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Tags anti-Islam incidents , benjamin netanyahu , Ilhan Omar , Rashida Tlaib , US-Israel relations

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Old 15th August 2019, 04:54 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Insisting on the right of return is equivalent to calling for Israel to be destroyed
THIS.
I think a lot of the Israeli Policy toward the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is wrong and badly mistaken, but the "Right Of Return" is pretty much just a thinly disguised way of saying "Death To Israel".
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Insisting on the right of return is equivalent to calling for Israel to be destroyed
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Does UN Resolution 194 stipulate that?
UN Resolution 194:

Quote:
The United Nations General Assembly adopts resolution 194 (III), resolving that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.”
Quote:
The resolution also called for the establishment of the United Nations Conciliation Commission to facilitate peace between Israel and Arab states, continuing the efforts of UN Mediator Folke Bernadotte, following his assassination
This resolution was passed in 1948. Odd that it hasn't 'destroyed Israel" in the past 71 years.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This is the part that I really don't get. Anyone who's even a little bit comfortable with capitalism cannot cry foul anytime a boycott is proposed. Economic pressure exists in many forms for all kinds of reasons.

It would be foolish to state that anyone proposing boycotts against Israel is anti-semetic. I would be making a similar error if I stated that anyone who voted against Obama was a racist.
Oh, the BDS has a perfect right to call for boycott, and I have a perfect right to ignore it.And is seems to be going nowhere fast. Many people who are critical of Israeli policy don't support the boycott.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:56 PM   #44
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It's amusing watching the BBC's North America editor Jon Sopel, a pure-bred Jew, commentating on this. Sopel hates Trump so much he can't even pretend to adhere to the Beeb's chartered mandate for "impartiality" and is still reflexively delivering his now trademark sneering and opinionating in lieu of reporting (he really does seem to be pushing his luck sometimes), but he doesn't know whether he's coming or going with this one.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
UN Resolution 194:





This resolution was passed in 1948. Odd that it hasn't 'destroyed Israel" in the past 71 years.

Because Israel pretty much ignored it.
It's a dead letter law, anyway.
And I don't regard UN Resolutions as sacred scripture, anyway, A lot of them are windy nonsense, totally unrealistic.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:58 PM   #46
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Mod Warning There is an active thread to discuss the more general I/P topics. This thread is not a general thread as it has a very specific topic so please try to keep on topic for this thread. Thanks.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:02 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the Trump Settlement wasn't? They are really just birds of a feather.

And people call Trump divisive, could anyone else bring so many nazis and zionists together to support him like he has? That is talent right there.
I note your equation of Zionism and Nazism. I guess that is current far left dogma.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:04 PM   #48
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Bibi is taking lots of heat from some in his own party for doing bad damage to Israel just to please Trump.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bibi is taking lots of heat from some in his own party for doing bad damage to Israel just to please Trump.
It would be nice if each side could take it in turns to be crazy.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It would be nice if each side could take it in turns to be crazy.
Even nicer if they were just crazy all the time. We need more crazy!
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:11 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The right of return will destroy Israel as a state, true or false? Feel free to pretend that others are the ignorant ones.
False.

You lied when you said BDS wanted to destroy Israel. Admit it.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Israel doesn't want to allow its country to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance. Can't say as I blame them.

I think you may have misread the first sentence in the CNN story linked to in the OP. Here's what it actually says:

Originally Posted by CNN
Israel announced Thursday it was barring the entry of two Democratic US congresswomen after Donald Trump encouraged the move.

From your comment, it sounds like you misread that as:
Quote:
Israel announced Thursday it was barring the entry of Donald Trump after two Democratic US congresswomen encouraged the move.

Easy mistake to make; people often reverse letters or words in what they read. But, and I'm sorry to have to tell you this, it's the two congresswomen, not Donald Trump, whom Israel is barring entry to.

Yes, you'd be right in thinking that Donald Trump regularly promotes hatred and intolerance by his words and actions; yes, you'd be right in thinking that Donald Trump has on several occasions tried to use Israel as one more platform for promoting hatred and intolerance; and yes, you'd be right in thinking it was a good thing for Israel's government to bar him entry to their country in order to prevent him from using their nation to do that, if that is what the Israeli government had done. I'm in complete agreement with you there, if that is what you meant.

But regrettably it's not Donald Trump whom the Israeli government is denying permission to enter Israel. It's Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar. In doing so the Israeli government is aiding and abetting Donald Trump's efforts to promote hatred and intolerance rather than taking a stand against it.

On the bright side, AIPAC has come out against the Israeli government actions in this incident:

Originally Posted by The Week
The American Israel Public Affairs Committee in a statement on Thursday spoke out against Israel's decision to not allow Reps. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) and Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) to enter for a visit that had been planned for the weekend. This announcement came after President Trump, who has targeted Omar and Tlaib with racist attacks and criticized their support for the BDS movement, tweeted that allowing them in would "show great weakness."

"We disagree with Reps. Omar and Tlaib's support for the anti-Israel and anti-peace BDS movement, along with Rep. Tlaib's calls for a one-state solution," AIPAC wrote. "We also believe every member of Congress should be able to visit and experience our democratic ally Israel firsthand."

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Old 15th August 2019, 06:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's be honest: the "Right of Return" is not going to happen. Makes a much sense as the descedents of all the Germans who were expelled from East Prussia in 1945/46 to demand to return to Poland.
Those people haven't been living in refugee camps since 1946.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I believe in a two state solution,but IMHO the "Right of Return" is pretty much a death sentence for Israel as a sovereign state.
I disagree.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which is what I think you want because that is the current hard left dogma.
As usual, you are wrong about me, as well as who it is following "dogma" here.

Now, Israel and Palestine questions are off topic, but it is the UN resolution stipulating a right to return that is prompting the fascist and fascist adjacent in this thread to dismiss the congress women through the proxy of BDS. I just want it noted how casually these... people... dismiss a UN resolution as well as more than 60 years of people living in horrid conditions in refugee camps, and insist that arguing for the situation to change is "leftist dogma" and no doubt anti-semitic. As such, surely the Israeli fascist is justified in keeping the congress women out of Israel, right?
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:48 PM   #54
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You know I just figured out your definition of fascist is "Anybody who is not as far to the left as I am".
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know I just figured out your definition of fascist is "Anybody who is not as far to the left as I am".
No, my definition of fascist is a someone who follows a fascist ideology. My definition of fascist adjacent is someone who sides with fascists.

There's fascists and fascist adjacent posting in this thread. Bibi Netanyahu is a fascist because of his fascist policies.

Anything else you want to be wrong about? You're on a roll.
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:32 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, my definition of fascist is a someone who follows a fascist ideology. My definition of fascist adjacent is someone who sides with fascists.

There's fascists and fascist adjacent posting in this thread. Bibi Netanyahu is a fascist because of his fascist policies.
You should hang out with the skinheads; sounds like you have a lot in common when it comes to the Jews.
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, my definition of fascist is a someone who follows a fascist ideology. My definition of fascist adjacent is someone who sides with fascists.

There's fascists and fascist adjacent posting in this thread. Bibi Netanyahu is a fascist because of his fascist policies.

Anything else you want to be wrong about? You're on a roll.
What are his fascist policies?
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:42 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You should hang out with the skinheads; sounds like you have a lot in common when it comes to the Jews.
uke2se has not said a word about "the Jews." You should apologize.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:22 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
uke2se has not said a word about "the Jews." You should apologize.
Prepare for the double down.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:05 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You should hang out with the skinheads; sounds like you have a lot in common when it comes to the Jews.
It's so quaint to see mainstream Republicans trying to co-opt Jewish/Israeli support. I'll bet you even let 'em in the main dining room at the club, now.

This is scurrilous, to be honest. Netanyahu is not "The Jews". Netanyahu is Israel if you must go for a metaphor.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
It's amusing watching the BBC's North America editor Jon Sopel, a pure-bred Jew...
Wow, seriously? WTF
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I am going to plead ignorance on this, because I haven't researched it at all. Why the hell do we give them money again?
You didn't really get a serious answer on this one, but the short answer is politics.

A longer answer is that there's a lot of history to it. Back in the Cold War, we gave to allies to keep them on our side and not "their" side. I think at this point it's mostly symbolic. Any politician who would propose reducing the amount would risk being perceived (and labeled) as "Anti-Israel" and that's not something most "mainstream" "establishment" pols are willing to risk.

https://www.mepc.org/node/4789

Quote:
Since 1992, the United States has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States.

Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.5

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds.6 The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.7

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes.
It's weird. Israel is truly a unique country in US foreign policy, and in US politics.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You should hang out with the skinheads; sounds like you have a lot in common when it comes to the Jews.

Pointing out, correctly, that Bibi is a fascist does not impart any judgement on Jews. Bibi is a Jew, and a fascist piece of crap, but he is not all Jews.



Trump, on the other hand, does think Bibi is the Prime Minister of all Jews. There's video evidence of that.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:38 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Wow, seriously? WTF
I'm actually surprised you're the only one having convulsions.

I made a simple observation, and to expand; Sopel is the son of Meyer and Miriam, both Jewish immigrants to the East end of London, and as a proud and observant Jew is practically stereotypical in his political views. I can't be bothered providing you with any biographical reading about him, you can look for it yourself if you want.

But of course for many years now it has been "antisemitic" to even notice that someone is Jewish and say so, let alone to suggest that their self-professed Jewishness might have a bearing on their prejudices.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:39 AM   #65
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Israel Says It Will Grant Visa To Rep. Rashida Tlaib, Reversing Earlier Ban

Quote:
Israel's interior ministry announced Friday that it would grant a visa to Democratic Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan to visit Israel and the Israeli-occupied West Bank as a private citizen, reversing an earlier decision to bar her amid pressure from President Trump.

...

There was no word on whether Israel had also changed its mind about Omar, a Somali-born American. She had been scheduled to arrive on Saturday in Israel, where she and Tlaib planned to tour the West Bank and visit the contested Al Aqsa Mosque in East Jerusalem.


https://www.npr.org/2019/08/16/75167...2fd3fJIoCzk6tA
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:36 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I'm actually surprised you're the only one having convulsions.

I made a simple observation, and to expand; Sopel is the son of Meyer and Miriam, both Jewish immigrants to the East end of London, and as a proud and observant Jew is practically stereotypical in his political views. I can't be bothered providing you with any biographical reading about him, you can look for it yourself if you want.

But of course for many years now it has been "antisemitic" to even notice that someone is Jewish and say so, let alone to suggest that their self-professed Jewishness might have a bearing on their prejudices.
Oh, this'll be uninteresting! Just what are stereotypical Jewish political views? Those of Stephen Miller? Arthur Miller? Myron Cohen? Sheldon Adelson? Saul Alinsky? Saul Bellow? Henry Kissinger? Sammy Davis Junior? Meir Kahane? My mom?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:18 AM   #67
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Can you imagine what would have happened if Obama had demanded a foreign nation bar a Republican Congressperson from that country...
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:26 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Pointing out, correctly, that Bibi is a fascist does not impart any judgement on Jews. Bibi is a Jew, and a fascist piece of crap, but he is not all Jews.



Trump, on the other hand, does think Bibi is the Prime Minister of all Jews. There's video evidence of that.
He seems to be far too conservative and value Israeli institutions to be fascist. To quote Mussolini

Quote:
The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is that a great many BDS supporters are also in the "Death To Israel" crowd.
At this juncture it's hard to tell what ANY group's objectives are, given that they all have visible, extremist elements. Are they representative of the larger whole, or not? It's becoming more and more difficult to have definitive answers to questions like that.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:15 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
At this juncture it's hard to tell what ANY group's objectives are, given that they all have visible, extremist elements. Are they representative of the larger whole, or not? It's becoming more and more difficult to have definitive answers to questions like that.
Which is only a problem "What group does this person belong to?" is more important then just... like looking at what opinions/views they as individual hold.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Israel Says It Will Grant Visa To Rep. Rashida Tlaib, Reversing Earlier Ban
Wait... I’m confused.

Brainster assured me that the reasoning behind Israel’s ban was because it didn’t want to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance.

Does the reversal of the ban mean that now it does want to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance?

Hopefully, Brainster or someone equally knowledgeable and insightful can explain this to me.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:36 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Israel doesn't want to allow its country to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance. Can't say as I blame them.
Exactly what "hatred and intolerance" have Tlaib and Omar advocated?
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:51 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Wait... I’m confused.

Brainster assured me that the reasoning behind Israel’s ban was because it didn’t want to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance.

Does the reversal of the ban mean that now it does want to be used as a platform for hatred and intolerance?

Hopefully, Brainster or someone equally knowledgeable and insightful can explain this to me.
Furthermore, isn't this the part where Brainster suggests that Netanyahu "hang out with the skinheads?"
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:59 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Furthermore, isn't this the part where Brainster suggests that Netanyahu "hang out with the skinheads?"
And I guess now Israel wants its own destruction?

Boy, I wish I was as smart as Brainster about these things so I could could understand better.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:03 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are his fascist policies?
If you aren’t Jewish, you may be a citizen, but this country isn’t for you.

It was a few weeks ago, so do your own google.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I'm actually surprised you're the only one having convulsions.

I made a simple observation, and to expand; Sopel is the son of Meyer and Miriam, both Jewish immigrants to the East end of London, and as a proud and observant Jew is practically stereotypical in his political views. I can't be bothered providing you with any biographical reading about him, you can look for it yourself if you want.

But of course for many years now it has been "antisemitic" to even notice that someone is Jewish and say so, let alone to suggest that their self-professed Jewishness might have a bearing on their prejudices.
You don’t understand why calling a person “a pure-bred Jew” strikes some as odd?
How do you function outside of the deepest south?
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:09 AM   #77
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The story is a bit more complicated than 5 second clickbait articles will give you.

The truth is, this has very little to do with the actual question of whether or not Israel should allow BDS supporters to visit the country.

It has a lot more to do with kissing Trump's behind for publicity sake and Israel's own need for certain publicity stuns since we're in the middle of an election .

I emphasize the Trump because someone mentioned the Trump named settlement... Well.... Let's just say I highly recommend anyone to think that was serious to take a visit there. It's a joke.

It's literally just a sign. There aren't any plans of doing anything there.


The other issue of the story is that it's problematic timing. There was an issue with a previous BDS activist who wanted to visit Israel and was denied, so that you can't go "wait, so a nobody can't come but celebrity congresswoman can?"

If the congresswoman would have wanted to come after November (assuming a government will be formed and we aren't going to a third election) then nobody would give a damn.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If the rest of congress has any integrity, they would immediately announce that no member will visit Israel until this is changed. This is action against the US government, of which these representatives are duly elected members. Congress needs to say, you either let all US Congress people enter, or no one will.


No, seriously? I recall there was a movement on the left to attempt to grab petitions to prevent Trump from visiting Israel when one of the many many sex scandals of his broke out.

I wonder do you also think everyone should have done the same regarding Trump?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sadly, in some people's eyes, that is all too true. They conflate criticism of the State of Israel with antisemitism.
This is absolutely true. But it's also that the opposite is true.
In some people's eyes, Israel can't do anything right.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Incredibly stupid move by Bibi.
He is throwing the Israeli tradition of getting bi partisan support in the US out the window in his kissing the butt of Donnie.
I ain't defending the Israeli Government on this idiocy.
Leaving the last sentence aside (which I agree with)

Israel has *never* gotten bi partisan support.

Clinton admitted that he tried to prevent Netanyahu from getting elected during his first campaign.

Obama and Netanyahu's relationship are atrocious.
And don't get me started on the current state of the democratic party.

But of course it goes the other way around.

Netanyahu has always been a heavy republican supporter. Considering the massive financial support (including a free newspaper) he gets from Sheldon Adelson who is knowingly bank rolling republican campaigns.

His constant flattery to various republicans or republicans appointees from Trump to Haley to whomever aren't exactly a secret.

It has always been the case that American left supported Israel's left and opposed Israel's right and the other way around.

Bi-Partisan support is a joke.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
It would be foolish to state that anyone proposing boycotts against Israel is anti-semetic. I would be making a similar error if I stated that anyone who voted against Obama was a racist.
Funny, you realize people actually said that?

Anyhow, the question isn't if one is allowed or not to boycott a certain country.
One would question why one would boycott a certain country and whether they have double standards in that reasoning or not.

For example, if I say I boycott a certain restaurant that is owned by a certain gay couple because I oppose the fact that they serve meat - that doesn't make me homophobic.

But if I claim to boycott the restaurant because they serve meat, but I don't boycott any other restaurant that serves meat unless they are also owned by gay individuals -

One would raise the question of whether I am homophobic despite my claim of veganism, wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Trump, on the other hand, does think Bibi is the Prime Minister of all Jews. There's video evidence of that.
I find that hilarious considering the guy couldn't raise a coalition and doesn't seem like he'll be able to in a month either.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:13 AM   #78
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
If you aren’t Jewish, you may be a citizen, but this country isn’t for you.

It was a few weeks ago, so do your own google.
Not really fascism. That is just a generic identity nationalism.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
uke2se has not said a word about "the Jews." You should apologize.
Israel is a convenient tool for anti-semites. "I don't hate the Jews, I hate the Israelis. I don't say 'death to the Jews," I say 'death to Israel.' Actually I don't say 'death to Israel', I say "there must be a right of return.'"
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Israel is a convenient tool for anti-semites. "I don't hate the Jews, I hate the Israelis. I don't say 'death to the Jews," I say 'death to Israel.' Actually I don't say 'death to Israel', I say "there must be a right of return.'"
I didn't say "Israel" or "the Israelis" either. I said Bibi Netanyahu.

I'm not expecting an apology, because your kind never apologizes.
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