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Old 26th May 2019, 08:00 AM   #761
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
And maybe fairies come to cobbler's shops and make shoes while the cobbler sleeps...
Nope!!! It is elves that do
the shoe cobbling thing. Should know - seen it in a number of films over the years!!!
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:07 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
That's because if it could possibly be racisim, it is.

If it is evidence that people use that logic for their own ends we need to ignore it or be branded " one of those people who only calls things out when it is minorities. ".

Or as someone much more intelligent than I puts it " never let the truth get in the way of a good story. "
Yeah, I actually found it a little strange that posters only found the story interesting if the topic was white people being racist. Black people stealing and then publicly lying about it was a snoozer. Oh well.
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:40 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I don't know why people find that so hard to grasp (or maybe they do but won't admit it).

Lolada clearly could have had the cops out of her hair in two minutes or less. But the problem for her would have been that she wouldn't have had anything to "go public" with, no "fifteen minute interrogation". Sure, she could have made a formal complaint about Braasch to the college admin, but what would that have got her?
Indeed. A trivial interpersonal event like this becoming national news is a perfect encapsulation of just how deep into clown world we are now.

This should have been something Lolada was straining to even remember having happened, within 2 months of it taking place.

One of those little inconveniences or weird stories you recount a handful of times over the course of the rest of your life, at most.

And the national media playing along and helping blow this up, is the most ridiculous element of this by far. Of course, them doing so is 100% explained by her being black, but there's no actual evidence of racism at play here. And who would care if there were, btw? In a country of over 300 million and in a planet of over 7 billion, people will be crappy toward one another in various ways based on differences of all kinds that they have. So what?
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Old 26th May 2019, 12:45 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Simple question: If ID's do not have to be provided to people in positions of authority who request it, what is the point of having an ID in the first place?

ETA: From the Yale list of student offenses:
I can understand that being a against the university regulations, but I see no reason why those should have the force of law.

Which is why I have issues with police being involved at the start.
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Old 26th May 2019, 02:02 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can understand that being a against the university regulations, but I see no reason why those should have the force of law.

Which is why I have issues with police being involved at the start.
... which conveniently allows you to sidestep/ignore any question or doubt as to Siyonbola's motives if you feel like it.
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Old 26th May 2019, 02:06 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can understand that being a against the university regulations, but I see no reason why those should have the force of law.

Which is why I have issues with police being involved at the start.
Campus police. Who else would be enforcing something like this?

Look at it from the perspective of a dispatcher. Did they know it wasn't an actual intruder, a male on drugs with a criminal record and a knife, for instance? Or did they just hear "possible intruder in student housing" and they sent the campus police?
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:19 PM   #767
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University regulations should be civil matters.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:58 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
... which conveniently allows you to sidestep/ignore any question or doubt as to Siyonbola's motives if you feel like it.
For christ sake, she could have been a friggin anti-semite with a criminal record a mile long, and it still would have been the other person's responsibility for initiating it.

She was sleeping in the common room of her dorm. That's when it started. It wasn't her.
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Old 27th May 2019, 09:01 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
... which conveniently allows you to sidestep/ignore any question or doubt as to Siyonbola's motives if you feel like it.
Unlike you and ST, who are working on the National Award for Fiction with all the speculation.

Why don't you guys regale us again with all the possible things the scary black woman might have been up to? 'Cuz all the rest of us have is the actual written reports of what happened. "Woman sleeping in common room of her own dormitory. Awakened by paranoid territorial pain in the ass. Police called."

Nothing in there about "motives", is there? That's from your fevered imagination.
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:10 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Nope!!! It is elves that do
the shoe cobbling thing. Should know - seen it in a number of films over the years!!!
You are so right, I am corrected!
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:24 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
University regulations should be civil matters.
Trespassing is a criminal matter, though.
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:35 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
University regulations should be civil matters.
So if I decide to plant myself in a university library and not leave they should just let me?

Great solution to the homeless problem, not so much for a good educational environment.

Also you realize the anarchy that would cause right? Couple thousand bros told that the worst thing that can happen is a fine?

But I'm guessing your opinion rwally boils down to " universities should realize black folks have it rough, so they should let things slide for them. ". . But even you realize how stupid and racist the statement is out loud.
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:38 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Unlike you and ST, who are working on the National Award for Fiction with all the speculation.

Why don't you guys regale us again with all the possible things the scary black woman might have been up to? 'Cuz all the rest of us have is the actual written reports of what happened. "Woman sleeping in common room of her own dormitory. Awakened by paranoid territorial pain in the ass. Police called."

Nothing in there about "motives", is there? That's from your fevered imagination.
By your same logic Russian Roulette is safe.

" see I played and it turned out fine. Why don't you regale me with stories of how dangerous a silly game is. ".

Another way of putting it is you are being a Monday morning quarterback. They didn't know at the time everything was just a drama bomb.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:02 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trespassing is a criminal matter, though.
And determining whether the person is trespassing should not be down to university regulations.

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So if I decide to plant myself in a university library and not leave they should just let me?

Great solution to the homeless problem, not so much for a good educational environment.

Also you realize the anarchy that would cause right? Couple thousand bros told that the worst thing that can happen is a fine?

But I'm guessing your opinion rwally boils down to " universities should realize black folks have it rough, so they should let things slide for them. ". . But even you realize how stupid and racist the statement is out loud.

Nope. I see no reason why breaking university rules should not be dealt with by university punishments. Trespass is a different matter (however in England, even Trespass is a civil matter unless it's aggravated trespass, which is criminal).

My point was that the police were following university rules rather than enforcing laws. There is a difference, and one should not be the domain of the police.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:09 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And determining whether the person is trespassing should not be down to university regulations.
University regulations are literally the only thing that can properly determine trespassing on university property. It is purely the university's right, as owner/administrator of the property, to regulate who gets to go where. Ignoring the university's regulation is what makes you a trespasser. How else would you decide trespassing, except by the say of the rightful owner of the property, or their agent?
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:28 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And determining whether the person is trespassing should not be down to university regulations.




Nope. I see no reason why breaking university rules should not be dealt with by university punishments. Trespass is a different matter (however in England, even Trespass is a civil matter unless it's aggravated trespass, which is criminal).

My point was that the police were following university rules rather than enforcing laws. There is a difference, and one should not be the domain of the police.
Sure. But this is convoluted by the fact that the Yale police are employees of Yale, not the government. Imagine security guards, but with additional law enforcement powers. In other words, the scope of issues they would handle is actually broader than a police department's would be.

For example, many companies have their security service escort terminated employees from the premises. At some universities, this would be handled by campus police if deemed necessary.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:36 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Sure. But this is convoluted by the fact that the Yale police are employees of Yale, not the government. Imagine security guards, but with additional law enforcement powers. In other words, the scope of issues they would handle is actually broader than a police department's would be.

For example, many companies have their security service escort terminated employees from the premises. At some universities, this would be handled by campus police if deemed necessary.
Exactly, and I think that is a conflict of interest.

The US has far too many small police forces (about half the 12,000 in 2013 had fewer than ten officers). Such police forces can't provide the support in ongoing training and admin, or oversight needed to ensure an adequate and equitable service to the citizenry. More than 5000 had 1-4 officers (Table 2 of this PDF)
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:37 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And determining whether the person is trespassing should not be down to university regulations.




Nope. I see no reason why breaking university rules should not be dealt with by university punishments. Trespass is a different matter (however in England, even Trespass is a civil matter unless it's aggravated trespass, which is criminal).

My point was that the police were following university rules rather than enforcing laws. There is a difference, and one should not be the domain of the police.
Police ask for I'd as a matter of course, and the person was thought to be trespassing. I do not see how they are doing anything they would not do in a normal trespass case.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:50 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Police ask for I'd as a matter of course, and the person was thought to be trespassing. I do not see how they are doing anything they would not do in a normal trespass case.
Arguably, it would have been more appropriate to call security than the police. (Yale has both.)

But I think Yale security would have handled it exactly the same as Yale police.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:54 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You can safely act uncooperatively and grand stand as long as you donít do certain things as part of that process.
Yes, and one of the things you shouldn't do is being black.

I'm being hyperbolic, but it seems true that black people seem to get shot quite a lot, even while following lawful commands.
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Old 28th May 2019, 07:41 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
By your same logic Russian Roulette is safe.

" see I played and it turned out fine. Why don't you regale me with stories of how dangerous a silly game is. ".

Another way of putting it is you are being a Monday morning quarterback. They didn't know at the time everything was just a drama bomb.
I'm sure theprestige will be along momentarily to explain to you why your analogy is totally invalid. I think you covered at least four logical fallacies in your post.

I can accept the narrative without Making **** Up. ST and TitL, through the fog of their beliefs and world-view, are.
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Old 28th May 2019, 09:26 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm sure theprestige will be along momentarily to explain to you why your analogy is totally invalid. I think you covered at least four logical fallacies in your post.

I can accept the narrative without Making **** Up. ST and TitL, through the fog of their beliefs and world-view, are.
Enh. It looks okay to me. The proposition is not that all analogies are invalid. The proposition is that arguments even from valid analogies will fail. Because even valid analogies still have to overcome the bad faith hurdle in their intended audience. As we see here. Instead of meeting sadhatter halfway and working with him in the debate, you dismiss his argument and lash out at as many other members as you can manage.

So in this case it's failure mode two or three: valid analogy, rejected in bad faith.
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Old 29th May 2019, 12:29 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Enh. It looks okay to me. The proposition is not that all analogies are invalid. The proposition is that arguments even from valid analogies will fail. Because even valid analogies still have to overcome the bad faith hurdle in their intended audience. As we see here. Instead of meeting sadhatter halfway and working with him in the debate, you dismiss his argument and lash out at as many other members as you can manage.

So in this case it's failure mode two or three: valid analogy, rejected in bad faith.
Looks like you analogy analysis is very elastic. Not unlike TBD's favorite Rule of So.

Game with 1:6 or 1:7 chances of being killed versus sleeping darkie in the common room?
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Old 29th May 2019, 01:52 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Indeed. A trivial interpersonal event like this becoming national news is a perfect encapsulation of just how deep into clown world we are now.

This should have been something Lolada was straining to even remember having happened, within 2 months of it taking place.

One of those little inconveniences or weird stories you recount a handful of times over the course of the rest of your life, at most.

And the national media playing along and helping blow this up, is the most ridiculous element of this by far. Of course, them doing so is 100% explained by her being black, but there's no actual evidence of racism at play here. And who would care if there were, btw? In a country of over 300 million and in a planet of over 7 billion, people will be crappy toward one another in various ways based on differences of all kinds that they have. So what?

This is ********, of course, but don't you ever consider what a ******* enormous mistake kidnapping all those Africans and conquering all that land with those Spanish speaking people on it was?

Your racist ancestors brought thi to you? Don't you just hate them?
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Old 15th June 2019, 09:32 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, and one of the things you shouldn't do is being black.

I'm being hyperbolic, but it seems true that black people seem to get shot quite a lot, even while following lawful commands.
White people actually have a higher risk, statistically, of being shot during interactions with police. So I don't see your point.

ETA: If you insist on a reference for that, I can find it. It's based on valid and confirmed data.

Last edited by Doghouse Reilly; 15th June 2019 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 15th June 2019, 09:51 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
White people actually have a higher risk, statistically, of being shot during interactions with police. So I don't see your point.

ETA: If you insist on a reference for that, I can find it. It's based on valid and confirmed data.
You need a citation for 2 reasons. 1) Is that per-capita? And 2) Are cops killing unarmed white people who were initially stopped for minor reasons at the same per-capita rate as black people?
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Old 16th June 2019, 06:22 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You need a citation for 2 reasons. 1) Is that per-capita? And 2) Are cops killing unarmed white people who were initially stopped for minor reasons at the same per-capita rate as black people?
I just have this hunch that trying to disabuse you of your cherished belief that US cops shoot blacks more often because of "race hatred" would be the height of futility.

Whatever, blacks commit about half of all murders and crimes of aggravated violence in the US, which in many cities can't but leave, you know, an impression among 'first-responders' (i.e. the cops), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was proved that innocent people who are black are more likely to be shot than any other other race.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:21 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I just have this hunch that trying to disabuse you of your cherished belief that US cops shoot blacks more often because of "race hatred" would be the height of futility.

Whatever, blacks commit about half of all murders and crimes of aggravated violence in the US, which in many cities can't but leave, you know, an impression among 'first-responders' (i.e. the cops), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was proved that innocent people who are black are more likely to be shot than any other other race.
So, no data that can actually be looked at?
You don't understand "per capita"?
Shooting innocent people in the back isn't broken down by race in the data?

Attempting to insult me? How is that an argument?

As for racist cops, kind of but not exactly. IMO it's more about stereotyping young black men, assuming they are armed, assuming they are going to shoot the cop for no reason, and there's the contempt of cop problem.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:23 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is ********, of course, but don't you ever consider what a ******* enormous mistake kidnapping all those Africans and conquering all that land with those Spanish speaking people on it was?

Your racist ancestors brought thi to you? Don't you just hate them?
You realize this makes you more stringent than the bible right? Even it says the sins of the fathers will only be applied to the sons for 3 generations.

Asking a person to pay the the mistakes of their ancestors is wrong.

The poster in question also is wrong, but that doesn't make your view right.
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Old 16th June 2019, 10:47 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You need a citation for 2 reasons. 1) Is that per-capita? And 2) Are cops killing unarmed white people who were initially stopped for minor reasons at the same per-capita rate as black people?
The data I saw was from the Washington Post - due to the unwillingness of US police forces to collect data on when their officers shoot people, which in itself demonstrates contempt for the principle that the processes of justice and law enforcement should be seen to be fair.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.14faf9052f3d

Quote:
Over the past year, The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.
The key isn't the shootings of armed criminals - the majority of which might be somewhat justified, it's that of the unarmed people shot, a disproportionate number (nearly seven-times as much as one might expect) are black. The police are not reluctant to shoot armed whites, but they are still more prone to shoot blacks.

I'm sure that in a lot of cases it isn't deliberate prejudice, but that's little consolation if the mere colour of someone's skin makes police feel threatened by them.

There are confounding factors that the data doesn't account for which a proper mandatory collection of data might tease out, but these statistics shift the burden of proof onto those claiming that racial prejudice isn't involved.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th June 2019, 11:45 AM   #791
IsThisTheLife
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So, no data that can actually be looked at?
You don't understand "per capita"?
Shooting innocent people in the back isn't broken down by race in the data?

Attempting to insult me? How is that an argument?

As for racist cops, kind of but not exactly. IMO it's more about stereotyping young black men, assuming they are armed, assuming they are going to shoot the cop for no reason, and there's the contempt of cop problem.
"Stereotyping"? LoL. Cops call it 'profiling'.

It certainly is a shame for ALL black Americans that the policies and legislation of the LBJ administration and its successors have inculcated such a culture of entitlement that so many of the, shall we say, 'less gifted' resort to thuggery and violence to get the things they feel they should have.
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Old 16th June 2019, 11:52 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"Stereotyping"? LoL. Cops call it 'profiling'.

It certainly is a shame for ALL black Americans that the policies and legislation of the LBJ administration and its successors have inculcated such a culture of entitlement that so many of the, shall we say, 'less gifted' resort to thuggery and violence to get the things they feel they should have.
Just to review:

Originally Posted by ITTL
Originally Posted by SG
You need a citation for 2 reasons. 1) Is that per-capita? And 2) Are cops killing unarmed white people who were initially stopped for minor reasons at the same per-capita rate as black people?
I just have this hunch that trying to disabuse you of your cherished belief that US cops shoot blacks more often because of "race hatred" would be the height of futility.

Whatever, blacks commit about half of all murders and crimes of aggravated violence in the US, which in many cities can't but leave, you know, an impression among 'first-responders' (i.e. the cops), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was proved that innocent people who are black are more likely to be shot than any other other race.
Originally Posted by WAPO-quoted from above post
Over the past year, The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.
Maybe the cops and some other people need to take a serious look at that profiling.
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Old 16th June 2019, 12:27 PM   #793
jimbob
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"Stereotyping"? LoL. Cops call it 'profiling'.

It certainly is a shame for ALL black Americans that the policies and legislation of the LBJ administration and its successors have inculcated such a culture of entitlement that so many of the, shall we say, 'less gifted' resort to thuggery and violence to get the things they feel they should have.

That last paragraph is special. Making segregation illegal was stopping the culture of entitlement of the racist whites.

Also there will be some people still working who were brought up during segregation, maybe even started their jobs under segregation. They had a massive, unfair legal stacking of the decks against them in terms of education and career prospects as well as racists aiming to keep them poor. It's hardly as if it's ancient history.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"Stereotyping"? LoL. Cops call it 'profiling'.

It certainly is a shame for ALL black Americans that the policies and legislation of the LBJ administration and its successors have inculcated such a culture of entitlement that so many of the, shall we say, 'less gifted' resort to thuggery and violence to get the things they feel they should have.
Just to review:

Originally Posted by ITTL
Originally Posted by SG
You need a citation for 2 reasons. 1) Is that per-capita? And 2) Are cops killing unarmed white people who were initially stopped for minor reasons at the same per-capita rate as black people?
I just have this hunch that trying to disabuse you of your cherished belief that US cops shoot blacks more often because of "race hatred" would be the height of futility.

Whatever, blacks commit about half of all murders and crimes of aggravated violence in the US, which in many cities can't but leave, you know, an impression among 'first-responders' (i.e. the cops), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was proved that innocent people who are black are more likely to be shot than any other other race.
Originally Posted by WAPO-quoted from above post
Over the past year, The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.
Maybe the cops and some other people need to take a serious look at that profiling.

In addition, such profiling also falls into the trap that even if the majority of arrested* criminals come from one demographic, it doesn't mean that the majority of that demographic are criminals.

*Of course, if you tend to arrest one demographic disproportionately, they would make up the majority of arrested criminals, even if they were no more criminal than any other demographic.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #794
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"Stereotyping"? LoL. Cops call it 'profiling'.

It certainly is a shame for ALL black Americans that the policies and legislation of the LBJ administration and its successors have inculcated such a culture of entitlement that so many of the, shall we say, 'less gifted' resort to thuggery and violence to get the things they feel they should have.
Back in the real world police violence shows no correlation to community violence - and it never has, at any point in US history. The factors appear to be police training and culture - suprise, the more racism, the more violence. This is why Ferguson's PD called out military equipment while the neighborhood was simply mourning, as one example.

I won't bother posting a single link for that white supremacist crap about how LBJ gave black people, of all groups in the US, have a "culture of entitlement. This is the same foolishness that caused Antonin Scalia to say that black people having their voting rights protected by federal law was a "racial entitlement" - when of course wealthy white men like him had *never* had their voting rights questioned.
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Old 16th June 2019, 06:08 PM   #795
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You realize this makes you more stringent than the bible right? Even it says the sins of the fathers will only be applied to the sons for 3 generations.

Asking a person to pay the the mistakes of their ancestors is wrong.

The poster in question also is wrong, but that doesn't make your view right.
How does that leave him in relation to other works of fiction, e.g. the Twilight Saga or Dune?
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