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Old 12th June 2019, 12:20 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Skeptics now think they have psychic abilities. People self-segregate. Different people from different cultures and races value different things. Those values manifest themselves in interests. Those interests clash. The world it what it is, not the fantasy land you dream of.
...which is precisely what the racist trash I spoke of would say. You're merely proving my point.

Thanks!
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:34 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Right, I want people I can't stand to breed. Skeptics and their brilliant logic.
You can't stand whites?

Is that the sort of logic you're mastering?
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:35 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Words mean different things in different places.
They don't seem to mean much in yours.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:36 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
...which is precisely what the racist trash I spoke of would say. You're merely proving my point.

Thanks!
You think humanity is "racist trash." That's some high-octane misanthropy.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:37 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can't stand whites?

Is that the sort of logic you're mastering?
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:42 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is why I don't give links. No one here can understand what I've just told him.
Aw, you're so special.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:43 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
Given the blinders you have on, I'm sure you've only seen what you wanted to see. Also, I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Please don't breed.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:45 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The same way it would work in a small mono cultural country. Someone needs help, they get help, everyone else is contributing via taxes.


This really isn't that hard.
Yet it only works in small mono cultural countries. Even the UK's crown jewel--the NHS--kinda sucks compared to much smaller much less diverse countries. UK is ranked 109 most diverse countries. Smaller and less diverse countries like Sweden (128), Finland (142), Denmark (144), Norway (146), Netherlands (151) have much better welfare programs than those of the failing UK. Top 50 most diverse countries, those are what's called ****holes.


This really isn't that simple.

Last edited by Baylor; 12th June 2019 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:46 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given the blinders you have on, I'm sure you've only seen what you wanted to see. Also, I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Please don't breed.
Too late
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:53 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Multi-racial societies are not conducive to welfare states and the excellent research I cited proved that.

I am highly aware you have been conditioned by your masters to say "race has nothing to do with it." But the fact is welfare states break down in multi-racial societies. Can anyone on this forum get over their conditioning for two seconds and have a conversation like adult?
The research you cited not only doesnt prove it, it doesn't even mention welfare states or welfare once.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:00 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yet it only works in small mono cultural countries. Even the UK's crown jewel--the NHS--kinda sucks compared to much smaller much less diverse countries. UK is ranked 109 most diverse countries. Smaller and less diverse countries like Sweden (128), Denmark (144), Norway (146), Netherlands (151) have much better welfare programs than those of the failing UK. Top 50 most diverse countries, those are what's called ****holes.


This really isn't that simple.
It's certainly not simple enough for you, that's clear.

First adjust for percent of GDP spent on the above and then tell me what the remaining effect of diversity is.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:06 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The research you cited not only doesnt prove it, it doesn't even mention welfare states or welfare once.
Public goods, redistributive properties. Semantics. Just keep up the bumper sticker slogans. I like to study brainwashing.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:18 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The research you cited not only doesn't prove it, it doesn't even mention welfare states or welfare once.
And it's not supported by other research.

Quote:
Does diversity endanger democracy? Ethnic composition is often thought to affect democracy by means of its influence on the probability of violent civil conflict. According to such thinking, more diverse societies are more prone to conflict, which in turn makes them less hospitable to democracy. How sound is this idea? This article tests it, performing quantitative analysis on data from the post-communist region. The study finds that conflict is negatively associated with democracy, but finds no empirical evidence that social fractionalization influences civil conflict or democratization. In fact, a concluding case study on Bulgaria suggests that diversity may actually ‘impose’ certain opportunities for – not just obstacles to – the emergence of practices and institutions that promote open politics.
https://polisci.berkeley.edu/sites/d...dDemocracy.pdf
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:32 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You think humanity is "racist trash." That's some high-octane misanthropy.
Nah, bro, try reading for comprehension without your ever present bias distorting what I am saying (if you're not already too indoctrinated, that is. LOL!):

I think Racist Trash is "racist trash".

Duh.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:39 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
Yeah, communicating with some unknown strangers (who could be misrepresenting themselves as, well...anything) through the Internet is the ideal way to get to know what people are like, European or otherwise.

Much better than that inferior real world face to face interaction.

Your knowledge on other people must be unsurpassed with so many keyboard/mouse hour logged; I bet you're the world's expert, momma's basement socialite in the world and I look forward to your dissertation.

Science!

LMFAO!!!
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:39 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nah, bro, try reading for comprehension without your ever present bias distorting what I am saying (if you're not already too indoctrinated, that is. LOL!):

I think Racist Trash is "racist trash".

Duh.
Who's "racist trash?" People who prefer to be around their own race? Like a virtually all white skeptic forum.

Ever been to a TAM? It's nearly all white. Talk about "racist trash."

Last edited by Baylor; 12th June 2019 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:42 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Yeah, communicating with some unknown strangers (who could be misrepresenting themselves as, well...anything) through the Internet is the ideal way to get to know what people are like, European or otherwise.

Much better than that inferior real world face to face interaction.
No one said "ideal." You must be imagining things.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:48 AM   #218
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That's better! My view of this thread just got a LOT shorter.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:49 AM   #219
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Baylor, what is your definition of race?
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:51 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's certainly not simple enough for you, that's clear.

First adjust for percent of GDP spent on the above and then tell me what the remaining effect of diversity is.
Try to think how this proves my point.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:53 AM   #221
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"The Scandinavian system won't work because of diversity" trope is definitely popular one but it's flawed. Problem is in America we have a country built on hierarchy and supremacy. What these studies don't acknowledge is that these socialistic/Scandinavian economic systems diminish the inherent tendency to develop hierarchies.

In other words these societies would be more collaborative on a foundational level and the discontent often cited is a direct result of the hierarchical thinking that capitalism (and similar economic theories) tends to sew...
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:06 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Who's "racist trash?" People who prefer to be around their own race? Like a virtually all white skeptic forum.

Ever been to a TAM? It's nearly all white. Talk about "racist trash."
Racist Trash are Racist Trash. That's literally what I just said earlier and honestly I'm dumbfounded that you evidently have trouble parsing that.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:09 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No one said "ideal." You must be imagining things.
Hey, I'm just basing it on the fact that you are the one naive enough to make judgments of a large group of people based on mere....Internet....interactions.

Evidence:

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
Don't say stupid things and I won't call you out for saying...stupid things. LOL!

The mind boggles at your inanity.

LMFAO!!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:10 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
"The Scandinavian system won't work because of diversity" trope is definitely popular one but it's flawed. Problem is in America we have a country built on hierarchy and supremacy. What these studies don't acknowledge is that these socialistic/Scandinavian economic systems diminish the inherent tendency to develop hierarchies.

In other words these societies would be more collaborative on a foundational level and the discontent often cited is a direct result of the hierarchical thinking that capitalism (and similar economic theories) tends to sew...
Finally, a serious reply. Thanks for that. Wish mods would do something about hissy fits being thrown by the boomer manchildren.

I disagree with your conclusion but even if I were to cede that point, I said population size still plays a huge role. Even excluding diversity, "socialism" will look very differently in a country of 11 million than that of a country of 330 million. The US has more than double the population of the next most populace "developed country." So it's no surprise socialism is more efficient in these small countries.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:11 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Racist Trash are Racist Trash. That's literally what I just said earlier and honestly I'm dumbfounded that you evidently have trouble parsing that.
No, you're just throwing a fit that'll get dumped into AAH.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:12 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Hey, I'm just basing it on the fact that you are the one naive enough to make judgments of a large group of people based on mere....Internet....interactions.

Evidence:



Don't say stupid things and I won't call you out for saying...stupid things. LOL!

The mind boggles at your inanity.

LMFAO!!
So not offensive. Just save the effort this is getting dumped soon.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:25 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Too late
Oh, it's never too late.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:26 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So not offensive. Just save the effort this is getting dumped soon.
It was not my intent to be offensive. My intent was to point out where you are wrong.

Which I managed to do, whether you'll admit it or not.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:27 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No, you're just throwing a fit that'll get dumped into AAH.
That's literally what I said, yet you twist it into some odd comment about demographics of a TAM meeting.

Try staying on topic, bro.

Oh, and I'll add: The demographic make up of a TAM meeting is not under any individual attendee's control, so by what "logic" do you conclude this makes that attendee into "racist trash"?

Of course, you then deflect to how you're not offended by what I say....Not even bothering to try defend your indefensible position after I've pointed out how wrong you are, huh? LOL!

Last edited by Cabbage; 12th June 2019 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:47 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
"The Scandinavian system won't work because of diversity" trope is definitely popular one but it's flawed. Problem is in America we have a country built on hierarchy and supremacy. What these studies don't acknowledge is that these socialistic/Scandinavian economic systems diminish the inherent tendency to develop hierarchies.

In other words these societies would be more collaborative on a foundational level and the discontent often cited is a direct result of the hierarchical thinking that capitalism (and similar economic theories) tends to sew...
So are you saying that healthcare for all (among other things that are normal everywhere in the world other than in the USA) wouldn't work in the USA because the people are fundamentally lacking solidarity?
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Quote:
Actually yes it is the case.

The U.S. system does have major problems... its extremely expensive, and a huge segment of the population does not get adequate coverage. So I'm not trying to absolve the U.S. or claim it system is "best in the world'.
...
Again, I'm not necessarily saying the U.S. system is perfect and doesn't need to be fixed. (The best systems in the world give universal coverage, but combine private and public systems.) I'm just saying that most people do get good medical care in the U.S., and I can't blame a person if they worry about the potential of losing that good medical care (for themselves) that they currently in order to go to a single-payer system (with its wait list problems) just because "well, everyone will be the same".
Why would they lose that? Nobody would stop them buying private healthcare if they want it.
Actually yes, someone is trying to stop them from buying private health care. His name is Bernie Sanders.

Under the Sanders health care plan (and one that seems to be supported by Warren, Booker, Gillebrand and Harris), private insurance companies would be forbidden to cover anything that the government/public system covers. And Sander's plan basically covers pretty much all medical procedures, so there'd be nothing else really left for private insurance to cover.

Under his plan, its 'government funded or nothing'.

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...bernie-sanders
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is reintroducing his Medicare-for-all proposal in the Senate amid a raging debate in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary over abolishing (most) private health insurance. His bill, which four 2020 presidential candidates have signed on to (Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Cory Booker (D-NJ), Kamala Harris (D-CA) and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)) calls for private health insurance to be eliminated for almost all medical care.

From: https://www.latimes.com/business/laz...416-story.html
Sanders’ latest bill would establish universal coverage by opening the Medicare insurance system to all. It would expand current benefits.... It also would prohibit private plans from competing with the government program....While that might be satisfying on a karmic level — payback for all the denied claims and acts of greed — it discards the potential benefits of competition. We know from the example of some other developed countries that private insurers can bolster and supplement a state-run insurance program. “The most successful international models take a hybrid approach,” said Dana Goldman, director of the USC Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics.

About the only thing that he would allow private funding for are things that are medically unnecessary (like cosmetic surgery). So, your favorite dancer at the local strip joint could get her breast implants whenever she wanted, but everyone else would have to go through the government-funded/government-controlled system (which, as the only major western country in the world who has implemented a single-payer system shows, results in waiting lists.)

Here's the problem... when people hear 'single payer' they assume you mean 'universal coverage'. The 2 things are different. Universal coverage can be obtained without going to a 'single payer' system. The best systems in the world mix private and public health care. Sanders wants to forgo that and replace a bad system (the U.S., probably the worst system in the world) with a system that is arguably the second worst system in the world. Why not replace it with a system which is actually BETTER than either of the 2?
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:33 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually yes, someone is trying to stop them from buying private health care. His name is Bernie Sanders.

Under the Sanders health care plan (and one that seems to be supported by Warren, Booker, Gillebrand and Harris), private insurance companies would be forbidden to cover anything that the government/public system covers. And Sander's plan basically covers pretty much all medical procedures, so there'd be nothing else really left for private insurance to cover.

Under his plan, its 'government funded or nothing'.

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...bernie-sanders
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is reintroducing his Medicare-for-all proposal in the Senate amid a raging debate in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary over abolishing (most) private health insurance. His bill, which four 2020 presidential candidates have signed on to (Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Cory Booker (D-NJ), Kamala Harris (D-CA) and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)) calls for private health insurance to be eliminated for almost all medical care.

From: https://www.latimes.com/business/laz...416-story.html
Sanders’ latest bill would establish universal coverage by opening the Medicare insurance system to all. It would expand current benefits.... It also would prohibit private plans from competing with the government program....While that might be satisfying on a karmic level — payback for all the denied claims and acts of greed — it discards the potential benefits of competition. We know from the example of some other developed countries that private insurers can bolster and supplement a state-run insurance program. “The most successful international models take a hybrid approach,” said Dana Goldman, director of the USC Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics.

About the only thing that he would allow private funding for are things that are medically unnecessary (like cosmetic surgery). So, your favorite dancer at the local strip joint could get her breast implants whenever she wanted, but everyone else would have to go through the government-funded/government-controlled system (which, as the only major western country in the world who has implemented a single-payer system shows, results in waiting lists.)

Here's the problem... when people hear 'single payer' they assume you mean 'universal coverage'. The 2 things are different. Universal coverage can be obtained without going to a 'single payer' system. The best systems in the world mix private and public health care. Sanders wants to forgo that and replace a bad system (the U.S., probably the worst system in the world) with a system that is arguably the second worst system in the world. Why not replace it with a system which is actually BETTER than either of the 2?
The Medicare for all plan just says:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/1384
Quote:
Additionally, private health insurers and employers may only offer coverage that is supplemental to, and not duplicative of, benefits provided under the program.
It sounds like it's going to set up a system like the UK has, where there is private insurance available, but it's just for the luxury stuff.

That would be a GREAT improvement over what we have here now, where millions have NO access to health care outside of the ER, and many millions more have grossly inadequate access to health care.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:40 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The Medicare for all plan just says:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/1384
Additionally, private health insurers and employers may only offer coverage that is supplemental to, and not duplicative of, benefits provided under the program.

It sounds like it's going to set up a system like the UK has, where there is private insurance available, but it's just for the luxury stuff.
No, its not a UK-like system.

In the UK, you can get private insurance for things that ARE covered under the public system. (You may get faster access, or a higher quality of care). Under the Sanders proposal, that will not be allowed.

You can't (for example) buy private insurance to get special access to a doctor or for MRI diagnostics because that would be considered "duplicative"... both are for the same benefits.

Seriously, how can you not understand that?

The system that it mimics is not the U.K. system (where you can get private insurance for stuff that the public system also covers), but the Canadian system (where you can't get private insurance, and waiting lists abound.)

ETA: People are wondering why "people fear socialism"... perhaps one of the reasons is that those hyping those policies don't really understand what those policies mean.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:50 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, its not a UK-like system.

In the UK, you can get private insurance for things that ARE covered under the public system. (You may get faster access, or a higher quality of care). Under the Sanders proposal, that will not be allowed.

You can't (for example) buy private insurance to get special access to a doctor or for MRI diagnostics because that would be considered "duplicative"... both are for the same benefits.

Seriously, how can you not understand that?

The system that it mimics is not the U.K. system (where you can get private insurance for stuff that the public system also covers), but the Canadian system (where you can't get private insurance, and waiting lists abound.)
Things like "fast track access to knee and hip replacements" would be different from what was covered by Medicare. Same with "access to luxury, private hospitals."

The details of this stuff have yet to be worked out in squillions of pages of legalese. The bill as it stands now is really vague in terms of what qualifies as "duplication".
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:51 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
ETA: People are wondering why "people fear socialism"... perhaps one of the reasons is that those hyping opposing those policies don't really understand what those policies mean.
FTFY.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:57 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Finally, a serious reply. Thanks for that. Wish mods would do something about hissy fits being thrown by the boomer manchildren.

I disagree with your conclusion but even if I were to cede that point, I said population size still plays a huge role. Even excluding diversity, "socialism" will look very differently in a country of 11 million than that of a country of 330 million. The US has more than double the population of the next most populace "developed country." So it's no surprise socialism is more efficient in these small countries.
The united states has been socially oriented to view minorities antagonistically but I see no reason that orientation couldn't change in time. We'd have to reorient the criminal justice system towards rehabilitation and not punishment and end the drug war to maximize the usefulness of social programs but these social programs would help raise the floor for all of society, which in and of itself would aid societal solidarity. The dog eat dog mentality is a prominent feature of capitalism...

Originally Posted by Tommok View Post
So are you saying that healthcare for all (among other things that are normal everywhere in the world other than in the USA) wouldn't work in the USA because the people are fundamentally lacking solidarity?
Nope. I'm saying the exact opposite.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:07 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Re: Americans currently with health care coverage.
Quote:
I believe the number is >90%.
Only 60% of Americans are employed and only half of these jobs have insurance coverage. Medicare (single player government run insurance program) covers many more. Anyone else needs to go the to the expensive and inefficient private market if they want coverage.
First of all, I never claimed that the 90% was the percentage of people covered through work. I only said that 90% were covered. (I even pointed out that some were covered through medicare/obamacare/etc.)

Secondly, many people are covered not because they personally have coverage at work, but because they have a family member with work coverage. Approximately 155 million people in the U.S. (almost half the population) have employer-based health care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health..._United_States
Quote:
Quote:
To those who are in Canada (where we have single-payer health care), will the government sign off on everything they need?
In Canada procedures are not approved/rejected on an individual basis.
Actually I wasn't thinking of the government signing off on procedures on an individual basis. My argument is that the government makes decisions that impact patients in a broad, overall way, that gives the patient absolutely no recourse.

For example, the government won't decide "Patient X should have an MRI", but they will decide "How many MRIs should be available in the province/how many hospital beds and operating rooms should be available/should we cover some new treatment?" And those decisions DO impact patients.

Consider for example MRI machines... Canada has on average 9 MRI machines per million people (and wait lists for their use that can last months)... the U.S. 35 per million people. Somewhere along the line the government had to make a decision. "This is how many we will fund", and individual people have no recourse if they decide "that's unacceptable... I'm in pain and need a diagnostic done now". They have to follow what the government dictates.

Quote:
Medical outcomes in Canada match or slightly exceed those of the US.
That Canada does better than the U.S. is not something I disagree with. My issue is that whenever people discuss health care they think its either "All Canadian or all American", ignoring the fact that there are systems that are superior to both.

Sanders wants to replace one broken American system with another one that's almost as broken (slightly better in some ways, worse in others.)

But then what do I know? After all, I'm foolish enough to think severe pain is something that should be avoided, while you, in your infinite wisdom think its just "an annoyance". And I think having an untreated condition that increases the risk of stroke should be addressed quickly, whereas you seem to think "no big deal.. who cares?"
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:14 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
...replace one broken American system with another one that's almost as broken (slightly better in some ways, worse in others.)
The single payer systems would have to be REALLY REALLY bad to compete with this:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...alth-coverage/

Quote:
Nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance, according to a new study published online today by the American Journal of Public Health. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.
I've yet to see evidence that it's even remotely comparable.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Things like "fast track access to knee and hip replacements" would be different from what was covered by Medicare. Same with "access to luxury, private hospitals."

The details of this stuff have yet to be worked out in squillions of pages of legalese. The bill as it stands now is really vague in terms of what qualifies as "duplication".
I am really amazed at how much people are willing to stretch reality to try to fit their own misguided views.

Who said: "You are not going to be able, in the long run, to have cost-effective, universal health care unless you change the system, unless you get rid of the insurance companies"

Hint: His name rhymes with Sernie Banders.

Notice his words? He didn't say: "give people the option". He didn't say "make sure everyone is covered by either public or private". He specifically said "get rid of". GET RID OF.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...-be-eliminated
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:19 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Consider for example MRI machines... Canada has on average 9 MRI machines per million people (and wait lists for their use that can last months)... the U.S. 35 per million people. Somewhere along the line the government had to make a decision.
S Korea has single payer, and they have 3 times as many as Canada, too.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/
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