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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 22nd August 2019, 05:28 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You can point to another case that is as unusual as this?
This case isn't unusual. "Walk into someone house, shot them while they are sitting there doing nothing" wouldn't even be a discussion in any sane society, and wouldn't be one on this board without

A) an epidemic of law enforcement shooting black men

B) An army of people writing pro-innocence fan fiction about this woman.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 05:57 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet if you consider yourself a reasonable person (as most of us do), and can remember making similar errors, it pretty much is a lock for a "reasonable error" or "mistake of fact" if you prefer.
As someone who has made similar errors, I would say that that excuse only gets you to the door, as it were. It doesn't justify blowing someone away even if she were in the correct apartment which, of course, she wasn't.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:07 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet if you consider yourself a reasonable person (as most of us do), and can remember making similar errors, it pretty much is a lock for a "reasonable error" or "mistake of fact" if you prefer.
Guyger being a police officer makes the bar of "reasonable error" much higher, though (at least, IMO). She wasn't an ordinary person responding to an unfamiliar situation; presumably, she had training in how to handle this kind of situation, through things like fully assessing a situation and trying to deescalate before moving to lethal force (AFAIK, pretty common in police training). Even somethings as basic and common as getting a concealed carry permit generally requires education in deescalation measures, as well. She was a trained professional that knew better and should have done better, but completely failed, and should be held accountable.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Guyger being a police officer makes the bar of "reasonable error" much higher, though (at least, IMO). She wasn't an ordinary person responding to an unfamiliar situation; presumably, she had training in how to handle this kind of situation, through things like fully assessing a situation and trying to deescalate before moving to lethal force (AFAIK, pretty common in police training). Even somethings as basic and common as getting a concealed carry permit generally requires education in deescalation measures, as well. She was a trained professional that knew better and should have done better, but completely failed, and should be held accountable.
Had she been on duty, acting in accordance with protocols for entering a residence- I would agree.
I don't expect LEOs to be more than human.

Which part of her training dealt with " how to go home"?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:12 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Had she been on duty, acting in accordance with protocols for entering a residence- I would agree.
I don't expect LEOs to be more than human.

Which part of her training dealt with " how to go home"?
She's not under trial for going home, she's under trial for shooting someone. On duty or not, when facing a confrontation like that, she should have resorted to her training, because it's the proper way to handle that situation. Especially consider that, broadly speaking, off-duty officers are seen as having the same authority as when on duty. Maybe you don't see her negligence as a serious issue, but I do. The same way I don't think it would be acceptable for an off duty EMT to provide bad and potentially dangerous first aid to someone.

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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:32 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Erm, that was precisely my point. Deciding to shoot was unacceptable. And the question of 'was it reasonable for her to mistake which apartment she was in' can not be answered in any way such that it renders the subsequent decision to shoot acceptable.
Sorry I misread your post.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 02:30 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unfortunately that all seems par for the course.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 05:28 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Had she been on duty, acting in accordance with protocols for entering a residence- I would agree.
I don't expect LEOs to be more than human.

Which part of her training dealt with " how to go home"?
Jesus Christ dude.

"Listen nobody specifically trained me on how to not shoot people unarmed people sitting in their own homes!" as an excuse.

Arguing that NOT shooting unarmed people sitting in their own homes doing nothing is expecting people to be "more than human."

This is a farce. A total farce.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:04 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ dude.

"Listen nobody specifically trained me on how to not shoot people unarmed people sitting in their own homes!" as an excuse.

Arguing that NOT shooting unarmed people sitting in their own homes doing nothing is expecting people to be "more than human."

This is a farce. A total farce.
"Use of force consistent with training" is "just following orders" repackaged for non-military police.

It is absurdity at its highest. It's a world where a trained officer has lower standards of behavior when it comes to use of force than just a regular citizen. A citizen who shoots someone has to explain why their use of force was consistent with the law and has no "police training" crutch to lean on.

Training does not override the law. An unlawful killing is still an unlawful killing, even if poorly devised police policies lead to it.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:16 AM   #170
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And besides her being or not being a cop makes no difference.

1. If she was "in the moment" a cop, her training dictates that she IDENTIFIES THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

2. If she was "in the moment" a citizen she still had a legal, moral, and hell logical mandate to IDENTIFY THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

Citizen, cop, MIB secret agent... none of them are allowed to just fire into the dark.

But the racist apologist are demanding this lady remain "Schrodinger's Cop in Schrodinger's Situation" where the apartment is perfectly light enough for her see that there is someone in there but perfectly dark enough for her to not know he is unarmed oh and IT'S NOT HER GODDAMN APARTMENT, and when faced with the "threat" she just reflexively followed her "cop training" except the part about identifying the target and I need to be 100% clear here... that perfect balanced place DOES NOT GODDAMN EXIST.

If it's too dark to identify the target, you don't shoot. If it's light enough to identify the target it's light enough to identify the GODDAMN APARTMENT.

End of discussion. There is no weasel room in there. She either shot a man in his own apartment and SHE KNEW IT or she didn't properly identify the target.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:43 AM   #171
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What he said ^
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:59 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Had she been on duty
Had she been on duty and bulldozed her way into a dark apartment and shot someone that, as Joe said, she couldn't identify then I would expect her ass to be fired. I would also expect that she not have a gun in the near future.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:12 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And besides her being or not being a cop makes no difference.

1. If she was "in the moment" a cop, her training dictates that she IDENTIFIES THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

2. If she was "in the moment" a citizen she still had a legal, moral, and hell logical mandate to IDENTIFY THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

Citizen, cop, MIB secret agent... none of them are allowed to just fire into the dark.

But the racist apologist are demanding this lady remain "Schrodinger's Cop in Schrodinger's Situation" where the apartment is perfectly light enough for her see that there is someone in there but perfectly dark enough for her to not know he is unarmed oh and IT'S NOT HER GODDAMN APARTMENT, and when faced with the "threat" she just reflexively followed her "cop training" except the part about identifying the target and I need to be 100% clear here... that perfect balanced place DOES NOT GODDAMN EXIST.

If it's too dark to identify the target, you don't shoot. If it's light enough to identify the target it's light enough to identify the GODDAMN APARTMENT.

End of discussion. There is no weasel room in there. She either shot a man in his own apartment and SHE KNEW IT or she didn't properly identify the target.
If you live alone, and walk into your darkened apartment with someone coming after you, and they don't stop when you tell them to, it's reasonable to think that you would be allowed to shoot that person.

You're missing the part about mistake of fact. If she legitimately thought she was in her apartment, an intruder in the dark coming for you is a green light to shoot.

There is no requirement to identify a target in the dark if you think you are in danger in your own house.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:14 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If you live alone, and walk into your darkened apartment with someone coming after you, and they don't stop when you tell them to, it's reasonable to think that you would be allowed to shoot that person.

You're missing the part about mistake of fact. If she legitimately thought she was in her apartment, an intruder in the dark coming for you is a green light to shoot.

There is no requirement to identify a target in the dark if you think you are in danger in your own house.
He was sitting at his counter eating a ******* bowl of cereal. He wasn't "coming for" her at all.

Also, she wasn't in her own house and that's her fault. She also had to put in effort to get into that house because the door was closed. What you're saying here is nonsensical.

ETA: Everything she did that day was wrong and it was her fault. She parked on the wrong floor of the ramp, she walked into an apartment that wasn't hers, she didn't pay attention to all of the things that would alert her to it not being her apartment. Everything was her fault. Everything. No exceptions.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:18 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Had she been on duty and bulldozed her way into a dark apartment and shot someone that, as Joe said, she couldn't identify then I would expect her ass to be fired. I would also expect that she not have a gun in the near future.
I don't think anyone has asserted otherwise over thousands of posts on this topic.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:19 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He was sitting at his counter eating a ******* bowl of cereal. He wasn't "coming for" her at all.

Also, she wasn't in her own house and that's her fault. She also had to put in effort to get into that house because the door was closed. What you're saying here is nonsensical.
You might be correct.

We will see where he was shot, and we will see if the door lock was used to prop the door open, when the trial starts.

I still think they might drop the charges, because the DPD is going to get flayed open on overtime. Experts about performance issues due to fatigue, Commanders knowing about this, and City officials telling them to keep doing it.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:21 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He was sitting at his counter eating a ******* bowl of cereal. He wasn't "coming for" her at all.

Also, she wasn't in her own house and that's her fault. She also had to put in effort to get into that house because the door was closed. What you're saying here is nonsensical.

ETA: Everything she did that day was wrong and it was her fault. She parked on the wrong floor of the ramp, she walked into an apartment that wasn't hers, she didn't pay attention to all of the things that would alert her to it not being her apartment. Everything was her fault. Everything. No exceptions.
Was he?
How do you know this well enough to state it as fact?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:24 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Was he?
How do you know this well enough to state it as fact?
True. Jean was a single guy, and photos of the place showed a single guy mess. That cereal bowl could have been there from that morning. Or last week.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:34 AM   #179
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The defense will stipulate that she was in the wrong apartment.

But they will stipulate that at the time of the shooting, the jury should consider that she THOUGHT she was in her apartment.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:35 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You might be correct.

We will see where he was shot, and we will see if the door lock was used to prop the door open, when the trial starts.

I still think they might drop the charges, because the DPD is going to get flayed open on overtime. Experts about performance issues due to fatigue, Commanders knowing about this, and City officials telling them to keep doing it.
Why would he prop the door open? I mean, Occam's Razor is a thing. If the apartment was dark, and she had to turn the lights on, I would bet he was getting ready to go to bed. After all, Officer Sleepy McShootFace was so tired after her 16 hours that she could barely stay awake! Probably the same goes for him? So he propped his door open just to let some people come in at random?

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Was he?
How do you know this well enough to state it as fact?
I don't. The good thing about it is...it doesn't matter either way. I couldn't give a **** what he was doing because it was his god damned house and he can do whatever the **** he wants in it.

I don't care if he was hopping up and down with a loaded AK-47, smoking a joint while eating hallucinogenic mushrooms. It still doesn't give her the right to enter his house, it certainly doesn't give her the right to shoot him, and all in all it really shouldn't matter to the case.

Again, everything here is her fault.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:35 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True. Jean was a single guy, and photos of the place showed a single guy mess. That cereal bowl could have been there from that morning. Or last week.
I'm sure the autopsy would have shown what was in his stomach, so they will know what he was doing. I'm thinking he was eating it on his couch, and when the door opened, got up, set it on the counter, while trying to figure out what was going on
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:37 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If you live alone, and walk into your darkened apartment with someone coming after you, and they don't stop when you tell them to, it's reasonable to think that you would be allowed to shoot that person.
Okay I've lost all patients with this.

IT... WASN'T... HER... APARTMENT.

That's not some trivial little small detail.

Quote:
You're missing the part about mistake of fact. If she legitimately thought she was in her apartment, an intruder in the dark coming for you is a green light to shoot.

There is no requirement to identify a target in the dark if you think you are in danger in your own house.

IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.



IT WASN'T HER HOUSE.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:40 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why would he prop the door open? I mean, Occam's Razor is a thing. If the apartment was dark, and she had to turn the lights on, I would bet he was getting ready to go to bed. After all, Officer Sleepy McShootFace was so tired after her 16 hours that she could barely stay awake! Probably the same goes for him? So he propped his door open just to let some people come in at random?



I don't. The good thing about it is...it doesn't matter either way. I couldn't give a **** what he was doing because it was his god damned house and he can do whatever the **** he wants in it.

I don't care if he was hopping up and down with a loaded AK-47, smoking a joint while eating hallucinogenic mushrooms. It still doesn't give her the right to enter his house, it certainly doesn't give her the right to shoot him, and all in all it really shouldn't matter to the case.

Again, everything here is her fault.
I agree that everything that happened was Guyers fault.

My feeling ( based upon what has been made public ) is that she made a mistake that cost Jean his life, and is most definitely civilly liable.
I am not convinced her actions were criminal (although I would like them to be)
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:42 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I'm sure the autopsy would have shown what was in his stomach, so they will know what he was doing. I'm thinking he was eating it on his couch, and when the door opened, got up, set it on the counter, while trying to figure out what was going on
Is it legal to shoot black people sitting in their own home when they aren't eating cereal?

What differences does it make?

Stop making excuses.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:44 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True. Jean was a single guy, and photos of the place showed a single guy mess. That cereal bowl could have been there from that morning. Or last week.
Right? The only bowl not in the sink, where the myriad of other dishes are located, but it could have been there for God knows how long!
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:47 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Right? The only bowl not in the sink, where the myriad of other dishes are located, but it could have been there for God knows how long!
You see. That is a good example of thinking critically.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:47 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree that everything that happened was Guyers fault.

My feeling ( based upon what has been made public ) is that she made a mistake that cost Jean his life, and is most definitely civilly liable.
I am not convinced her actions were criminal (although I would like them to be)
Then you have absolutely no idea how the law works, and have never been involved with it because you are WAY off kilter on this one.

Entering someone else's apartment isn't "a mistake". It's negligent by the very literal definition of that word.

The apartment numbers are lit up, she parked on the wrong floor, she went into a place that wasn't hers when the door was closed, she didn't do any due diligence and with no regard started shooting at someone.

Every. *******. Thing. She. Did. Was. Wrong.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 08:52 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Then you have absolutely no idea how the law works, and have never been involved with it because you are WAY off kilter on this one.

Entering someone else's apartment isn't "a mistake". It's negligent by the very literal definition of that word.

The apartment numbers are lit up, she parked on the wrong floor, she went into a place that wasn't hers when the door was closed, she didn't do any due diligence and with no regard started shooting at someone.

Every. *******. Thing. She. Did. Was. Wrong.
She did not IMO "fail to excercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would excercise in like circumstances" (Webster definition of Negligence).

Are the numbers really lit up?
Is there a "wrong" floor to park on?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:00 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
She did not IMO "fail to excercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would excercise in like circumstances" (Webster definition of Negligence).
The law:

Quote:
Negligent homicide is a much lower intent crime and is used as a charge when one person causes the death of another through criminal negligence. The charge does not involve premeditation, but focuses on what the defendant should have known and the risks associated with what he did know.
Things people should ******* know -----> Where they live LoL. I mean, seriously?

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are the numbers really lit up?
Yes, they are.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is there a "wrong" floor to park on?
By her own admission? Yes. She says, "I parked on the wrong floor."

So, yeah.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:01 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Right? The only bowl not in the sink, where the myriad of other dishes are located, but it could have been there for God knows how long!
Was it the only bowl not in the sink? I didn't catch the inventory on that.

I mean, it doesn't matter one way or the other. I see sidebars like that as a good test of objectivity. Are we projecting the most innocent activities we can on Jean, with confirmation bias, or looking levely?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:02 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The defense will stipulate that she was in the wrong apartment.

But they will stipulate that at the time of the shooting, the jury should consider that she THOUGHT she was in her apartment.
Maybe she THOUGHT she was in Berlin, too. Who cares what she thought? The question is whether that THOUGHT was reasonable. I contend that it wasn't.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:03 AM   #192
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Okay I've asked this of the apologist a dozen times and haven't got an answer.

WHAT IS A CRIME IN YOUR WORLD?

What couldn't be countered with "LOL I though the situation was different so you have to say I'm innocent."
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:03 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay I've lost all patients with this.
You should pay more attention to those under your care.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:04 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are we projecting the most innocent activities we can on Jean, with confirmation bias, or looking levely?
Jean is not on trial, and his right to be present in his own home is not in question. If he had, on Guyger forcing his door open, taken a gun and emptied the magazine into her chest, he would not be guilty of a crime under Texas law (though a biased jury might find him guilty of one). It matters not one jot how innocent his activities were; Guyger had no reasonable cause to break into his apartment and shoot him dead.

Dave
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:05 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Was it the only bowl not in the sink? I didn't catch the inventory on that.
CNN has a video of the crime scene where you can see the entire living room, and a walk through of the apartment. So yes, it's the only bowl not in the sink.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mean, it doesn't matter one way or the other. I see sidebars like that as a good test of objectivity. Are we projecting the most innocent activities we can on Jean, with confirmation bias, or looking levely?
Can you show that I have confirmation bias or that I am not looking levely (whatever the hell that word means)?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:11 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Jean is not on trial, and his right to be present in his own home is not in question. If he had, on Guyger forcing his door open, taken a gun and emptied the magazine into her chest, he would not be guilty of a crime under Texas law (though a biased jury might find him guilty of one). It matters not one jot how innocent his activities were; Guyger had no reasonable cause to break into his apartment and shoot him dead.

Dave
...agreed, as I have argued on many pages. Point in there somewhere?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:14 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...agreed, as I have argued on many pages. Point in there somewhere?
The point is if you agree what's with the apologetics?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:15 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...agreed, as I have argued on many pages. Point in there somewhere?
The point is, why are you asking how Jean's activities are being considered when it's of no relevance?

Dave

ETA: Think I see what you mean; are people betraying their anti-Guyger bias by showing pro-Jean bias. Still, hard to see how bias can make Guyger's actions much worse than they were. Any verdict short of negligent homicide would be a travesty.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:19 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
CNN has a video of the crime scene where you can see the entire living room, and a walk through of the apartment. So yes, it's the only bowl not in the sink.



Can you show that I have confirmation bias or that I am not looking levely (whatever the hell that word means)?
Levely? Really?

If you say that he was sitting at the counter eating cereal and did not run at her, you are stating as fact sever things at once that are not on the record. Was he not said to have been watching football earlier? If he was sitting at the counter, he would seemed to have moved quite a bit to where his body lay. I think it is just as likely he was watching the game and jumped up at the ruckus at his door. I sure would have. But it sounds more Dewey-eyed to claim he was just eating his bweakfast and was a sitting duck.

Not calling you to the carpet, man. Just noticing when details are cherry picked for effect.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:23 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The point is, why are you asking how Jean's activities are being considered when it's of no relevance?

Dave

ETA: Think I see what you mean; are people betraying their anti-Guyger bias by showing pro-Jean bias. Still, hard to see how bias can make Guyger's actions much worse than they were. Any verdict short of negligent homicide would be a travesty.
Your eta: you got it. I think she should be up on murder 2., plain and simple. But every torqued detail, every fleshed out narrative, every spun representation, is a step towards pitchforks and nooses instead of reason.
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