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Old 25th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #161
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What in the blue **** does this have to do with whether objective evidence is required to demonstrate one's claims? And why would I want to read communist propaganda in relation to our discussion?
You claimed that it would be irrational for me to hold something to be true without evidence, your were informed of where the evidence could be found. It's not my problem that you're unwilling to put in the required work.

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What are you talking about?
Selling tickets to pedophiles to watch the children's group showers, under supervision so there is no danger to the children.

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[citation needed]
For saying that the comparison should be to Marxists rather than conservatives? I don't think so.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:29 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You claimed that it would be irrational for me to hold something to be true without evidence, your were informed of where the evidence could be found.
Are you claiming that Marx and Engels have demonstrated your claim in their books? Cite, please. Page number and full cite.

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It's not my problem that you're unwilling to put in the required work.
I'm generally unwilling to demonstrate other people's claims. Especially when they're nonsense.

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Selling tickets to pedophiles to watch the children's group showers, under supervision so there is no danger to the children.
You're the one claiming there's no danger, remember? You can't demand that I explain why reality isn't the way you've imagined.

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For saying that the comparison should be to Marxists rather than conservatives? I don't think so.
Of course not. You're not actually interested in "direct, accurate" statements. You want to be able to make claims without being challenged on them. I assure you, that's not going to be your experience with me.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:43 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why is the only acceptable solution to allow these transgendered people (male boys in this case) to use the girls' facilities?
An equally valid question is why is the only acceptable solution to the possibility that some transgender people are only claiming to be transgender but are secretly pervs is to disallow all transgender people to use the bathroom of their choice?

I think if you know of a solution that respects the needs of all peoples involved that you should tell us what it is.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In the case under discussion, schoolchildren, it is the boy using the girls' bathroom that is drawing attention to him and yes, probably causing him shame. And in what way would he be endangered by carrying right on using the boys' bathroom he had been using all his life up till now?
First, he doesn’t identify as a boy. You are mis-gendering him.

Sometimes trans-people face extreme hostility for being trans and run the risk of being beat up or even killed if they draw attention to themselves. While using the restroom of the gender they most easily blend in with doesn’t solve this problem completely, it does mitigate it.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What about the shame experienced by the girls being forced to undress or attend to intimate hygiene issues in front of a boy? Why is it always the uncomfortable boy whose feelings are prioritised, while the uncomfortable girls are called bigots and told they have no right to their boundaries?
Is it? I thought your rules would apply equally to trans-men as it would to trans-women?

Also, wouldn’t your hypothetical girl also feel uncomfortable by a bearded masculine trans-man who was forced to use the woman’s bathroom/locker room because he still had a vagina?

Last edited by Mycroft; 25th July 2019 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:45 AM   #164
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you claiming that Marx and Engels have demonstrated your claim in their books? Cite, please. Page number and full cite.
The various claims demonstrated by Marx and Engels, taken together, imply that liberal progressives will be prone to moralizing over factual analysis, in particular because of their ideological basis in the petit-bourgeoisie. As for cites, start with all volumes of Das Kapital, then The German Ideology, and then continue with the Prison Notebooks by Gramsci.

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I'm generally unwilling to demonstrate other people's claims. Especially when they're nonsense.
I never asked you to demonstrate that claim.

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You're the one claiming there's no danger, remember? You can't demand that I explain why reality isn't the way you've imagined.
You're the one asserting that there is necessarily a danger, it's up to you to demonstrate it, since it is obvious to anyone else that it's perfectly possible to organize this without there being any danger to the children involved.

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Of course not. You're not actually interested in "direct, accurate" statements. You want to be able to make claims without being challenged on them. I assure you, that's not going to be your experience with me.
The reality is that you're too lazy to do the required work to educate yourself on the subject, then pretend that your willful ignorance is somehow a sign of skepticism on your part. You're the equivalent of someone who denies that a certain theorem in physics follows because you don't want to do all the required prerequisite work, including full educations in physics and the relevant math.

If you're so sure of yourself, why not take the bet I offered? For all we know someone might actually do a specific study on this at some point.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:47 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was responding to a strawman. The strawman where someone invoked imagined bad behaviour of some girls as a reason to deny the comfort and modesty of all girls.
Wow, the irony.

You're suggesting that the bad behavior of some trans-people, the ones who are secretly pervs and only pretending to be trans, is a reason to deny the comfort and modesty of all trans-people.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:50 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I believe the argument is: Because we wouldn't exclude fat girls merely because the other girls don't want her in the shower with them, therefor we should not exclude anyone merely because the girls don't want said person in the shower with them. The silliness of the argument can easily be seen by applying it to pedophiles: "Well we're not going to exclude fat girls from showering with you so we're also not going to exclude pedophiles from being there!"
So many arguments depending on equating trans-people with sexual predators.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:54 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
So many arguments depending on equating trans-people with sexual predators.
Nobody "equated trans-people with sexual predators" - but I won't hold your claim against you,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 26th July 2019 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:54 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The various claims demonstrated by Marx and Engels, taken together, imply that liberal progressives will be prone to moralizing over factual analysis, in particular because of their ideological basis in the petit-bourgeoisie. As for cites, start with all volumes of Das Kapital, then The German Ideology, and then continue with the Prison Notebooks by Gramsci.
No, no. Your claim, your proof. Quote the relevant parts. Your claim has already been rejected; only you can rehabilitate it.

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You're the one asserting that there is necessarily a danger
I have never said this. You should pay closer attention to what I write.

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The reality is that you're too lazy to do the required work to educate yourself on the subject
Do you seriously expect me to do the legwork of every prick who comes in here with a claim about science, politics or magic? Get out of here.

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If you're so sure of yourself, why not take the bet I offered?
I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking you to demonstrate your claim.

But where are you going with this? Liberals and conservatives are biased towards their ideologies but marxists aren't as much? You'll have a hard time finding a study that shows this. Good luck.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:56 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What danger? One can assume that they're not going to assault any of the girls, just taking a nice look while they're in the shower. And I'm not interested in the technical distinction between pedophilia and hebephilia, it's clear what I meant.
Clearly we should ban lesbians from the women's shower too.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.
Again, your argument depends on misgendering. That "boy" identifies as a girl.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:02 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But the facts of the claims are verified by the local Iowa TV station. They had the same information that the OP link had, complete with a taped interview where you can see the exact words from the OP link. So, those facts are independently verified from a credible source. And yet, somehow, the source that one particular individual used when reporting those facts is deemed significant. It isn't.
We're allowed to pay attention to the biases of kooky sources. It's up to the one who presents the source to choose the non-kooky source over the kooky one. The OP made the mistake, not the people pointing out how biased his source is.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:07 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Again, your argument depends on misgendering. That "boy" identifies as a girl.
This is at least honest, and it is exactly what the arguments are really all about. Strip away the falsehoods, the straw men, the misrepresentations.


Are transgirls really girls?

If your answer is yes, then obviously it follows that the young male person ought to use the girls' room, whether bathroom, locker room, changing room, or bed room. If they are really girls, they belong with the girls.

To my way of thinking, one girl can't make another girl pregnant.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, no. Your claim, your proof. Quote the relevant parts. Your claim has already been rejected; only you can rehabilitate it.
What you mean is: it's been rejected by you, but I don't see why I should care much about that.

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I have never said this. You should pay closer attention to what I write.
Well then, having established that it's possible to organize this without involving danger to the children, then why aren't schools doing this?

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Do you seriously expect me to do the legwork of every prick who comes in here with a claim about science, politics or magic? Get out of here.
Not at all, you are more than free to reject my claim. Just as I am more than free not to care about your rejection of it.

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But where are you going with this? Liberals and conservatives are biased towards their ideologies but marxists aren't as much? You'll have a hard time finding a study that shows this. Good luck.
No, liberals - and to a slightly lesser extent conservatives - are more prone to approach a subject from a perspective of moral virtuousness rather than a perspective of factual analysis, as they are looking to pass moral judgement rather than analysis. Specifically, they are more prone to reject a claim based on the moral standing of the person making it rather than its actual factual (in)accuracy.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:18 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
We're allowed to pay attention to the biases of kooky sources. It's up to the one who presents the source to choose the non-kooky source over the kooky one. The OP made the mistake, not the people pointing out how biased his source is.
You're not allowed to continue to reject the claims based on the perceived bias of the source after it has already been shown that the claims are consistent with the claims in various other, presumably less biased, sources.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If by little you mean infants then there's no harm. Perhaps in your culture its ok for little girls and teens to see male private areas but in most parts of America that would be considered indecent exposure.
You’ve never been to a beach.

Noted
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:33 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Again, your argument depends on misgendering. That "boy" identifies as a girl.
To be fair, the boy's argument also depends on misgendering.

In fact, the entire controversy we're currently embroiled in is exactly a debate over the very question you're working so hard to beg.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:40 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have to agree that worrying about some specific period shaming or menstrual product fetish seems a bit too far-fetched.

But I think there is a point here. Mixed sex bathrooms and changing rooms for middle schoolers seems like a bad idea to me. Pubescent children have lots of anxiety around body image and sexuality in general. It's the inherent condition of children undergoing puberty to be uncomfortable around their bodies and those of the opposite sex. Children of that age can be quite vicious concerning these kinds of subjects and expecting kids to act with poise and decency in these scenarios is unrealistic to the nature of bratty tweens and teens.
There is nothing at all biological about this; it's purely sociological. Your sweeping generalizations are only true in certain circumstances during certain times in history and can (and are) changing constantly.



Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nobody "equated trans-people with sexual predators" - but I won't hold your claim against you, as you're one of the few people here for whom I'm sure that such remarks can be explained by Hanlon's razor.
You are. Indirectly, sure, but it's definitely noticeable.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:45 PM   #178
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If said student is undergoing hormonal therapy, the chances of them having motile sperm are pretty well nil - plus you're going back to the idea that it's all about sex or rape. May I suggest
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:46 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Again, your argument depends on misgendering. That "boy" identifies as a girl.

Still a boy though. As we're talking about school-age children there won't have been any surgery involved, and at the most any medical treatment would be confined to puberty blockers.

The sex of a body is fixed at conception and immutable. "Girl" refers to a young female person, a person with a female body. There is no possibility that a male body can transform into a female body, and in this case no possibility even that surgery or hormones designed to produce a simulacrum of a female body are involved.

A "girl" is someone living in a female body. It's not a costume and it's not a performance and it's not a feeling in a boy's head. A boy may feel uncomfortable being male, he may dislike his male body, but that doesn't make him female.

And we still have no answer as to why his discomfort is worthy of the ruling that he can do whatever he likes as regards using the single-sex spaces reserved for the opposite sex, but the discomfort of the girls - who know perfectly well what a boy is - is worth only of vilification and dismissal.


ETA: I just noticed that in the case cited in the OP, the boy in question is merely "identifying", and "not doing anything to be trans".
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:54 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To my way of thinking, one girl can't make another girl pregnant.

To my way of thinking, biological science knows exactly what a male is and what a female is. I'll discuss the various possibilities arising from DSDs if anyone wants to bring them up, but there is no suggestion that the boy in this example was suffering from any form of DSD.

Given that, this boy possesses a functional SRY gene as part of his genetic makeup, almost certainly located on a Y chromosome. He also has working androgen receptors. These things are what makes him male, because these are the genetic factors that determine whether his body took the male or the female pathway during foetal development.

Neither these genetic features nor the developmental pathway can be removed or reversed. He is not female and he can never become female. It's reasonable to discuss how best to help a boy who is so uncomfortable with his body, within the context of other people having rights too. It's the blanket assumption that his discomfort trumps everything and the discomfort of the girls is of no account and indeed is to be reviled and dismissed that is so offensive.
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Old 25th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
You are. Indirectly, sure, but it's definitely noticeable.
Nonsense. Pull those ridiculous bad faith claims on someone who cares.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th July 2019 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 25th July 2019, 01:37 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
If said student is undergoing hormonal therapy, the chances of them having motile sperm are pretty well nil - plus you're going back to the idea that it's all about sex or rape. May I suggest
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Said student is not, however, according to the girls staging the protest.

It's not "all about sex or rape". It's about the right of young females to the comfort and modesty accorded by having single-sex spaces where they can change their clothes and deal with personal hygiene issues without being subjected to the male gaze. There are of course further concerns that are applicable to a more general discussion, but the case in the OP is about the right of girls to assert their boundaries when a male classmate is allowed free access to their female-segregated spaces.
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Old 25th July 2019, 01:38 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
If said student is undergoing hormonal therapy, the chances of them having motile sperm are pretty well nil -
From long experience, if I write 12 paragraphs, people don't read them. If I write a single paragraph with very explicit definitions, people ignore it and turn it around to something else. If I write one sentence, people act as if that one sentence is somehow definitive, but only for the purpose of pretending to refute an argument by finding some issue with the one sentence.

My position isn't hard to understand. It ought to not be hard to represent.

Quote:
plus you're going back to the idea that it's all about sex or rape
.

I'm not going back. I never left. If I were in the mood to quibble, I would insist that you say "almost all". Of course, when I say "sex", I'm including a lot of sexual behavior under the umbrella, such as a tendency to want to remain clothed in the presence of the opposite sex*, but anyone who reads my posts knows that.

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May I suggest
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Sure. May I suggest http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12765508


*Some exceptions apply.

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Old 25th July 2019, 02:23 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This is at least honest, and it is exactly what the arguments are really all about. Strip away the falsehoods, the straw men, the misrepresentations.
Exactly. It's really about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is real

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To my way of thinking, one girl can't make another girl pregnant.
Gender differences between men and women are many and are obvious in almost every case to almost everyone without ever directly referencing the person's genitals, yet for some reason you find it inconceivable that someone else could be wired to identify with a gender that doesn't match their genitals, despite the fact that nature is filled with all kinds of organisms that belong to one gender or the other, or both genders, or transition from one gender to the other, or just adopt the behavior of the other gender.

That you feel this way is your bias. Science allows for it, it's your emotional reaction that doesn't.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:25 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A "girl" is someone living in a female body. It's not a costume and it's not a performance
You're conflating sex and gender. Some people refuse to accept this distinction, but it exists for a reason. To put it bluntly, gender absolutely is a performance; that's how you, or anyone else, knows that someone is a "girl." Because they act like how you expect a "girl" to act, based on societal expectations. No one out there is checking people's genitalia and performing chromosome tests to see how to interact with a person. Social interactions depend entirely how people act and present themselves, usually dictated by some kind of accepted social role (roles that can change over time, too, for that matter). Very simply, sex is the biological side of things, and gender is the social, which is why the distinction is actually a useful one. Without the distinction, you would have to discuss social roles in terms of medicine and biology, which leads to all kinds of weirdness, like insisting that what clothes a person wears is intrinsically tied in some way to their genitalia.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:33 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly. It's really despite the fact that nature is filled with all kinds of organisms that belong to one gender or the other, or both genders, or transition from one gender to the other, or just adopt the behavior of the other gender.
You don't even have to go to nature for this. Throughout human history, different cultures have had widely different attitudes towards gender, and used all kinds of categorizations for it. Sex, too, for that matter.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:33 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
You're conflating sex and gender. Some people refuse to accept this distinction, but it exists for a reason. To put it bluntly, gender absolutely is a performance; that's how you, or anyone else, knows that someone is a "girl." Because they act like how you expect a "girl" to act, based on societal expectations. No one out there is checking people's genitalia and performing chromosome tests to see how to interact with a person. Social interactions depend entirely how people act and present themselves, usually dictated by some kind of accepted social role (roles that can change over time, too, for that matter). Very simply, sex is the biological side of things, and gender is the social, which is why the distinction is actually a useful one. Without the distinction, you would have to discuss social roles in terms of medicine and biology, which leads to all kinds of weirdness, like insisting that what clothes a person wears is intrinsically tied in some way to their genitalia.

I'm not the one conflating sex and gender! I know exactly what the difference is. Sex is the reality of one's physical body. Gender is a set of regressive stereotypes about what people can wear and what hobbies they can like and what colours they prefer and (in children) what toys they like.

Sex is objective and verifiable and immutable. Gender is subjective and unverifiable and appears capable of changing according to which way the wind blows.

Sex is independent of the clothes you wear or the mannerisms you adopt or the interests you follow. It's also independent of the cosmetic surgery you choose to have or the synthetic hormones you choose to marinate your body in.

Reality is what matters. Also what matters is the ability of human beings of both sexes to be themselves in the way they want to be, without the hormone police coming along and telling them that they "must be trans" if they happen to like the wrong colours or clothes or pastimes.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:45 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not the one conflating sex and gender! I know exactly what the difference is. Sex is the reality of one's physical body. Gender is a set of regressive stereotypes about what people can wear and what hobbies they can like and what colours they prefer and (in children) what toys they like.

Sex is objective and verifiable and immutable. Gender is subjective and unverifiable and appears capable of changing according to which way the wind blows.

Sex is independent of the clothes you wear or the mannerisms you adopt or the interests you follow. It's also independent of the cosmetic surgery you choose to have or the synthetic hormones you choose to marinate your body in.

Reality is what matters. Also what matters is the ability of human beings of both sexes to be themselves in the way they want to be, without the hormone police coming along and telling them that they "must be trans" if they happen to like the wrong colours or clothes or pastimes.
So what point are you trying to make? You keep denying that individual in question can identify as a girl because they're "still a boy." You can say you understand the difference all you want, but that doesn't seem to be how you actually feel, or at least, not how you're presenting your argument. What do you consider the "reality" about trans people? Why do you think people should be able to be themselves as they wish, but keep insisting that the individual in question can't be a girl, and is a "still a boy?"

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Old 25th July 2019, 02:50 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly. It's really about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is real
I disagree. I think it's about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is dysphoria.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:51 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
So what point are you trying to make? You keep denying that individual in question can identify as a girl because they're "still a boy." You can say you understand the difference all you want, but that doesn't seem to be how you actually feel, or at least, not how you're presenting your argument. What do you consider the "reality" about trans people? Why do you think people should be able to be themselves as they wish, but keep insisting that the individual in question can't be a girl, and is a "still a boy?"

The reality is that they have a mental illness that makes causes them to feel extreme discomfort with their sexed bodies. Or else they're males with autogynaephilia, not all of whom have any discomfort with their bodies or any desire to change them. They deserve proper mental health diagnosis and care, and whatever treatment seems most likely to alleviate their discomfort stopping short of giving them the legal right to violate the rights of other people.

Single-sex spaces are single-sex spaces. They're about the reality of sexed bodies, not about nebulous feelings in people's heads, or LARPing, or a costume, or a performance.

The individual can't be a girl because he isn't a girl, no more than I can be 16, or six feet tall, or black. Physical reality is important and words mean things.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:54 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly. It's really about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is real
Is that really what it's about?

Really really?

I call shenanigans. I don't think that's really what it's about at all.

One reason I don't think that is because that isn't what it's about for me.

For me, it's about accepting that gender dysphoria is real, but not being sure that validating the condition is the best form of treatment, neither for the sufferer nor for the rest of society.

So no, not really. You're just pulling crap out of your ass. At least it's is the right place to pull crap from, so you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:58 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I disagree. I think it's about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is dysphoria.
When you guys are done circle-jerking each other (sorry, is that euphemism too gendered?), maybe you should take the time to actually talk to some of the other participants in this thread. While I don't agree with her on everything, I think Rolfe has been very clear about what she thinks it's about.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:59 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, it's about accepting that gender dysphoria is real, but not being sure that validating the condition is the best form of treatment, neither for the sufferer nor for the rest of society.

I think that for some people actually transitioning is the best way to go. I have several transsexual friends who have come through it very well, feel settled and happy, and would do it all again if they had their lives over. They're also (mostly) absolutely horrified both by the concept of self-ID and by the current craze for transing children, for what it's worth.
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Old 25th July 2019, 03:15 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Reality is what matters.
Let's hope then that you wake up from your radical feminist fever dream.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:50 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nonsense. Pull those ridiculous bad faith claims on someone who cares.
I don't care that you don't care. You're the only one who decided to compare a transgender person and societal norms and pedophilia in some weird hypothetical in this thread, not anyone else. If you don't like the responses perhaps choosing a different hypothetical, or use no hypothetical at all, would be best instead of dodging the inference you clearly made.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:17 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What you mean is: it's been rejected by you
You have a talent for stating the trivially obvious.

Quote:
but I don't see why I should care much about that.
I love people who simultaneously claim not to care about what other people think and expend time and energy to convince them.

Quote:
Well then, having established that it's possible to organize this without involving danger to the children, then why aren't schools doing this?
I'm sure you think you're being really clever, but I assure you, you're being really silly. You can't trap me in a logic loop, here. I'm talking about perceived danger. It won't go away, and that's one of several reasons why schools don't engage in the stupid nonsense you suggest.

Quote:
Not at all
Then why the hell did you even suggest it?

Do you have issues following our discussion, here? You seem to be losing the thread.

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No, liberals - and to a slightly lesser extent conservatives - are more prone to approach a subject from a perspective of moral virtuousness rather than a perspective of factual analysis, as they are looking to pass moral judgement rather than analysis.
You have no reason to claim that conservatives, or marxists or any other ideological group, does this less than "liberals".
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:22 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
You're conflating sex and gender. Some people refuse to accept this distinction, but it exists for a reason.
Well it sounds to a lot of people like this distinction was introduced rather recently just so as to support this very argument. I can't say I blame them, as until a couple of years ago I hadn't even heard of the distinction which, in the French world, is kinda normal.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:26 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I call shenanigans.
Careful, you'll get in trouble again!
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:58 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The reality is that they have a mental illness that makes causes them to feel extreme discomfort with their sexed bodies.
Transgenderism is not a mental illness.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:33 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Transgenderism is not a mental illness.
You might want to get them to remove it from the official "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)" list of mental disorders then
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