08:08 PM   #3125
The_Animus
Illuminator
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,049
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Kinda need a little more out of a President than "has some good ideas."

They are part of a growing trend that I find irritating, running for President as a pre-interview for an administration position (and/or use their delegate count to leverage their way into said position in the backrooms at the convention).
Every candidate has strengths and weaknesses, areas where they are more or less knowledgeable. I'll take candidates with some good ideas over candidates with some bad ideas or no ideas at all who just promote the status quo. The latter are the ones who shouldn't have entered in the first place.

Even if they don't win the presidency. If they bring those good ideas to the public consciousness or get in the administration and work to implement them from there that's still progress.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 08:41 PM   #3126
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,887
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
This idea of electability is, in addition to being hopelessly circular (he has the support because he's electable because he has the support because he's electable because he has the support), simply can not serve as the explanation for supporting a political clone of the loser who found a way to lose with a winning hand last time. That's precisely the losing path that people who are primarily motivated by fear of losing again would be running away from screaming. Fear of what happened before causes avoidance of the traumatizing circumstances, not duplication. There's definitely something else. The only question is what.

I have my suspicion but no objective way at the moment to determine its accuracy or its odds of being correct compared to some hypothetical alternative. Remember that one of the things about him that make it so peculiar is that he's openly declared his overt contempt for a large chunk of the Democrat voter population (young adults), and his supporters didn't care because they weren't in that group; they're old. Just look at the videos from his public appearances: the audiences seem to consist entirely of great-grandparent-aged people. (His numbers have slid in the last couple of polls, but too late to be a result of this issue.) They were the voters whose votes got the country into its current state, which they see younger people saying isn't good for them and needs to be fixed, sometimes even complete with explicitly putting the blame right on them, the older voters (but it's a simple enough implication to figure out even when it's not made explicit). They see themselves getting attacked in a war of age groups (with other old candidates like Sanders & Warren joining the other side), and one of the classic human defensive reactions is to dig in and insist on sticking to the same old position.

That "digging in" tendency might be even stronger in the case of denial about having done stuff that's detrimental to your own kids & grandkids; notice how rare it is for people who refused to get medical help for their sick kids, but just kept praying while those kids died, to eventually admit "I killed my kid". That's a really long leap for a human brain to make, no matter how loudly the facts scream it in your face.

* * *

What stereotyped group is imagined as having goatees and being misogynist? I thought goatees were supposed to usually be stereotyped as belonging to a certain type of lefty. Is this one type of lefty calling another type of lefty misogynist in a specific left-vs-left thing I haven't encountered before? Or is it meant to describe some imagined goatee-wearing righty stereotype I've never encountered before? And either way, how was anybody outside of the little enclave circulating this new stereotype among themselves ever expected to know about it? Are we supposed to know this group's secret handshake and password, too?

* * *

Hillary wasn't "supposed to win" according to anybody who was paying attention to the facts instead of just substituting their own wishes in the place of the facts. The polls were right all along. She never showed any particular sign of having much electability at any time.
I think you are mistaken in one sense when tagging Biden as a "Hillary clone", while simultaneously being correct in another.
Hillary Clinton was a very popular target of the right for decades. The Rush Limbaughs of the media had been making her a target of their "two minutes of hate" since she was a potential FLOTUS. By the time she became a presidential candidate the tactic (and her inability to overcome the tactic-due primarily to a generally unappealing personality) had made her a seriously distasteful choice to many voters who would have found Trump completely unacceptable if they didn't find HRC even more distasteful. There were some "never Trump" abstainers, but there were also a great many "never Hillary" people throughout the Midwest and rust belt who would have brought themselves to vote against Trump had anyone but she been the Democratic nominee.

Biden doesn't provoke that kind of vitriol from the voters who will vote for a Democrat in order to get rid of Trump. In that way he is not a "Hillary clone" even though his policies and ties to the establishment are analogous.

As to the facial hair reference. I had no idea what the poster I was replying to had against those who wear a goatee. Like you, I was perplexed by the slight- wearing a VanDyke myself.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 09:41 PM   #3127
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,081
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
As to the facial hair reference. I had no idea what the poster I was replying to had against those who wear a goatee. Like you, I was perplexed by the slight- wearing a VanDyke myself.
I could be wrong, but I think the whole 'goatee' thing was a reference to an episode of Star Trek.... (Captain kirk goes to an alternate universe where everyone good is bad, and Spock is sporting a goatee. So people sometimes jokingly suggest anyone with a goatee is evil.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 12:14 AM   #3128
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Hillary Clinton was a very popular target of the right for decades. The Rush Limbaughs of the media had been making her a target of their "two minutes of hate" since she was a potential FLOTUS.
I've heard that the GOP mudslinging was going strong long, long before then. Back when Bill was the governor of Arkansas, for example.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 11th June 2019 at 12:17 AM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 12:44 AM   #3129
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,259
The history of criticism against HRC compared to that against Trump is very instructive:

Basically, anyone who bothered to get familiar with Trump knows that he is exactly the same scumbag that he has always been: he is not getting worse (except maybe mentally), his words (and few actions) just have so much more impact.

Compare that to HRC, who went from cold-hearted spouse to 'uppity First Wife playing politics' to political mastermind to criminal, sex-trafficker, satanist and baby ****** and eater.

In the interest of restoring balance, the Lamestream Media must finally tell us about Trump's daily puppy-burnings and him getting pegged by Melania whilst wearing a diaper!
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 06:33 PM   #3130
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Quinnipiac Poll: Trump Loses to All Democrats he's matched up against

Quote:
Today’s Quinnipiac poll finds all the better known Democratic candidates would defeat Donald Trump if the election were held today.

Joe Biden leads by 53% to 40%

Bernie Sanders 51%, Trump 42%
Kamala Harris 49%, Trump 41%
Elizabeth Warren 49%, Trump 42%
Pete Buttigieg 47%, Trump 42%
Cory Booker 47%, Trump 42%
Buttigieg Delivers Key Foreign Policy Speech

Quote:
Vox describes the speech as follows:

Quote:
Pete Buttigieg is the first Democratic presidential candidate to actually articulate foreign policy proposals beyond general themes and ideas.

His speech went much farther than any other 2020 Democratic candidate has so far in terms of policy specifics.
In content, it seems pretty solid, too.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 06:37 PM   #3131
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,007
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As long as I have Vox's opinion, I don't need to know the actual content.

The only lingering question I have is why you felt it necessary to add your superfluous endorsement to Vox's more than sufficient nod.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 06:55 PM   #3132
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,505
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Trump Loses the popular vote to All Democrats he's matched up against.
Just thought I'd fix that for you.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 07:19 PM   #3133
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
Biden is not a shoe-in. Some people sound like they are fine with the media picking the candidate.

Biden vs the current three tied for second place, he loses by a wide margin.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2019, 11:50 PM   #3134
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As long as I have Vox's opinion, I don't need to know the actual content.

The only lingering question I have is why you felt it necessary to add your superfluous endorsement to Vox's more than sufficient nod.
Hmm? What I quoted of Vox's opinion is that it's the most detailed so far, in short. My opinion was that the content itself seems solid. The two are not the same thing.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden is not a shoe-in. Some people sound like they are fine with the media picking the candidate.

Biden vs the current three tied for second place, he loses by a wide margin.
Minor addition to make that a non-trivial assertion. The "current three tied for second place" are largely pulling from the same group.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:20 AM   #3135
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,933
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I could be wrong, but I think the whole 'goatee' thing was a reference to an episode of Star Trek.... (Captain kirk goes to an alternate universe where everyone good is bad, and Spock is sporting a goatee. So people sometimes jokingly suggest anyone with a goatee is evil.)

Partially right. I often do mention goatees with that episode in mind.



It also stems from my experience in real life when a friend and I noticed in 2016 that every guy we knew with a goatee said he hated Trump but just could not vote for a woman because he felt it was too emasculating. We ended up calling this the "Goatee Liberal" faction that don't really like conservatives but also are too insecure to ever vote for a woman.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:22 AM   #3136
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,933
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden is not a shoe-in. Some people sound like they are fine with the media picking the candidate.

Biden vs the current three tied for second place, he loses by a wide margin.
My personal prediction is that Kamala picks up momentum after the debates at the expense of Biden. I also think Mayor Pete will pick up support after the debates.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:20 AM   #3137
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,659
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden is not a shoe-in. Some people sound like they are fine with the media picking the candidate.

Biden vs the current three tied for second place, he loses by a wide margin.
Unless they've changed the rules without me knowing it, the amount of votes of "the field" doesn't really matter. We have no numerical values on who'd be the second, third or fourth choice of those supporters. As the Republican Rodeo showed in 2016, a broader field means that no one's going to have a majority, but if they conveniently drop out one-by-one, the big loser becomes the big winner. Indeed, rather than the votes all going to a Trump opponent, some did but others went to Trump. He didn't have a majority in any state prior to April, I believe.

We haven't seen this crowded a field on the Dem side in more than 25 years, and that one featured homer-ism in the early bellwether states, so it's hard to compare, Bill Clinton had only one clear majority outside of the Old South before mid-March. That sounds early but there were 21 contests before then. Clinton got big majorities in the south but in the other fifteen primaries didn't fare nearly as well.

In short, counting everyone who doesn't currently support Biden or any candidate as being "against" them is a mistake. The second tier might group their strength if two were to pull out after Iowa, but they'd have to make it clear that they were standing for the progressive left and wanted to all gang up on the center. Since each of those three is planning on becoming the clear leader of that segment, it ain't gonna happen.

ETA: It's "shoo in".
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 07:12 AM   #3138
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,186
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The second tier might group their strength if two were to pull out after Iowa, but they'd have to make it clear that they were standing for the progressive left and wanted to all gang up on the center. Since each of those three is planning on becoming the clear leader of that segment, it ain't gonna happen.

ETA: It's "shoo in".
Sanders and Warren will probably team up, I think:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...en-2020-919825

Quote:
"BLOOMINGTON, Ind. — Bernie Sanders says he speaks with Elizabeth Warren nearly every day — just not about 2020."
Quote:
"...with some progressive activists alarmed that they might split the vote, allowing a more moderate Democrat to win the nomination — Sanders suggested Friday that a pre-2020 discussion among like-minded potential candidates could be forthcoming.

Asked whether he and other progressive contenders should hold talks in an effort to ensure one of them prevails, Sanders told POLITICO, “I suspect that in the coming weeks and months, there will be discussions.”
They go way back, too:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...p4N/story.html

Quote:
“They were kindred spirits, that’s for darn sure,” recalled the station’s longtime owner, Ken Squier, of those radio shows back in 2003 and 2004. Said Warren: “We sometimes could finish each other’s sentences.”
Quote:
"The two first met nearly two decades ago when Warren was invited to speak at a dinner party for liberal lawmakers at the Washington home of Representative Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat."

"Over the years, Warren returned several times to DeLauro’s dinner salons, offering her views on the economic forces chipping away at the middle class. Sanders was there every time, she said. Then they talked in his office and by phone. “It was organic,” Warren said of the relationship. “It kind of grew up.”
Also, about 2015:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ura68TWO7ZHW0Y
Quote:
"Press said that Sanders felt passionately that progressive issues such as stemming income inequality should be front and center in the Democratic primary.
“Somebody had to do it, and if somebody else did it, fine,” Press said. “If Elizabeth Warren had run, I’m pretty confident in saying Bernie Sanders never would have run.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...Icsz4G6y0mlwPc
Quote:
"Sugarman suggested his friend would not have entered the race, saying that had Warren run, she would have saved the Vermont senator “a lot of anguish
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 08:26 AM   #3139
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,659
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd take a lot of those statements with a grain of salt. If Warren does really well in Iowa, do you think Bernie drops out with NH coming up? NH will be the real Bernie v. Elizabeth test - they're both from neighboring states, but Bernie's got a solid base their historically.

I can see one or the other supporting the remaining one when whittling down time comes but what I was suggesting was like the move in Alaska last GE when one of the candidates dropped out so the Dem vote wasn't split.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 08:34 AM   #3140
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,081
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In the interest of restoring balance, the Lamestream Media must finally tell us about Trump's daily puppy-burnings and him getting pegged by Melania whilst wearing a diaper!
Wait a sec... is it Melania wearing the diaper in that scenario or Trump?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 08:41 AM   #3141
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,186
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'd take a lot of those statements with a grain of salt. If Warren does really well in Iowa, do you think Bernie drops out with NH coming up? NH will be the real Bernie v. Elizabeth test - they're both from neighboring states, but Bernie's got a solid base their historically.

I can see one or the other supporting the remaining one when whittling down time comes but what I was suggesting was like the move in Alaska last GE when one of the candidates dropped out so the Dem vote wasn't split.
I really don't take them with a grain of salt. I really believe one will drop out to support the other, with the latest date being "early in the primaries".

I like them both immensely, though, and I know they share economics advisers, and I really think they both care more about the policies getting through than they do about being "the one" themselves. JMO. Hope I'm right, though!
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 08:44 AM   #3142
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 12,700
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
... snipped for relevalnce ...

In the interest of restoring balance, the Lamestream Media must finally tell us about Trump's daily puppy-burnings and him getting pegged by Melania whilst wearing a diaper!
I would not be a bit surprised if Putin has such things on tape when Trump visited Russia and stayed in that FSB/KGB controlled hotel.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:49 PM   #3143
Tero
Graduate Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 1,498
Some of my thoughts on patriotism, copied from elsewhere:

Problems come from appearances. Trump appears patriotic to his fans. it is difficult to understand that most of them do not see it as a con. He represents them, whether he is sincere or not!

Bush was not as good as Trump at appearances, though Trump hugging a flag and Bush landing on an aircraft carrier amounts to the same. Just showmanship.

Trump's fight against "foreigners" and "China" or "Mexico" is seen as patriotic. This is a problem. We need to deal with immigrants in some manner, and the Democrats better get a clear message on that soon. Biden could use to his advantage the fact that Obama deported 2.5 million illegals.

Trump plans big Fourth of July celebrations in 2019 and 2020. presidents normally do not participate. I hope the people will come to see that it is now ALL ABOUT TRUMP. He is stealing our national holiday!
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #3144
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Hmm? What I quoted of Vox's opinion is that it's the most detailed so far, in short. My opinion was that the content itself seems solid. The two are not the same thing.



Minor addition to make that a non-trivial assertion. The "current three tied for second place" are largely pulling from the same group.
But that doesn't mean those voters can't coalesce behind one of the three before the primary. If Biden wins because the competition is split, that doesn't bode well. We wouldn't have the best candidate to be the next POTUS.

All these people running surely believe Trump is low-hanging fruit to run against. That worries me as well.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:19 PM   #3145
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,505
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden is not a shoe-in. Some people sound like they are fine with the media picking the candidate.
Plenty of the left media in full attack mode on Creepy Joe - HuffPo and TruthDig, to name a couple.

I think he's dead in the water at this stage as well. Despite massive coverage, money & effort, he hasn't improved his numbers since he wasn't officially in the race.

I'd be pushing Warren as hard as possible if I were on the ground there.

I like her more and more as time goes on and I think she has the class to rise above Trump and his filth. Buttgieg as Veep.

A bitch and a faggot - the evangelical right will all have apoplexy if that happened.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:41 PM   #3146
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
I agree there is some negative news coverage of Biden. But there is not enough news coverage of the other candidates. You see Trump vs Biden.

And my complaint includes a lot of repeating about Biden being ahead in the polls.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 05:56 PM   #3147
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,505
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I agree there is some negative news coverage of Biden. But there is not enough news coverage of the other candidates. You see Trump vs Biden.

And my complaint includes a lot of repeating about Biden being ahead in the polls.
If I were a US voter, I'd vote for Trump over Biden, and I'm a fair bit left of Trotsky.

Socially and economically, I don't see Biden as much of an improvement, and the sheer weight of LULZ that exist with Trump as POTUS outweighs voting for a champagne socialist who indulges in exactly the same type of idiot language as Trump anyway.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 06:48 PM   #3148
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,159
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I agree there is some negative news coverage of Biden. But there is not enough news coverage of the other candidates. You see Trump vs Biden.

And my complaint includes a lot of repeating about Biden being ahead in the polls.
I think the negative language against Biden will go away once he becomes the presumptive nominee. In a Trump-Biden race, the negatives can be easily dealt with by large negative ad buys on social media against Trump. Being too huggy can be silence by being president pussy grabber ads.
Craig4 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 06:57 PM   #3149
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,212
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I think the negative language against Biden will go away once he becomes the presumptive nominee.
They'll certain apply all the polish they can to the turd, but will it be enough?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 07:29 PM   #3150
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If I were a US voter, I'd vote for Trump over Biden, and I'm a fair bit left of Trotsky.

Socially and economically, I don't see Biden as much of an improvement, and the sheer weight of LULZ that exist with Trump as POTUS outweighs voting for a champagne socialist who indulges in exactly the same type of idiot language as Trump anyway.
While Trump's out there getting press attention for being crazy, the rest of them are quietly gutting federal lands including threatening National Parks, no doubt Trump has cronies profiting from that. They have ruined the lives of Hispanic immigrants who were not harming anyone and could have been dealt with humanely. They've rolled back any and every pollution regulation that any corporation wanted regardless of what they were discharging into the water and air. Trump is also raiding funds for any number of programs. And he's literally flooding the federal courts with people on a list from the Federalist Society; things won't need to be decided by SCOTUS, all the lower courts will rule in favor of corporations and Evangelical religious beliefs all the way up the line. It'll be like a swarm of little Scalias all over the court system. And the Democrats can't stop McConnell filling every open seat they filibustered during Obama's administration. And they are eroding LGBTQ rights. Then there is the risk of an even more biased SCOTUS.

Then there is the attempt to skew the Census so the GOP can gerrymander even more districts and make the Democrats votes count for an even smaller fraction of what GOP votes are worth.

I don't think that's the whole list, that's just off the top of my head.

So even if you are not in the US and this doesn't apply to you, hopefully anyone reading it that thinks Trump is a harmless dufus will think again!
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th June 2019 at 07:43 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 10:54 PM   #3151
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Plenty of the left media in full attack mode on Creepy Joe - HuffPo and TruthDig, to name a couple.

I think he's dead in the water at this stage as well. Despite massive coverage, money & effort, he hasn't improved his numbers since he wasn't officially in the race.

I'd be pushing Warren as hard as possible if I were on the ground there.

I like her more and more as time goes on and I think she has the class to rise above Trump and his filth. Buttgieg as Veep.

A bitch and a faggot - the evangelical right will all have apoplexy if that happened.
Meh. I've been favoring Warren/Buttigieg the most for a while... and for reasons that have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. Those parts are nice perks, though!

Also, looks like Warren's actually at the top of the pack when it comes to how favorably Democrats look at a candidate -

Quote:
For instance, they asked Democratic primary intended voters to list all the candidates they were considering supporting / would be disappointed to see win. Here are those numbers: (parentheses shows considering-disappointed margin)

Warren: 45/9 (+36)

Biden: 50/19 (+31)
Harris: 39/8 (+31)
Buttigieg: 34/10 (+24)
Sanders: 38/21 (+17)
O'Rourke: 24/11 (+13)

Booker: 23/11 (+12)
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I agree there is some negative news coverage of Biden. But there is not enough news coverage of the other candidates. You see Trump vs Biden.
Yeah... When MSM coverage of Biden has been roughly equal to or greater than every other Democratic Party candidate combined for weeks on end, that's a problem in and of itself.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 12:31 AM   #3152
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,505
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So even if you are not in the US and this doesn't apply to you, hopefully anyone reading it that thinks Trump is a harmless dufus will think again!
None of your list appears to be a major election issue.

[quote=Aridas;12724725]Also, looks like Warren's actually at the top of the pack when it comes to how favorably Democrats look at a candidate -

A few people might be waking up, then.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 12:53 AM   #3153
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If I were a US voter, I'd vote for Trump over Biden, and I'm a fair bit left of Trotsky.
Well, then, I'm glad that a person like you, who apparently think it's funny to see multiple mass murders against people based on skin color, ethnicity, or religion, isn't a US voter.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 01:34 AM   #3154
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,160
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nice Goal Post move, bro.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 11:24 AM   #3155
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,505
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, then, I'm glad that a person like you, who apparently think it's funny to see multiple mass murders against people based on skin color, ethnicity, or religion, isn't a US voter.
Trump has committed mass murder?

I must have missed the news that day.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nice Goal Post move, bro.
What utter tosh - I didn't have any goalposts to move.

Ginger listed some bad things he's done. None of them are bad enough to sway voters and none of them outweigh the LULZ he's giving the rest of the world.

Just look what he's done for cetaceans. The man's even forging cross-species links.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 11:50 AM   #3156
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Trump has committed mass murder?

I must have missed the news that day.
You missed that Charlotesville neo-nazi riot and the Cristchurch shooting, both clearly inspired by the idiot?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 11:56 AM   #3157
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
First, so what? It still makes Trump the worst choice no matter how 'same old crap' Biden is.

Second, just like I said, while the distractor-in-chief is distracting all that **** is going on. The press is not doing its job. It's too happy with Trump TV.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...Ginger listed some bad things he's done. None of them are bad enough to sway voters and none of them outweigh the LULZ he's giving the rest of the world....
In response to YOU saying Biden was worse than Trump. It wasn't about who will win the election.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nice Goal Post move, bro.
Whole subject change.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, then, I'm glad that a person like you, who apparently think it's funny to see multiple mass murders against people based on skin color, ethnicity, or religion, isn't a US voter.
This too. I knew I was leaving something important out.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th June 2019 at 12:02 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 12:03 PM   #3158
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,312
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ginger listed some bad things he's done. None of them are bad enough to sway voters and none of them outweigh the LULZ he's giving the rest of the world.
I'm not sure stacking the Supreme Court with hard liners is very funny.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #3159
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,989
Biden again demonstrates he's not the right candidate: Joe Biden tells 13-year-old's brothers to 'keep the guys away from your sister'
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2019, 12:32 PM   #3160
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,212
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden again demonstrates he's not the right candidate: Joe Biden tells 13-year-old's brothers to 'keep the guys away from your sister'
"I'm not out of touch," Biden declared on Thursday, "I pay attention to all the news that comes over the telegraph! And lemme tell you, that Kaiser is in for what-fer, consarnit!" He then rushed away in a horse-drawn carriage to catch the next Jenny Lind performance.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:16 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.