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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:31 AM   #201
dann
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What would you say is the appropriate response to his opinion piece in WSJ?

(Assuming that simply refuting it in print isn't enough.)

It isn't enough, obviously. Why do you think Baylor keeps repeating the lie? Why do think nobody in this thread is concerned about Ngo's lies, only about his freedom to lie?

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At the height of the 2016 election, researchers at the RAND Corporation released a report documenting an unusual propaganda model dubbed the “firehose of falsehood.” The report described a strategy where a propagandist could overwhelm the public by producing a never-ending stream of misinformation and falsehoods.
The report found that these lies didn’t have to be believable — even clear falsehoods, repeated widely and frequently enough, could be effective in warping public opinion in the propagandist’s favor.
Why obvious lies make great propaganda (Vox, April 31, 2018)

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I'm under the impression that a few people in my feeds would argue that maybe a punch in the head is really the way to go here, but I wouldn't impute that view to anyone in this forum, because that would be insulting.

If anybody deserves a punch in the head ...
So let's hear, 'what would you say is the appropriate response to Ngo's opinion piece in WSJ?'
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:37 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Given the putative nature of the protest (to protect a statue of a Confederate general) why would you prefer neo-con to mean neo-conservative rather than neo-confederate? Whilst I often disagree with you theprestige I think you are usually honest, and honesty in this case surely falls on the side of the neo-confederate definition.
He snipped my statement short for a specific reason, because the rest of the people I labeled gave my statement context.

I will work to be more clear in the future.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:40 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. He's a guy with a blog. That's not the same as being a journalist. He also happens to join up with the Proud Boys whenever they come to Portland to fight.
No. The whole point of freedom of the press is that everyone is a journalist. Reporters aren't an elite caste. You don't get to decide who is exempt from political violence because of their press credentials. Antifa doesn't get to decide that. Everybody has those credentials.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:41 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Given the putative nature of the protest (to protect a statue of a Confederate general) why would you prefer neo-con to mean neo-conservative rather than neo-confederate? Whilst I often disagree with you theprestige I think you are usually honest, and honesty in this case surely falls on the side of the neo-confederate definition.
I don't prefer one over the other, except in the sense that I think the connotations and context make one interpretation of "neo-con" more likely than the other.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:45 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What would you say is the appropriate response to his opinion piece in WSJ?

(Assuming that simply refuting it in print isn't enough.)
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It isn't enough, obviously.
So what would you say is the appropriate response to Ngo’s opinion piece in WSJ?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
If anybody deserves a punch in the head...
How would you finish that sentence, dann?

Originally Posted by dann View Post

So let's hear, 'what would you say is the appropriate response to Ngo's opinion piece in WSJ?'
Refuting it in print, obviously.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:09 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It isn't enough, obviously. Why do you think Baylor keeps repeating the lie? Why do think nobody in this thread is concerned about Ngo's lies, only about his freedom to lie?




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If anybody deserves a punch in the head ...
So let's hear, 'what would you say is the appropriate response to Ngo's opinion piece in WSJ?'
We are not hearing about his lies because he was doing nothing illegal and was assaulted. If you wanted to start a thread about the guy in CT go nuts, you will likely have almost complete agreement he is an idiot and a liar.

Just like how in a rape case it is in bad taste to say " but she was a slut" here is the same. He was a victim, a minority victim at that, and for the purposes of this thread that is what matters.

If words are such an effective weapon, why we're they not used instead? If you are saying words are so dangerous he should be assaulted why not then use that weapon you are so afraid of?

The answer is simple, you are not afraid of them. You want him to shut the **** up, and a punch in his face is the quickest way to do that to your logic.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:22 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why do think nobody in this thread is concerned about Ngo's lies, only about his freedom to lie?

Because until this thread, I had never heard of Ngo and I really don't care who he is of what he has done. On the other hand, I do know what freedom is, and I think it is important to protect everyone's freedom.

So, if he uses that freedom to lie, that's really unfortunate for him, but I will still support his freedom to do so.*


(*Some exceptions apply, but "It really makes me mad" is not one of them. Nor is, "If people believe his lies, bad things might happen someday.")
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:47 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Because until this thread, I had never heard of Ngo and I really don't care who he is of what he has done. On the other hand, I do know what freedom is, and I think it is important to protect everyone's freedom.

So, if he uses that freedom to lie, that's really unfortunate for him, but I will still support his freedom to do so.*


(*Some exceptions apply, but "It really makes me mad" is not one of them. Nor is, "If people believe his lies, bad things might happen someday.")
I find the same for most of these super influential menaces.

The only people that know who they are are their extreme minority of fans and people who sniff around for offense like a dog looking for floor snacks.

To paraphrase a line from James Rolfe " its like if someone took a ****, buried it, then you come along dig up and complain they are gross." . This guy and others like him will never have mass appeal. Out of the tiny percentage of people who listen to him likely 1/3 are doing it for a laugh, 1/3 are saying they do to rile people up, and the last fraction of a tiny percent of humanity are his actual fans.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:53 AM   #209
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I'm resisting the urge to go through Ngo's claims one-by-one until we've established that punching people in the head isn't the way to deal with errant journalists and/or editorialists. I would hate to think that by critiquing his claims of fact or value I would be indirectly inciting violence.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 10:57 AM   #210
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I just can't understand the strategy of this at all. Ngo is a propagandist for sure. His writing is red meat for the extreme right wing. I have no problem agreeing that he is a vile person. Antifa practically put up a "wanted" poster for him before the rally and beat him on sight without provocation. This is pure vigilantism.

Antifa is so ready to declare a state of lawlessness. Either we are a nation of laws, or we are a failed state in armed struggle. The two cannot co-exist. Meanwhile, antifa beats up right wing nobodies and the real seat of power hardly notices.

What exactly is antifa accomplishing here? Ngo will be back. Patriot Prayer will be back. The trading of blows will continue while ordinary people look on with increasing dread. The local authorities will only look the other way so long as the violence remains at a low enough level to ignore. Should it escalate, right wing and left wing brawlers will share the same cells and morgues when the police sweep up the street rabble. What is the end game here? What is actually being accomplished here?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 10:59 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No. The whole point of freedom of the press is that everyone is a journalist. Reporters aren't an elite caste. You don't get to decide who is exempt from political violence because of their press credentials. Antifa doesn't get to decide that. Everybody has those credentials.

Er, no. If everyone is a "journalist", then no one is, because the category at that point the term becomes effectively meaningless. A set that contains literally everything is not a useful set.

The whole point of freedom of the press is that the government cannot censor journalists or journalistic organizations simply because the press is critical of the government, or the government does not like what is being said, unless there is a compelling reason to do so that does not unduly infringe on the right to a free press -- eg. incitement to commit a crime, incitement to violent overthrow of the government, libel or slander, etc.

Demonstrable falsehoods are something of a gray area, and have traditionally been considered safe from government censorship except when they form actionable libel or slander against an individual or organization. Oddly, that exclusion does not seem to apply to classes of people, only individuals and incorporated entities. A definitely loophole in the law that should be considered for redress.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:03 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Impression from the pictures and updates from people on the ground pretty much match my initial view. As much as a few posters here seem to position 'antifa' as protectors, definitely seem to be antagonizers in general looking for a fight.

No one has said that there aren't any antifa individuals or groups who aren't just there looking for a fight, obviously there are but they're a very small minority, and not representative of the far larger antifa tent. And there are nowhere near as many of them as there are of fascists/white supremacists who who are just out looking for a fight (prefering one heavily weighted in their favour, with unarmed opponents who can't fight back effectively, like they targeted at Charlottsville).

Quote:
Another reason the whole "they are egging/milkshaking to humiliate" schtick doesn't sit well with me. It's a means to entice a fight, not a deterrent to violence.

No one is claiming that egging/milkshaking is going to deter immediate violence; but there's an entirely separate thread on that subject, and discussion is best left there.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:03 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. He's a guy with a blog. That's not the same as being a journalist. He also happens to join up with the Proud Boys whenever they come to Portland to fight.
good grief what is wrong with you? you are like Donald Trump declaring "Fake News!" to anything you don't like.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/antifa-...st-11562021361
Headline:
Antifa Attacks a Journalist
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:06 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(*Some exceptions apply, but "It really makes me mad" is not one of them. Nor is, "If people believe his lies, bad things might happen someday.")

Exactly. Conspiracy-theory-driven mass murder is just the price we pay for free speech. Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:09 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why do think nobody in this thread is concerned about Ngo's lies, only about his freedom to lie?
Because his freedom to lie is far more important to us and concerning than the fact that he lied.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:11 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Antifa is so ready to declare a state of lawlessness.

Nope. Antifa's view is that we already live in a state of lawlessness, when those who enforce the laws do so selectively, turning a blind eye toward lawlessness from their favoured groups committed against "undesirables"; and they are simply acting in the way the authorities should be, when the authorities have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so.

Whether that is true in all cases is certainly arguable, and I'd definitely say that there are instances where the response has been disproportionate; but for the most part it's a fairly accurate view of the world as it is. Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of antifa individuals are those who are themselves direct targets of fascist and white nationalist violence -- ethnic minorities, women, LGTBQs, and so on.

Quote:
What is the end game here? What is actually being accomplished here?

What is being accomplished is that the fascists are not being allowed free reign to control the streets and openly intimidate and assault minorities and other "undesirables"; like the Brown Shirts did in Nazi Germany. The end game is to have the relevant authorities actually step in and rein in the fascists and their inciters, so that direct action is no longer necessary. I'm surprised that this still needs to be spelled out for some people.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:18 AM   #217
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Journalist attacked by violent mob

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
There ya go. So you want to get together with the OP and help him draft the "Let's Declare Rose City Antifa a Terrorist Organization". Get that over to the UN and the DoJ and everyone will feel better. All you then have to show is where their mission statement or material says they're for terrorism.



Of course, you'll have to first get past the language police. You know, the right wing apologists who insist that you actually show where they say that they are for Terrorism. Terrorism, you know... like TERRORIZING civilian populations. Seems to me like they're terrorizing Patriot Prayer, the Proud Boys and countless alt-right armchair quarterbacks.



And then you have to subpoena their membership lists and show that the perps on Saturday were RCA members and not "Hooligans For Bernie", "Red Spring", "Gamers For Fair Play" or any other such organization.



The OP wasn't suggesting that this particular antifa group be outlawed, but that it's time to declare Antifa as terrorists.



But at least you gave it a try.


Your post above is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The ***** who attacked him should be arrested and prosecuted.


One of the attackers at the Rose City Antifa event was doing the attacking while wearing a Rose City Antifa T-shirt. But hey maybe he’s just a fan like a sports fan wearing a jersey.

I actually have specific interest in the Portland Antifa guys; they have caused me to reconsider Antifa in general after listening to them. I obviously don’t want them banned as a terrorist organization.

As we speak, there are some antifa type folks doing a little activism in my neighborhood. Apparently Richard Spencer lives here now and they are outing him. I’m becoming more sympathetic to them as I think more about it.

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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:22 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Nope. Antifa's view is that we already live in a state of lawlessness, when those who enforce the laws do so selectively, turning a blind eye toward lawlessness from their favoured groups committed against "undesirables"; and they are simply acting in the way the authorities should be, when the authorities have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so.

Whether that is true in all cases is certainly arguable, and I'd definitely say that there are instances where the response has been disproportionate; but for the most part it's a fairly accurate view of the world as it is.
Having grievances with the government isn't the same as a state of lawlessness. The entire point of our laws is that grievances, sufficiently felt by enough citizens, can be addressed through pre-defined processes.

Antifa is a repudiation of that. To support armed struggle is to pre-suppose that grievances cannot be addressed in a lawful, peaceful way.

This is all besides the point.

Antifa isn't political in any meaningful sense. They, and patriot prayer and the others, are political LARPers. They don't challenge real power in any meaningful sense. The small groups of thugs meet on the street and beat the snot out of each other. Portland PD lets them fight. In the rare instances one of these thugs forgets their place and attacks a cop, they get a hard lesson in what real power is.

Antifa will never effect a meaningful change in the way political power is wielded in this country. But they will be used as poster children for authoritarians looking for reasons to crack down on civil engagement.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:28 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
As we speak, there are some antifa type folks doing a little activism in my neighborhood. Apparently Richard Spencer lives here now and they are outing him. I’m becoming more sympathetic to them as I think more about it.
They're posting the home address of these people, and you're becoming more sympathetic to Antifa?

What exactly do you think the purpose of posting their home address is? What do you want to happen to them? Should they be assaulted? Should they be SWATed? Should they be killed? Because that's where this is quite predictably heading.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:29 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Er, no. If everyone is a "journalist", then no one is, because the category at that point the term becomes effectively meaningless. A set that contains literally everything is not a useful set.
The right of human beings to observe and report on the world around them is indeed universal. It is not restricted to employees of media corporations. It is not granted by the receipt of a White House Press Pass.

Andy Ngo is every bit as entitled to exercise the right to free press, by publishing his thoughts and opinions, as any New York Times reporter or AP stringer. The only accreditation he needs, to practice acts of journalism whenever and however he chooses, is the fact that he is a human being with human rights.

Certainly antifa is not entitled to grant journalistic exceptions from their political violence, to people who work for media corporations.

Journalists are not an elite caste. The press is not actually an estate of the government, with barriers to entry that citizens must cross to enjoy its protections.

Quote:
The whole point of freedom of the press is that the government cannot censor journalists or journalistic organizations simply because the press is critical of the government, or the government does not like what is being said, unless there is a compelling reason to do so that does not unduly infringe on the right to a free press -- eg. incitement to commit a crime, incitement to violent overthrow of the government, libel or slander, etc.
The whole point of freedom of the press is that the government cannot censor anyone, whether they are employed by someone as a "journalist" or not.

Journalists are not an elite caste. Journalism is not a privileged role granted only to employees of media corporations. Anyone, at any time, can speak up and say, "this is what I saw, this is what I think" without fear of retaliation. That's the freedom of the press.

The idea that Andy Ngo is somehow not entitled to safety from antifa's violence because he is not formally accredited by some media corporation is perverse and obscene. As is the idea that he is not entitled to the human right to publish.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:33 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Nope. Antifa's view is that we already live in a state of lawlessness, when those who enforce the laws do so selectively, turning a blind eye toward lawlessness from their favoured groups committed against "undesirables"; and they are simply acting in the way the authorities should be, when the authorities have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so.
Does Antifa think that the authorities should have assaulted Andy Ngo?

Quote:
Whether that is true in all cases is certainly arguable, and I'd definitely say that there are instances where the response has been disproportionate; but for the most part it's a fairly accurate view of the world as it is. Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of antifa individuals are those who are themselves direct targets of fascist and white nationalist violence -- ethnic minorities, women, LGTBQs, and so on.
Andy Ngo is an ethnic minority, and antifa (especially in Portland) is overwhelmingly white.

Quote:
What is being accomplished is that the fascists are not being allowed free reign to control the streets and openly intimidate and assault minorities and other "undesirables"
Andy Ngo hasn't assaulted anyone. He was the one who was openly intimidated and assaulted.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:36 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Er, no. If everyone is a "journalist", then no one is, because the category at that point the term becomes effectively meaningless. A set that contains literally everything is not a useful set.
Yes, as a matter of fact, "journalist" is meaningless when it comes to rights.

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The whole point of freedom of the press is that the government cannot censor journalists or journalistic organizations
No. This is a profound misunderstanding you have. The government cannot generally censor anyone. In regards to the 1st amendment, the "press" is an activity, NOT a category of person. Journalists are not an entitled class with rights that the rest of us don't have. Your belief to the contrary is deeply, deeply undemocratic and anti-constitutional.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:38 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Er, no. If everyone is a "journalist", then no one is, because the category at that point the term becomes effectively meaningless. A set that contains literally everything is not a useful set.
Just out of curiosity, does this argument work well for you in other contexts?

If everyone is human, no one is human?

If everyone has the right to free speech, no one has the right to free speech?

The right of free press is the right of anyone to publish, just like the right of free assembly is the right of anyone to assemble.

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It's a mistake to conflate this idea of publication as a basic human right, with the institutionalized practice of publication by organized groups of people.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:39 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They're posting the home address of these people, and you're becoming more sympathetic to Antifa?



What exactly do you think the purpose of posting their home address is? What do you want to happen to them? Should they be assaulted? Should they be SWATed? Should they be killed? Because that's where this is quite predictably heading.


Well I was more thinking of shaming or shunning them or maybe a dirty look at a coffee shop, but you go on with your slippery slope to murder.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:45 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Well I was more thinking of shaming or shunning them or maybe a dirty look at a coffee shop
And why is their home address necessary in order to do that? It isn't. It serves no purpose whatsoever for your stated goal.

Quote:
but you go on with your slippery slope to murder.
What, you think nobody would be willing to SWAT them? You think nobody could get killed by being SWATed?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:47 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Well I was more thinking of shaming or shunning them or maybe a dirty look at a coffee shop, but you go on with your slippery slope to murder.
I have mixed feelings about the doxxing.

Personally, I would love to know if Spencer moved into my neighborhood. While I am wholly opposed to Antifa's extrajudicial violence, their tactics of naming and shaming overt and closet racists and neo-nazis is one I support 100%. People like Spencer should never be allowed to escape the stigma of their failed ideologies, nor be afforded the benefits of polite society. I would love to have the opportunity to daily remind such a person how contemptible they are and would take joy in their inability to participate in the broader community as a respectable person.

That said, given the trends of political "discourse" these days, posting his address is likely to endanger his life. While I would not engage in political violence, one has to be willfully naive to believe that posting his address would not vastly increase his risk of being harmed by someone. Posting the address, knowing that such bad actors are around, seems like an implicit approval of such violence.

I find it a bit of moral quandary.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:53 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
What is being accomplished is that the fascists are not being allowed free reign to control the streets and openly intimidate and assault minorities and other "undesirables"; like the Brown Shirts did in Nazi Germany. The end game is to have the relevant authorities actually step in and rein in the fascists and their inciters, so that direct action is no longer necessary. I'm surprised that this still needs to be spelled out for some people.
The end game is to have the relevant authorities step in and rein in the fascists and their inciters how exactly? By eroding personal freedoms? How does vigilante violence by groups like Antifa help those relevant authorities reach that end game without turning their focus towards those violent vigilantes? Wouldn't peaceful protest and lobbying to authorities be more effective in getting what you want?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 11:57 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm kinda wondering if Antifa shouldn't be treated as a terrorist organization?
Terrorist seems strong. Maybe street thugs?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:10 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And why is their home address necessary in order to do that? It isn't. It serves no purpose whatsoever for your stated goal.
How about the poster saying near here, or "around the corner," or "in this neighborhood?" How about "on this block?"

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What, you think nobody would be willing to SWAT them? You think nobody could get killed by being SWATed?
I think that people who are willing to commit a felony possibly resulting in death of another person are resourceful enough to find their address if needed. I doubt that they need a nudge from a street poster. And obviously, I don't believe your last sentence, so kindly cut it out.

If he finds himself subscribed to a bunch of liberal mailing lists and gay hamster porn magazines, however, that would be kind of awesome.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey
I find it a bit of moral quandary.
Yeah, me too. I'm connecting the dots and realizing that there were some radical types outside his place a while ago. At first I figured that it was a line for one of those pop-up stores, but now that I think about it they were probably doing a street action.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:15 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Er, no. If everyone is a "journalist", then no one is, because the category at that point the term becomes effectively meaningless. A set that contains literally everything is not a useful set.

The whole point of freedom of the press is that the government cannot censor journalists or journalistic organizations simply because the press is critical of the government, or the government does not like what is being said, unless there is a compelling reason to do so that does not unduly infringe on the right to a free press -- eg. incitement to commit a crime, incitement to violent overthrow of the government, libel or slander, etc.

Demonstrable falsehoods are something of a gray area, and have traditionally been considered safe from government censorship except when they form actionable libel or slander against an individual or organization. Oddly, that exclusion does not seem to apply to classes of people, only individuals and incorporated entities. A definitely loophole in the law that should be considered for redress.
We are not talking about government censorship we are talking about a knob being assaulted for no reason other than being a knob.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:18 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Exactly. Conspiracy-theory-driven mass murder is just the price we pay for free speech. Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!
When that actually happens, when there is another Hitler, then we get to use violence. We don't get to point at folks we don't like scream " they are genociding right for us" and start attacking.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:25 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
How about the poster saying near here, or "around the corner," or "in this neighborhood?" How about "on this block?"
How about them? They weren't what was actually posted.

Quote:
I think that people who are willing to commit a felony possibly resulting in death of another person are resourceful enough to find their address if needed.
The thing about having the address easily available is that it lowers the bar, making it more likely that someone might do something on impulse. Even if they could do the same thing with effort, requiring that effort still provides some measure of protection against crazies. Posting that address has the effect of lowering that protection.

And you yourself should have blurred that address in the picture before you posted it.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:28 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Well I was more thinking of shaming or shunning them or maybe a dirty look at a coffee shop, but you go on with your slippery slope to murder.
Then the home address would come into play where? If you see him. .. shame him, whatever that means.

And Hey if you are cool with people coming over to someones place to "shame" them for political views post your address and picture. I'm sure I could come up with some online activity that would get you "shamed" and shunned if it was on a poster.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:32 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have mixed feelings about the doxxing.

Personally, I would love to know if Spencer moved into my neighborhood. While I am wholly opposed to Antifa's extrajudicial violence, their tactics of naming and shaming overt and closet racists and neo-nazis is one I support 100%. People like Spencer should never be allowed to escape the stigma of their failed ideologies, nor be afforded the benefits of polite society. I would love to have the opportunity to daily remind such a person how contemptible they are and would take joy in their inability to participate in the broader community as a respectable person.

That said, given the trends of political "discourse" these days, posting his address is likely to endanger his life. While I would not engage in political violence, one has to be willfully naive to believe that posting his address would not vastly increase his risk of being harmed by someone. Posting the address, knowing that such bad actors are around, seems like an implicit approval of such violence.

I find it a bit of moral quandary.
Wow that is some toxic ****.

Your point of view would lead to zero incentive for anyone who got caught up in any hate group or gang to ever leave. Way to make lifelong dedication to this **** a more appealing option.

Think then form a philosophy not the other way around.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:36 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Terrorist seems strong. Maybe street thugs?
I'd be okay with the general gang definition. As this is typically how gangs start. Political motivation groups people, but soon enough I see this going the way of any gang that starts to "protect " people.

They will turn to profitable illegal acts to fund their goal, then more and more focus on said acts till the goal is just branding for the criminal acts making money.

Very ironically what happened to legit white power organized crime.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:41 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How about them? They weren't what was actually posted.



The thing about having the address easily available is that it lowers the bar, making it more likely that someone might do something on impulse. Even if they could do the same thing with effort, requiring that effort still provides some measure of protection against crazies. Posting that address has the effect of lowering that protection.

And you yourself should have blurred that address in the picture before you posted it.
100% right.

I'm my 20s after a night at the bar, if I came across a legit sign with that prick's address, I'd for sure go cause some kind of ruckus. And i was the last crazy of my friends.

Would I have stalked him every day to find out if he happened to move to my city? Not at all.

And as much as I'm older and wiser I'm sure there are plenty of drunk 20 somethings willing to pick up the slack.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:50 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Wow that is some toxic ****.

Your point of view would lead to zero incentive for anyone who got caught up in any hate group or gang to ever leave. Way to make lifelong dedication to this **** a more appealing option.

Think then form a philosophy not the other way around.
Spencer has not repudiated his ideology. His star may have waned, but there is no reason for anyone to assume he thinks any differently than he did before.

My post should not be construed to mean that redemption is impossible. Spencer is not seeking redemption.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:03 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Spencer has not repudiated his ideology. His star may have waned, but there is no reason for anyone to assume he thinks any differently than he did before.

My post should not be construed to mean that redemption is impossible. Spencer is not seeking redemption.
But you said you want it to follow them, to harass them, to make polite company impossible. Now suddenly you have limits? Things like this don't die,and if he recanted today these same people who think like you do would be putting up these signs till the day he dies.

I don't think you believe redemption is impossible which makes your view all the more toxic and sick. You believe it is possible but hold a philosophy in which you make it impossible via doing everything possible to exclude this person from any company other than that of his own kind.

If this guy wanted to broaden his horizons by meeting different people, you would have that be impossible. If he wanted to fold up shop because he hates what he has done you would have that be impossible. If he wanted to volunteer under a pseudonym to atone, you would make that impossible. I could keep going but the point is obvious.

And this doesn't even touch on the bulk of the everyday idiots that get wrapped up in this crap for a year or two and come to their senses. Not in your world, post their info and make sure that they can't even leave the state without this **** following them.

If I thought you believed redemption was impossible I'd find your philosophy merely silly. As it is I find it as morally reprehensible as I can find a philosophy that is not genocide based.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:05 PM   #239
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Richard Spencer's ideology is actually genocide-based, so there's that.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:12 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
But you said you want it to follow them, to harass them, to make polite company impossible. Now suddenly you have limits? Things like this don't die,and if he recanted today these same people who think like you do would be putting up these signs till the day he dies.

I don't think you believe redemption is impossible which makes your view all the more toxic and sick. You believe it is possible but hold a philosophy in which you make it impossible via doing everything possible to exclude this person from any company other than that of his own kind.

If this guy wanted to broaden his horizons by meeting different people, you would have that be impossible. If he wanted to fold up shop because he hates what he has done you would have that be impossible. If he wanted to volunteer under a pseudonym to atone, you would make that impossible. I could keep going but the point is obvious.

And this doesn't even touch on the bulk of the everyday idiots that get wrapped up in this crap for a year or two and come to their senses. Not in your world, post their info and make sure that they can't even leave the state without this **** following them.

If I thought you believed redemption was impossible I'd find your philosophy merely silly. As it is I find it as morally reprehensible as I can find a philosophy that is not genocide based.
Richard Spencer is not some ignorant racist that got caught up in a movement. Richard Spencer is the intellectual elite of the white nationalist movement. He's the president of a white nationalist think tank and responsible for organizing and directing alt-right extremist groups. he is literally a man that organizes torch-lit parades of chanting neo-nazis. I feel perfectly comfortable holding him in extreme disregard. He's the second coming of Goebbels, and that's not hyperbole.

I reject the idea that we have to be nice to the racists so they can learn, gently and at their own pace, that being a racist is bad. These people are adults and fully developed sense of morality. They can own the consequences of their bigotry. It is not unreasonable to say "this guy is a neo-nazi that yearns for an ethnically cleansed America" when it is literally true. Should that make him not welcome at his local whole foods, so be it.
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