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#361 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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Yes....in a squeaker of an election that came down to ~70,000 votes in three states.
...and that was against an establishment candidate in an era when much of the electorate is fed up with establishment candidates, yet you want to try going with the establishment candidate again for some reason. |
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#362 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,967
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They didn't vote for Trump as an outside the establishment candidate. They voted for Trump to punish the establishment. Everything going wrong isn't a bug, it's a feature.
I don't know how to keep saying this to people. Trump wasn't elected as a candidate. He was elected as a punishment. He's a troll writ large. Why is Trump going to be re-elected? Because how much he's broken the country is the point, not a side effect. Trump was a reckoning. A brick thrown the window of a country that had left everyone more then walking distance from two Starbucks and a vinyl record store behind. It's not them saving themselves or making things better for themselves anymore. They're past that. Way past that. When you put a bag of flaming dog poop outside your exe's door and ding-dong-ditch them... it's not in hope of you getting back with them. And Trump is America Conservative's Bag of Flaming Dog Poop. They don't even necessarily like the Flaming Dog Poop themselves. I'm sure some do and some don't but in the end it's just a tool to hurt people with more then anything else. This is a dying, scared, and angry people trying to do as much damage as they can as they die off. Need proof of this? Look at the board. Notice how almost none of the major Trumpers have any goddamn interest in anything beyond pure trolling? You think that's just an insular problem here on the board? I assure it's not. It manifests in different ways out in the real world, but it's same base mentality. They know things aren't going to get better for them. They don't want things to get better. They have no hope. And nobody is trying to give them any. Trump is selling a perfect coded message of "Let's burn this place to the ground while we can, at least they won't win either" and his opponents have tossed them to the wind as racists and rednecks not worth saving. Whatever good people are left in the margins isn't numbered or organized enough to make a difference. When your opponent is playing "Flip the board over" and not chess it doesn't matter how many moves ahead of him you're thinking. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#363 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#364 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,702
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#365 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,292
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On the nose, sir.
About the simplest way I've put it to a few friends is along the lines of "watch about 5 hours of videos about rust belt stagnation and opioid addiction, then watch that last scene from planet of the apes and cap it off with Aenema by Tool at max volume. Tell me where your headspace is after that. Now imagine living in that headspace for several decades. |
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#366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,164
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In my opinion, they are walking dead. They have not maintained their momentum; if anything Harris is going in reverse. Buttigieg has much the same problem: Negligible support among African-Americans. Here's the Quinnipiac poll I mentioned earlier. Harris and Mayor Pete both are running at margin of error levels of support (1%) among blacks. I don't think you can do that badly among blacks and make up for it elsewhere.
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#367 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#368 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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Yes, very successful target marketing.
This is a bit hard to parse. Who is my establishment candidate? I'm certainly not for Biden. Are you claiming only Sanders and Warren are non-establishment candidates? ![]() After Harris appears to be fizzling out, and Warren made the glaring mistake in the last debate saying she'd abolish all private health insurance, I'm starting to lean toward Steyer. |
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#369 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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Sure, if you don't give a **** about the environment, the increasing rich/poor income gap, trade wars based on Trump's ego, personal vendettas as the business norm, corruption gone mad, turning a faux disaster at the border into a real one, ... etc.
Mind boggling how convenient denial is on the right. Back to the Democratic candidates discussion. |
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#370 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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#371 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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Oh heavens! I have never supported Biden.
I get it, it's hard to keep it straight who supports whom. But seriously, calling people against Sanders and Warren naive, ![]() I have clearly and specifically stated multiple times why I don't support either of them. I posted at length about it in support of Clinton in 2016. I was seriously considering Warren until she screwed up with the banning private health insurance comment. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are naive. |
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#372 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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I never called anyone against Sanders and Warren naive. What I called naive is your default notion that they have no chance against Trump. That's a rather significant distinction. It's your prerogative to support who you choose; your support does not necessarily reflect the support of the general public and to think otherwise is naive. |
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#373 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#374 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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Surely if electability is your concern than choosing Steyer (I mean, who?) over Sanders and Warren is surely a mistake. He polls at one or two percent:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ratic-primary/ |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#375 |
Dark Lord of the JREF
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 4,916
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"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head." |
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#376 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 274
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Why do you think that? Sanders consistently polls as one of the top three candidates, and (per the map posted earlier in this thread) has by far the most individual donors of any of them, with his support pretty constantly spread across the country. Anecdotally, as a person in my 20s, most people I know have been more excited about Bernie in both elections than anyone else by far. He even managed to pull of a wildly success town hall on Fox news.
He's still not my top pick (Warren still has more of a chance of getting establishment support), but I don't see how you could claim that Bernie has no momentum. Fundamentally, he's a populist, and he's been able to build very active followings in two national elections now. |
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#377 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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#378 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#379 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#380 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#381 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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You don't even know what my position is, yet you've stereotyped it to fit your current beliefs.
I know the difference between facts and opinions. It's a fact, Sanders didn't win the 2016 primary. It's a fact Sanders continues to repeat that his plan will work because all these people who didn't vote before are going to show up.
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It's my opinion said revolution of voters is not going to happen at this time to change the US to democratic-socialist government. |
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#382 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,581
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#383 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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Interesting, if you search Google or DuckduckGo, the first hit is a rightwing attack site. The echo/troll/bot machine does that by manipulating Google's algorithm.
Guardian: Tech-savvy rightwingers have been able to ‘game’ the algorithms of internet giants and create a new reality where Hitler is a good guy, Jews are evil and… Donald Trump becomes president But I digress. Moving on, I have found Start Page search is getting better results. https://ballotpedia.org/Thomas_Steyer https://www.tomsteyer.com/about-tom/ Mother Jones: Tom Steyer Has a Big Advantage in the 2020 Race: Your Email Address - It could help him qualify for the debates. He has mine, I gave it to him when he started: https://www.needtoimpeach.com/ Inside Sources: Tom Steyer Has Organization and Money. But Does He Have a Shot? You'll find some criticism on the site but also:
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#384 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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It seems to me that his main strengths could also be a weakness: he’s a hedge fund billionaire who has been the leading Democratic donor. That’s fine for raising money and putting out ads, but it could put off voters who balk at super rich establishment types. Of course money is necessary to run for President but there is little support for the idea that it is sufficient. Trump was also independently wealthy but he was a big name already and won over voters because of what they thought of as his charismatic personality and his audacious attacks on the Republican establishment as well as his liberal opponents. Trump also wasn’t even one of the biggest spenders among presidential candidates because the TV networks were so enthralled by him they gave him all the free air time he needed. Steyer, on the other hand, has none of this name recognition and he has no experience campaigning.
From what I can see he has two main ideas and neither one are going to win him the presidency - climate change and impeaching Trump (the latter of course would be a superfluous campaign pledge anyway). |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#385 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,215
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#386 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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I know it to the extent you've presented it in this thread: Namely, that someone like Warren or Sanders has no chance in the general election. That is an opinion, not a fact, and I consider it a rather naive opinion.
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It's also a fact that none of this is sufficient evidence to support your opinion that I referenced above.
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I agree: It's your opinion. It is most definitely not established fact. |
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#387 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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Clearly, a lot of people here are not posting under their real names, so who knows?
Maybe TragicMonkey is actually Elizabeth Warren, and Brainster is actually Joe Biden, and The Big Dog is actually Mayor Pete, and Skeptic Ginger is actually Corey Booker, and you...you are not fooling us. You are Marianne Williamson! |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#388 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,959
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#389 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#390 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,959
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It depends on your definitions of "North America" and "native". There are monkey populations living in the wilds of South Carolina right now, several generations having been born there. And if you consider the North American continent to begin at the Isthmus of Panama then there are lots of native monkeys. Central America is a region, not a separate continent in itself.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#391 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,859
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#392 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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#393 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#394 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#395 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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They're all millionaires, just about, including Sanders and Warren.
Sanders is a millionaire. Yang is almost certainly rich. DeBlasio, millionaire. Booker and Klobuchar, both somewhere around a millionaire. Bullock, a millionaire Sestak, a millionaire Williamson, millionaire (shock) Hickenlooper, millioniare Warren, very much a millionaire. O'Rourke, very much a millionaire The Bidens have millions and so on and so on... Is George Soros a progressive? Yes. "Two main ideas?" "No experience campaigning?" "No name recoginition?" ![]() |
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#396 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#397 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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Tom Steyer is a billionaire, not a millionaire. And I am saying that that is to his advantage (in one sense - he has money to campaign), but also it doesn't make him attractive in the eyes of people who don't want to vote for super-rich establishment-types. The establishment bit is the bit that could count against him.
And the fact that you are rolling your eyes because I "didn't look very hard" is also a point against him. You are contradicting yourself if you think I should look harder to find his name recognition. If I have to look hard, then he doesn't have it. It's not as if I have to Google Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. They are known. They have name recognition, run for office and been successful. Steyer has never run for office, and is unknown outside of political junky circles. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#398 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,292
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Plus it takes a fundamental misunderstanding of progressive rhetoric. It's not like there's a magic threshold where if you cross over into 10 figures you become an evil James Bond supervillian in the eyes of all the brainwashed cult followers.
If you hold down a good paying job in public service for decades and then write a book about political ideas that sells real well, I probably have no beef with you. If you float around a number of investment banks and hedge funds and then found your own to make your billions and then start plowing all that into political activity and buying influence (even if it pushes policies I agree with), then I'm already halfway to thinking you're the living embodiment of everything wrong with our entire system. |
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#399 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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I never claimed you were poorly informed about Sanders and Warren. I continue to claim you have a poor understanding of their potential to win an election against Trump.
If you're going to complain about me not getting your position, let's reciprocate and I'll wait for you to catch up in your understanding of my position. |
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#400 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
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