2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II - Page 8

varwoche · 10th August 2019, 06:24 AM

Getting directly to the source to avoid confusion, here is Warren's plan.

Like it or not, clearly it's a plan with specific points that are obviously pertinent to rural America. I suspect that people who dismiss this as a non-plan are echoing right wing BS, as opposed to reading the plan.

varwoche · 10th August 2019, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I do't know about the Scientoogy claim, but any review of Williamson past shows she is a classic New Age Nutjob.

That's what I think too. She has said all sorts of things that are sure not to be popular with people who are reality-based. But just because we have a low opinion of her doesn't mean it's copacetic to hang every tenuous rumor around her neck.

I'd also like to remind readers that professional bodies such as the APA question how much anti-depressants are prescribed.

Aridas · 10th August 2019, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by applecorped

You obviously didn't read it because there's no plan there just the usual rail against big business and the promise of medicare-for-all and hopefully that'll help rural America ..........somehow

That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that.

Originally Posted by jimbob

That’s why I’ve pledged to address consolidation in the agriculture sector by reviewing — and reversing — anti-competitive mergers and breaking up big agribusinesses that have become vertically integrated.
And I’ll take it one step further — charting a new farm economy that replaces our government’s failed approach with one that guarantees farmers a fair price and protects our environment.

I'm not sure how these last two would work, or indeed if it would actually be a good idea, but that is indeed more than just "medicare for all".

For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall.

Originally Posted by varwoche

I didn't follow the link -- it wants a sign-in.

Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so.

jimbob · 10th August 2019, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that.

For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall.

Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so.

theprestige · 10th August 2019, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

How is that different?
Obviously membership and supporting the organization isn't true, but yes, is the answer to your first question.

I disagree. I think that there's a big difference between holding similar views, and endorsing someone else's views.

Also, Scientology is a cynical scam that preaches anti-psychiatry in support of their own alternative offering, upon which their entire business model is based.

People who have misgivings about psychiatry for other reasons are not endorsing Scientology and don't concern me the way Scientologists concern me. She can be wrong about psychology without being a Scientologist, and that seems to be the case here.

Quote:

So Williamson has been citing a Scientology paper but otherwise has no connection to promoting Scientology. Seems clear enough including how Wasapi's mistake happened.
Instead of trying to change the subject to Wasapi's comment (which needed to be addressed mind you but now has been), perhaps we can get back to all the reasons supporting Williamson is either trolling, or impossible to honestly and intelligently support given she's a nut-case.

Okay, sure. Be my guest. But I voted for Trump in 2016. You're probably going to have a hard time finding a mainstream Dem candidate I'd prefer over Williamson. Who should I like more? Biden? Harris? Mayor Pete? Roberto O'Rourke?

Skeptic Ginger · 10th August 2019, 11:55 AM

Williamson is giving her 15 minute speech at the Iowa State Fair on CSPAN.

She's spewing a big CT that all health problems are caused by chemicals in the environment, corporations are poisoning you, we don't need health insurance reform, we need to get chemicals out of the environment.

If you can stomach it and you really want to know what she's about: watch for yourself.

WilliamSeger · 10th August 2019, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Unknown

Trump says that even Joe Biden is a radical leftist. Hell, Joe is so middle-of-the-road, he had one ball removed to be closer to the national average.

applecorped · 10th August 2019, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that.

For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall.

Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so.

somehow...

varwoche · 10th August 2019, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

somehow...

What, is that some sort of terse patois meaning "Oops I really stepped in it this time "?

Aridas · 10th August 2019, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

time well spent

I'm glad you like me comforting you that much!

jimbob · 11th August 2019, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by applecorped

somehow...

Go on, why don't you explain how Trump's policy of trashing US soybean and grain exports is better for rural America than Warren's proposals?

The Atheist · 11th August 2019, 12:39 PM

The Biden train must surely have left the station now?

Quote:

poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids

Venom · 11th August 2019, 01:09 PM

Biden caught himself there a bit afterwards, but the damage was done.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 03:52 PM

Watched Tom Steyer at the Iowa Fair on CSPAN. I hope he makes it to the debate stage. I could vote for this guy.

I'm trying hard to favor a female candidate but when I hear Steyer I'm impressed. I remember how much Obama was still establishment, not that Obama didn't do a great job, but there were disappointments. The only female candidate I think is not more of the same establishment is Warren and I'm not totally convinced she could win against Trump. It's too easy for the right wing to demonize 'socialists'.

The Atheist · 11th August 2019, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

Biden caught himself there a bit afterwards, but the damage was done.

More importantly. Joe is as likely to trip over his own tongue as Trump, and you'd really want someone with clear and concise speech to make a fool of him than another old white bloke who's as likely as Trump to say something outrageous.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

More importantly. Joe is as likely to trip over his own tongue as Trump, and you'd really want someone with clear and concise speech to make a fool of him than another old white bloke who's as likely as Trump to say something outrageous.

He's simply uninspiring and that's a bad place to start from.

Cabbage · 11th August 2019, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Watched Tom Steyer at the Iowa Fair on CSPAN. I hope he makes it to the debate stage. I could vote for this guy.

I'm trying hard to favor a female candidate but when I hear Steyer I'm impressed. I remember how much Obama was still establishment, not that Obama didn't do a great job, but there were disappointments. The only female candidate I think is not more of the same establishment is Warren and I'm not totally convinced she could win against Trump. It's too easy for the right wing to demonize 'socialists'.

In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'.

Aridas · 11th August 2019, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'.

And already has, really. Once more, understand and remember that "socialist" is being used by a number of these people in ways that include such controversial things as supporting public schooling. Thus, all the Democratic Party candidates easily apply.

It may also be worth noting that the current push for charter/private schools can likely be largely traced back to Virginia - as they fought against school desegregation. They literally passed and enforced laws to force the shut down of public schools that were willing to go along with the Supreme Court decision requiring that public schools desegregate while working on getting a private schools where they could still legally segregate running and a lot of the other southern states followed their lead. If I recall correctly, one of the major reasons that Harry Byrd, one of the extremely influential political figures in Virginia at the time, fell from grace largely because he was favoring the complete abolition of public schooling as the solution to that Supreme Court decision. That's not to say that it was all about racism, however much racism was inseparable from the decision-making process in a number of ways (when extremely racist rules are very, very strongly stacking the deck in one's political and economic favor and the other answers than racism mostly only come out with extra prompting, it's safe to call it inseparable). That's a bit of an aside, though.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'.

No, not buying that. Sanders and Warren are campaigning on free ponies. No one else is that blatant.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Also wrong.

Much to your probable disappointment, few on this forum are stupid enough to believe you actually support Williamson.

Brainster · 11th August 2019, 06:05 PM

My take is that we are down to 3 candidates. Harris and Buttigieg are now out; they were 4 and 5 respectively, It's really Bernie, Biden or Warren, and my money's on Warren. Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow.

The Biden-Warren-Bernie match sets up an interesting dynamic. We have heard endlessly about the gender gap; that women tend to vote for the Democrats more than men. This logically implies that there are more female Democrats than male--does this give Warren an advantage? OTOH, you could argue that Biden represents the establishment Dems while Warren and Bernie split the radical wing. Warren would have one big advantage--she would be the youngest among the three, even if she isn't by much.

Cabbage · 11th August 2019, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No, not buying that. Sanders and Warren are campaigning on free ponies. No one else is that blatant.

I think you're overestimating the "integrity" of the GOP. It doesn't matter whether Biden, Harris, et al are campaigning on free ponies or not: The GOP have already decided to claim that they are.

Quote:

“I think the choice that we face in the country today is a choice between freedom and socialism, increasingly. President Trump has been advocating an agenda that’s built on the principles of freedom in the marketplaces, lower taxes, less regulation, more access to energy, better, fair trade deals,” Pence told CNBC on Friday.

“But increasingly, whether it be Joe Biden, whether it be Bernie Sanders, whether it be Elizabeth Warren and others in their party, they’re advocating a socialist agenda of more government, higher taxes and the same tired policies that created the malaise of the last administration where you saw less than 2 percent economic growth,” Pence said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...cialist-agenda

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

My take is that we are down to 3 candidates. Harris and Buttigieg are now out; they were 4 and 5 respectively, It's really Bernie, Biden or Warren, and my money's on Warren. Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow.

The Biden-Warren-Bernie match sets up an interesting dynamic. We have heard endlessly about the gender gap; that women tend to vote for the Democrats more than men. This logically implies that there are more female Democrats than male--does this give Warren an advantage? OTOH, you could argue that Biden represents the establishment Dems while Warren and Bernie split the radical wing. Warren would have one big advantage--she would be the youngest among the three, even if she isn't by much.

Well isn't that special.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

I think you're overestimating the "integrity" of the GOP. It doesn't matter whether Biden, Harris, et al are campaigning on free ponies or not: The GOP have already decided to claim that they are.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...cialist-agenda

No, of course the GOP is going to scream socialism no matter who the candidate is.

IMO, the independents are going to hear, yeah sure, you say that about everyone when it comes to the no-free-ponies candidates. But with Warren and Sanders, the accusation is going to ring true.

The Atheist · 11th August 2019, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

My take is that we are down to 3 candidates.

I concur almost exactly with your premise on this, and Warren is the only with forward momentum, so I'm hopeful that's where the nomination goes.

Cabbage · 11th August 2019, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No, of course the GOP is going to scream socialism no matter who the candidate is.

IMO, the independents are going to hear, yeah sure, you say that about everyone when it comes to the no-free-ponies candidates. But with Warren and Sanders, the accusation is going to ring true.

Well then what free ponies, specifically, are you referring to? Looking around I'm seeing that a majority of Americans (even Republicans in some cases) support such free ponies as Medicare for all, taxing the wealthy, and student loan forgiveness.

For examples:

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...arrens-college

https://fortune.com/2019/02/04/suppo...mericans-poll/

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...e-for-all-poll

Skeptic Ginger · 11th August 2019, 10:29 PM

Free ponies: free college for everyone.
Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all.
Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all.
Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population.
Guarantee government jobs for everyone.

That's part of the list.

Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals.

And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note:

Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder

He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP.

Cabbage · 11th August 2019, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Free ponies: free college for everyone.
Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all.
Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all.
Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population.
Guarantee government jobs for everyone.

That's part of the list.

Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals.

And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note:

Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder

He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP.

Like I said previously, they're going to be smeared by the GOP regardless of what they propose. And I think you overestimate the influence that the GOP's lies have on independents--there is significant support for many of the free ponies you mention, as well. After decades of having government placate corporations and the wealthy I think many independents will be ready for at least a push in the direction that Warren proposes (and I say "at least a push" because I think that's what it will amount to at best; assuming she even wins the presidency I strongly doubt Congress will OK a lot of what she proposes....I do think, however, that a significant number of Americans really want that push to happen).

Distracted1 · 12th August 2019, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Free ponies: free college for everyone.
Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all.
Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all.
Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population.
Guarantee government jobs for everyone.

That's part of the list.

Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals.

And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note:

Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder

He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP.

Its a shame that Bidens' years seem to be catching up with him faster than he can get to the general election.
I don't see any of the other front runners as being likely to unseat Trump.

Belz... · 12th August 2019, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Harris and Buttigieg are now out

...what?

Childlike Empress · 12th August 2019, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow.

That was after Tulsi "destroyed" her. She sank from 27% of black Democrat voters in the same poll a month earlier to 1% shortly after the debate.

WilliamSeger · 12th August 2019, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Its a shame that Bidens' years seem to be catching up with him faster than he can get to the general election.
I don't see any of the other front runners as being likely to unseat Trump.

At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run, so I think we should just focus on picking the one who will do the best job. Trump was already in serious trouble with independents -- 52% will "definitely not" be voting for him -- yet he's stuck in the mode of pitching the same demagoguery and alternate reality crap to the same adoring base. Conventional wisdom said he had some chance if the economy was still good next year, but his idiotic trade war has shot that chance all to hell. The election will be Trump's unshakable base versus an anti-Trump blowout.

Distracted1 · 12th August 2019, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run, so I think we should just focus on picking the one who will do the best job. Trump was already in serious trouble with independents -- 52% will "definitely not" be voting for him -- yet he's stuck in the mode of pitching the same demagoguery and alternate reality crap to the same adoring base. Conventional wisdom said he had some chance if the economy was still good next year, but his idiotic trade war has shot that chance all to hell. The election will be Trump's unshakable base versus an anti-Trump blowout.

I doubt that premise.
The trade war with China- (even with deleterious effects on the general economy)-will play very well in the "rust belt".
Remember that it became the "rust" belt largely due to the competition from Asia beginning in the 70s and 80s.
The tariffs are exactly the type of policy the people of those regions feel are needed, unfortunately they are about 40 years too late.

Belz... · 12th August 2019, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run

That's what we thought four years ago.

WilliamSeger · 12th August 2019, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That's what we thought four years ago.

If he can get Hillary to run again, that might work.

Delvo · 12th August 2019, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That's what we thought four years ago.

It's what some people thought four years ago. Pretending nobody saw reality for what it was is just feeding into the pro-Trump narrative.

Belz... · 12th August 2019, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

If he can get Hillary to run again, that might work.

The point is that you shouldn't assume you're going to win. You have to go with a candidate that will get votes, first, and do the job, second.

WilliamSeger · 12th August 2019, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

I doubt that premise.
The trade war with China- (even with deleterious effects on the general economy)-will play very well in the "rust belt".
Remember that it became the "rust" belt largely due to the competition from Asia beginning in the 70s and 80s.
The tariffs are exactly the type of policy the people of those regions feel are needed, unfortunately they are about 40 years too late.

The problem with a trade war is that it hurts many more people than it helps. Trump saved some jobs in the steel industry with a tariff but at a cost of even more jobs in industries that are now paying more for steel. Farmers are now catching on to the fact that Trump is a clueless, ego-driven idiot.

WilliamSeger · 12th August 2019, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

The point is that you shouldn't assume you're going to win. You have to go with a candidate that will get votes, first, and do the job, second.

Oh, I don't think many Dems are assuming he will lose. There's going to be a GOTV effort like we've never seen.

Distracted1 · 12th August 2019, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

The problem with a trade war is that it hurts many more people than it helps. Trump saved some jobs in the steel industry with a tariff but at a cost of even more jobs in industries that are now paying more for steel. Farmers are now catching on to the fact that Trump is a clueless, ego-driven idiot.

The way the elections work, however, means that it is not necessarily about how many people a particular policy hurts (compared to how many it helps). Moreover it is about where those people happen to vote.

10th August 2019, 06:24 AM	#281
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 13,823	Getting directly to the source to avoid confusion, here is Warren's plan. Like it or not, clearly it's a plan with specific points that are obviously pertinent to rural America. I suspect that people who dismiss this as a non-plan are echoing right wing BS, as opposed to reading the plan.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot. Last edited by varwoche; 10th August 2019 at 06:27 AM.

10th August 2019, 06:36 AM	#282
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 13,823	Originally Posted by dudalb I do't know about the Scientoogy claim, but any review of Williamson past shows she is a classic New Age Nutjob. That's what I think too. She has said all sorts of things that are sure not to be popular with people who are reality-based. But just because we have a low opinion of her doesn't mean it's copacetic to hang every tenuous rumor around her neck. I'd also like to remind readers that professional bodies such as the APA question how much anti-depressants are prescribed.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

10th August 2019, 06:37 AM	#283
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by applecorped You obviously didn't read it because there's no plan there just the usual rail against big business and the promise of medicare-for-all and hopefully that'll help rural America ..........somehow That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that. Originally Posted by jimbob That’s why I’ve pledged to address consolidation in the agriculture sector by reviewing — and reversing — anti-competitive mergers and breaking up big agribusinesses that have become vertically integrated. And I’ll take it one step further — charting a new farm economy that replaces our government’s failed approach with one that guarantees farmers a fair price and protects our environment. I'm not sure how these last two would work, or indeed if it would actually be a good idea, but that is indeed more than just "medicare for all". For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall. Originally Posted by varwoche I didn't follow the link -- it wants a sign-in. Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

10th August 2019, 06:41 AM	#284
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 21,567	Originally Posted by Aridas That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that. For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall. Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

10th August 2019, 11:55 AM	#286
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Williamson is giving her 15 minute speech at the Iowa State Fair on CSPAN. She's spewing a big CT that all health problems are caused by chemicals in the environment, corporations are poisoning you, we don't need health insurance reform, we need to get chemicals out of the environment. If you can stomach it and you really want to know what she's about: watch for yourself.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

10th August 2019, 08:14 AM	#285
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,088	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger How is that different? Obviously membership and supporting the organization isn't true, but yes, is the answer to your first question. I disagree. I think that there's a big difference between holding similar views, and endorsing someone else's views. Also, Scientology is a cynical scam that preaches anti-psychiatry in support of their own alternative offering, upon which their entire business model is based. People who have misgivings about psychiatry for other reasons are not endorsing Scientology and don't concern me the way Scientologists concern me. She can be wrong about psychology without being a Scientologist, and that seems to be the case here. Quote: So Williamson has been citing a Scientology paper but otherwise has no connection to promoting Scientology. Seems clear enough including how Wasapi's mistake happened. Instead of trying to change the subject to Wasapi's comment (which needed to be addressed mind you but now has been), perhaps we can get back to all the reasons supporting Williamson is either trolling, or impossible to honestly and intelligently support given she's a nut-case. Okay, sure. Be my guest. But I voted for Trump in 2016. You're probably going to have a hard time finding a mainstream Dem candidate I'd prefer over Williamson. Who should I like more? Biden? Harris? Mayor Pete? Roberto O'Rourke?

10th August 2019, 02:17 PM	#287
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,088	Originally Posted by Unknown Trump says that even Joe Biden is a radical leftist. Hell, Joe is so middle-of-the-road, he had one ball removed to be closer to the national average.

10th August 2019, 02:46 PM	#288
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 19,804	Originally Posted by Aridas That's really all that deserves, especially after jimbob took the time to illustrate how horrendously wrong you are. Thank you, jimbob, for sparing me any reason to respond with more than that. For those last two... if you're curious, they're gone into in much more depth with Leveling the Playing Field for America’s Family Farmers and A New Farm Economy, respectively. Unsurprisingly, both look rather sensible, overall. Small note - Medium has yet to actually require me to sign-in. I've been able to close the request and even just refresh the page to avoid being bothered to do so. somehow...
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

10th August 2019, 05:46 PM	#289
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 13,823	Originally Posted by applecorped somehow... What, is that some sort of terse patois meaning "Oops I really stepped in it this time "?
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

10th August 2019, 09:13 PM	#290
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by applecorped time well spent I'm glad you like me comforting you that much!
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

11th August 2019, 02:51 AM	#291
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 21,567	Originally Posted by applecorped somehow... Go on, why don't you explain how Trump's policy of trashing US soybean and grain exports is better for rural America than Warren's proposals?
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

11th August 2019, 12:39 PM	#292
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,310	The Biden train must surely have left the station now? Quote: poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th August 2019, 01:09 PM	#293
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 3,576	Biden caught himself there a bit afterwards, but the damage was done.

11th August 2019, 03:52 PM	#294
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Watched Tom Steyer at the Iowa Fair on CSPAN. I hope he makes it to the debate stage. I could vote for this guy. I'm trying hard to favor a female candidate but when I hear Steyer I'm impressed. I remember how much Obama was still establishment, not that Obama didn't do a great job, but there were disappointments. The only female candidate I think is not more of the same establishment is Warren and I'm not totally convinced she could win against Trump. It's too easy for the right wing to demonize 'socialists'.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 04:08 PM	#295
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,310	Originally Posted by Venom Biden caught himself there a bit afterwards, but the damage was done. More importantly. Joe is as likely to trip over his own tongue as Trump, and you'd really want someone with clear and concise speech to make a fool of him than another old white bloke who's as likely as Trump to say something outrageous.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th August 2019, 04:12 PM	#296
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Originally Posted by The Atheist More importantly. Joe is as likely to trip over his own tongue as Trump, and you'd really want someone with clear and concise speech to make a fool of him than another old white bloke who's as likely as Trump to say something outrageous. He's simply uninspiring and that's a bad place to start from.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 04:26 PM	#297
Cabbage Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,891	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Watched Tom Steyer at the Iowa Fair on CSPAN. I hope he makes it to the debate stage. I could vote for this guy. I'm trying hard to favor a female candidate but when I hear Steyer I'm impressed. I remember how much Obama was still establishment, not that Obama didn't do a great job, but there were disappointments. The only female candidate I think is not more of the same establishment is Warren and I'm not totally convinced she could win against Trump. It's too easy for the right wing to demonize 'socialists'. In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'.
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11th August 2019, 05:20 PM	#298
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by Cabbage In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'. And already has, really. Once more, understand and remember that "socialist" is being used by a number of these people in ways that include such controversial things as supporting public schooling. Thus, all the Democratic Party candidates easily apply. It may also be worth noting that the current push for charter/private schools can likely be largely traced back to Virginia - as they fought against school desegregation. They literally passed and enforced laws to force the shut down of public schools that were willing to go along with the Supreme Court decision requiring that public schools desegregate while working on getting a private schools where they could still legally segregate running and a lot of the other southern states followed their lead. If I recall correctly, one of the major reasons that Harry Byrd, one of the extremely influential political figures in Virginia at the time, fell from grace largely because he was favoring the complete abolition of public schooling as the solution to that Supreme Court decision. That's not to say that it was all about racism, however much racism was inseparable from the decision-making process in a number of ways (when extremely racist rules are very, very strongly stacking the deck in one's political and economic favor and the other answers than racism mostly only come out with extra prompting, it's safe to call it inseparable). That's a bit of an aside, though.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 11th August 2019 at 05:24 PM.

11th August 2019, 05:50 PM	#299
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Originally Posted by Cabbage In fact, it's so easy that any Democratic candidate that wins the nomination will be demonized as 'socialist'. No, not buying that. Sanders and Warren are campaigning on free ponies. No one else is that blatant.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 05:52 PM	#300
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Originally Posted by theprestige Also wrong. Much to your probable disappointment, few on this forum are stupid enough to believe you actually support Williamson.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 06:05 PM	#301
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 17,302	My take is that we are down to 3 candidates. Harris and Buttigieg are now out; they were 4 and 5 respectively, It's really Bernie, Biden or Warren, and my money's on Warren. Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow. The Biden-Warren-Bernie match sets up an interesting dynamic. We have heard endlessly about the gender gap; that women tend to vote for the Democrats more than men. This logically implies that there are more female Democrats than male--does this give Warren an advantage? OTOH, you could argue that Biden represents the establishment Dems while Warren and Bernie split the radical wing. Warren would have one big advantage--she would be the youngest among the three, even if she isn't by much.
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11th August 2019, 06:14 PM	#302
Cabbage Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,891	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger No, not buying that. Sanders and Warren are campaigning on free ponies. No one else is that blatant. I think you're overestimating the "integrity" of the GOP. It doesn't matter whether Biden, Harris, et al are campaigning on free ponies or not: The GOP have already decided to claim that they are. Quote: “I think the choice that we face in the country today is a choice between freedom and socialism, increasingly. President Trump has been advocating an agenda that’s built on the principles of freedom in the marketplaces, lower taxes, less regulation, more access to energy, better, fair trade deals,” Pence told CNBC on Friday. “But increasingly, whether it be Joe Biden, whether it be Bernie Sanders, whether it be Elizabeth Warren and others in their party, they’re advocating a socialist agenda of more government, higher taxes and the same tired policies that created the malaise of the last administration where you saw less than 2 percent economic growth,” Pence said. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...cialist-agenda
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11th August 2019, 07:38 PM	#303
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Originally Posted by Brainster My take is that we are down to 3 candidates. Harris and Buttigieg are now out; they were 4 and 5 respectively, It's really Bernie, Biden or Warren, and my money's on Warren. Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow. The Biden-Warren-Bernie match sets up an interesting dynamic. We have heard endlessly about the gender gap; that women tend to vote for the Democrats more than men. This logically implies that there are more female Democrats than male--does this give Warren an advantage? OTOH, you could argue that Biden represents the establishment Dems while Warren and Bernie split the radical wing. Warren would have one big advantage--she would be the youngest among the three, even if she isn't by much. Well isn't that special.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 07:40 PM	#304
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Originally Posted by Cabbage I think you're overestimating the "integrity" of the GOP. It doesn't matter whether Biden, Harris, et al are campaigning on free ponies or not: The GOP have already decided to claim that they are. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...cialist-agenda No, of course the GOP is going to scream socialism no matter who the candidate is. IMO, the independents are going to hear, yeah sure, you say that about everyone when it comes to the no-free-ponies candidates. But with Warren and Sanders, the accusation is going to ring true.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 07:54 PM	#305
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,310	Originally Posted by Brainster My take is that we are down to 3 candidates. I concur almost exactly with your premise on this, and Warren is the only with forward momentum, so I'm hopeful that's where the nomination goes.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th August 2019, 10:02 PM	#306
Cabbage Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,891	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger No, of course the GOP is going to scream socialism no matter who the candidate is. IMO, the independents are going to hear, yeah sure, you say that about everyone when it comes to the no-free-ponies candidates. But with Warren and Sanders, the accusation is going to ring true. Well then what free ponies, specifically, are you referring to? Looking around I'm seeing that a majority of Americans (even Republicans in some cases) support such free ponies as Medicare for all, taxing the wealthy, and student loan forgiveness. For examples: https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...arrens-college https://fortune.com/2019/02/04/suppo...mericans-poll/ https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...e-for-all-poll
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11th August 2019, 10:29 PM	#307
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 77,962	Free ponies: free college for everyone. Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all. Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all. Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population. Guarantee government jobs for everyone. That's part of the list. Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals. And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note: Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

11th August 2019, 11:19 PM	#308
Cabbage Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,891	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Free ponies: free college for everyone. Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all. Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all. Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population. Guarantee government jobs for everyone. That's part of the list. Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals. And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note: Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP. Like I said previously, they're going to be smeared by the GOP regardless of what they propose. And I think you overestimate the influence that the GOP's lies have on independents--there is significant support for many of the free ponies you mention, as well. After decades of having government placate corporations and the wealthy I think many independents will be ready for at least a push in the direction that Warren proposes (and I say "at least a push" because I think that's what it will amount to at best; assuming she even wins the presidency I strongly doubt Congress will OK a lot of what she proposes....I do think, however, that a significant number of Americans really want that push to happen).
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12th August 2019, 04:11 AM	#309
Distracted1 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,335	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Free ponies: free college for everyone. Universal Child Care and Early Learning for all. Warren wants to ban private health insurance along with Medicare for all. Rent subsidies for large numbers of the population. Guarantee government jobs for everyone. That's part of the list. Some of these things are rooted in good ideas. But already the candidates are being smeared because of the proposals. And on the 'Biden is going to blow it' note: Biden Misdates 2018 Parkland Shooting in His Latest Blunder He didn't just misdate it, he claimed he was VP when it happened, but it was well after he was no longer VP. Its a shame that Bidens' years seem to be catching up with him faster than he can get to the general election. I don't see any of the other front runners as being likely to unseat Trump.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

12th August 2019, 04:38 AM	#310
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,624	Originally Posted by Brainster Harris and Buttigieg are now out ...what?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

12th August 2019, 04:45 AM	#311
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 17,816	Originally Posted by Brainster Harris is out because she can't break Biden's lock on black voters; I read (can't find link) there was a Quinnipiac poll out there with her getting 1% of black voters nationally. Wow. That was after Tulsi "destroyed" her. She sank from 27% of black Democrat voters in the same poll a month earlier to 1% shortly after the debate.
	__________________ Audiatur et altera pars

12th August 2019, 05:48 AM	#312
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,088	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Its a shame that Bidens' years seem to be catching up with him faster than he can get to the general election. I don't see any of the other front runners as being likely to unseat Trump. At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run, so I think we should just focus on picking the one who will do the best job. Trump was already in serious trouble with independents -- 52% will "definitely not" be voting for him -- yet he's stuck in the mode of pitching the same demagoguery and alternate reality crap to the same adoring base. Conventional wisdom said he had some chance if the economy was still good next year, but his idiotic trade war has shot that chance all to hell. The election will be Trump's unshakable base versus an anti-Trump blowout.

12th August 2019, 05:56 AM	#313
Distracted1 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,335	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run, so I think we should just focus on picking the one who will do the best job. Trump was already in serious trouble with independents -- 52% will "definitely not" be voting for him -- yet he's stuck in the mode of pitching the same demagoguery and alternate reality crap to the same adoring base. Conventional wisdom said he had some chance if the economy was still good next year, but his idiotic trade war has shot that chance all to hell. The election will be Trump's unshakable base versus an anti-Trump blowout. I doubt that premise. The trade war with China- (even with deleterious effects on the general economy)-will play very well in the "rust belt". Remember that it became the "rust" belt largely due to the competition from Asia beginning in the 70s and 80s. The tariffs are exactly the type of policy the people of those regions feel are needed, unfortunately they are about 40 years too late.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

12th August 2019, 05:58 AM	#314
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,624	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger At this point, I really don't see any way for Trump to win regardless of who we run That's what we thought four years ago.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

12th August 2019, 05:59 AM	#315
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,088	Originally Posted by Belz... That's what we thought four years ago. If he can get Hillary to run again, that might work.