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Tags defamation cases , lawsuits , media criticism , Nathan Phillips , Nick Sandmann , protest incidents , racism charges

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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:20 PM   #2321
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I see.

If some kids wear a red hat with the words ďMake America Great AgainĒ they get no quarter; they are quite obviously racist white supremacist brats. Even though they were basically just standing there -certainly not using any offensive terms.

But if you use the words you used itís OK because you are liberal and you are just paraphrasing some hypothetical racists. Even though those words are offensive and racist in and of themselves,

As I said, itís interesting.
Referring to other people's racism isn't racism.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:24 PM   #2322
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm calling voting for Trump racist regardless of the motivation.
Which makes your position ridiculous.
Quote:
Even if I'm being unfair (which I'm not) why do you care? They're just Trump supporters.
Dehumanizing your opponents is exactly what racists do. Congrats!
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:27 PM   #2323
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Referring to other people's racism isn't racism.
What other people? No one in this thread used those terms.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:30 PM   #2324
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm calling voting for Trump racist regardless of the motivation. Even if I'm being unfair (which I'm not) why do you care? They're just Trump supporters.
When you say that voting for Trump is racist you are explicitly talking about the motivation for the vote, and ascribing it to racism. To then say that you call it racism regardless of the motivation is simply to admit that you aren't interested in the truth of your statement.

You then go on to say that we shouldn't care because they are just Trump supporters. And why shouldn't we care about whether or not the disparaging things we say about Trump supporters are true? Well, because they're racist...

Go to 10.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:31 PM   #2325
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What other people? No one in this thread used those terms.
There are people in the world who haven't posted in this thread.

ETA I've highlighted the people whose racism was being referred to in the quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post

Your bog variety bigot is a simple minded sort and first falls back on the visual cues. Skin color/hue is one of them. If they want to hate on towel heads or beaners or spicks who don't have physical cues, they merely have to do a little book-learning to find out that they're different and thus worthy of hatred.

"See, we hate everyone who's not us, not just the ones we can spot from visual cues" is not a stellar argument. To yer average bigot, the skin color is just a quick-think bonus. Don't have to figure nothing out 'cuz they're darker.

If you want to argue that such people are very uncommon, that's fine. But he was certainly referring to them, regardless of whether or not he's right about how common they are.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 23rd August 2019 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:39 PM   #2326
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
There are people in the world who haven't posted in this thread.
Ok, so was he quoting one of those people? No? Then that doesnít help us much, does it?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 10:44 PM   #2327
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ok, so was he quoting one of those people? No? Then that doesnít help us much, does it?
He was referring to their opinions. What do you think he was doing in the quote?
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Old 25th August 2019, 04:35 AM   #2328
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course you are. After all, why do motives even matter? It's all about which side you're on.
Yes, at the moment, you're either on the country's side or you're not. Among other things, not being on the country's side means you're for someone who in addition to being a traitor is also a racist. That makes his supporters racists as well.
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Old 25th August 2019, 04:37 AM   #2329
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
When you say that voting for Trump is racist you are explicitly talking about the motivation for the vote, and ascribing it to racism. To then say that you call it racism regardless of the motivation is simply to admit that you aren't interested in the truth of your statement.

You then go on to say that we shouldn't care because they are just Trump supporters. And why shouldn't we care about whether or not the disparaging things we say about Trump supporters are true? Well, because they're racist...

Go to 10.
You can't support a racist for president because he's good for your 401K and not be racist yourself.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #2330
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You can't support a racist for president because he's good for your 401K and not be racist yourself.
Is this ironic or is English your second language?
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:58 AM   #2331
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm calling voting for Trump racist regardless of the motivation.
Then by the same token you can be called a racist as well.

Quote:
Even if I'm being unfair (which I'm not)
Calling someone by a word that is entirely related to their motivation while ignoring their motivation absolutely is unfair.

Quote:
why do you care?
Why do I care about accuracy and reality? Oh, I don't know...

Quote:
They're just Trump supporters.
Why stop there? If you're willing to ditch reality and human decency when it applies to your political foes, why not go out and shoot them in the head?

I suppose since I hate Hitler and his ilk I could say that the man was an alien from Saturn. After all, factual accuracy is so passť.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:00 AM   #2332
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes, at the moment, you're either on the country's side or you're not. Among other things, not being on the country's side means you're for someone who in addition to being a traitor is also a racist. That makes his supporters racists as well.
If you vote for someone who is a vegetarian, that makes you a vegetarian as well!

Quote:
You can't support a racist for president because he's good for your 401K and not be racist yourself.
Of course you can, since your taxes HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:54 AM   #2333
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes, at the moment, you're either on the country's side or you're not. Among other things, not being on the country's side means you're for someone who in addition to being a traitor is also a racist. That makes his supporters racists as well.
I'm pretty sure you don't speak for "the country". And what exactly do you imagine this "country's side" even is, if the people in that country are split on the issue roughly 50/50?
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:02 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm pretty sure you don't speak for "the country". And what exactly do you imagine this "country's side" even is, if the people in that country are split on the issue roughly 50/50?
What's good for the country is what I want. What's bad for the country is what others want.
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Old 28th August 2019, 03:52 PM   #2335
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm pretty sure you don't speak for "the country". And what exactly do you imagine this "country's side" even is, if the people in that country are split on the issue roughly 50/50?
We aren't 50/50 split on this. Loyal Americans in polls outnumber disloyal Americans. Trump's approval rating is not at 50 percent and you know full well that loyal Americans outnumber Trump supporters in all reputable, scientific polls. I wish the disapproval numbers are higher but it is what it is.
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Old 29th August 2019, 12:32 AM   #2336
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You can't support a racist for president because he's good for your 401K and not be racist yourself.

Did you vote for Hillary? If so that makes you a lying bitch with a big ass.
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Old 30th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
When you say that voting for Trump is racist you are explicitly talking about the motivation for the vote, and ascribing it to racism. To then say that you call it racism regardless of the motivation is simply to admit that you aren't interested in the truth of your statement.
Not necessarily. Something can be racist if its effect is to promote racism. Motivation doesn't need to enter into it.

For example, when my sister announced her engagement to someone who wasn't white, my grandmother opposed the marriage and cried for days over it. She wasn't motivated by hatred of non-white people, her concern was for how people would treat my sister and her children. The effect is still racist even though her motivation wasn't.

In this case if someone acknowledges Trump's racism but votes for him because he's going to stack a Supreme Court to overturn Roe V Wade (or whatever reason) they're essentially their issue, whatever it may be, is more important to them than racism.
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Old 30th August 2019, 11:23 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Something can be racist if its effect is to promote racism. Motivation doesn't need to enter into it.
Only if you define racism as something else entirely. Why would you do that rather than use a more correct term?
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Old 30th August 2019, 11:31 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Only if you define racism as something else entirely. Why would you do that rather than use a more correct term?
Uhm, I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one to declare that which promotes racism is itself racist.

I know it adds a layer of complexity that some people won't be comfortable with, but it is a complex issue, isn't it?
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Old 30th August 2019, 11:34 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Uhm, I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one to declare that which promotes racism is itself racist.
No, and you're not the only one who's wrong about this. Words mean things, and the expansion of this particular one into near-meaninglessness is counter-productive.

Quote:
I know it adds a layer of complexity that some people won't be comfortable with, but it is a complex issue, isn't it?
It really isn't.

How indirect does the effect need to be for the cause to stop being racist? If I buy an appartment building and demolish it to build a train station, and as a result down the line fewer locals can find places to live, and they happen to be black, was my purchase racist? If not, what's the cut-off?

That's why the actual definition is useful and clear: if you generall think another 'race' is inferior or worthy of contemp or violence, then you're a racist. Racism is not the same as bias, and it's not the same as negative effects on specific groups.
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Old 30th August 2019, 02:26 PM   #2341
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, and you're not the only one who's wrong about this. Words mean things, and the expansion of this particular one into near-meaninglessness is counter-productive.



It really isn't.

How indirect does the effect need to be for the cause to stop being racist? If I buy an appartment building and demolish it to build a train station, and as a result down the line fewer locals can find places to live, and they happen to be black, was my purchase racist? If not, what's the cut-off?

That's why the actual definition is useful and clear: if you generall think another 'race' is inferior or worthy of contemp or violence, then you're a racist. Racism is not the same as bias, and it's not the same as negative effects on specific groups.
Your argument boils down to, "It's not complex because if you use any criteria other than the one I want, it becomes too complex. Therefore we have to use the criteria I like."
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Old 1st September 2019, 01:06 PM   #2342
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Did you vote for Hillary? If so that makes you a lying bitch with a big ass.
At least I'm still a patriotic, loyal American, unlike some dirty Trump supporter.
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Old 1st September 2019, 02:36 PM   #2343
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
At least I'm still a patriotic, loyal American, unlike some dirty Trump supporter.

I'm sure you think you are as do the conservatives who voted for Trump. I personally see no connection between Hillary and patriotism. Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad.

Quote:
I'm calling voting for Trump racist regardless of the motivation. Even if I'm being unfair (which I'm not) why do you care? They're just Trump supporters.

And that makes about as much sense as my "fat ass" comment. Nobody should care what you or I think, this is a skeptics site.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 01:51 AM   #2344
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Oh, I thought you realized that this is the politics section.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 02:19 AM   #2345
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Not necessarily. Something can be racist if its effect is to promote racism. Motivation doesn't need to enter into it.
I think it makes much more sense to say that things that are racist are racist and things that promote racism... promote racism.


Quote:
For example, when my sister announced her engagement to someone who wasn't white, my grandmother opposed the marriage and cried for days over it. She wasn't motivated by hatred of non-white people, her concern was for how people would treat my sister and her children. The effect is still racist even though her motivation wasn't.
That's not racism. It may be that she should be more concerned with defeating the problem of racism than with the potential effects on the wellbeing of her child (that you say she was worried about), but even that's not straightforward to me.

[quote[In this case if someone acknowledges Trump's racism but votes for him because he's going to stack a Supreme Court to overturn Roe V Wade (or whatever reason) they're essentially their issue, whatever it may be, is more important to them than racism.[/quote]

Yes. But that doesn't make them racist. I think racism is a very important concern. But if, for instance, we had two candidates, one who was as racist as Trump and another who wanted to start a nuclear war, I'd vote for the racist, because avoiding nuclear war is more important to me than preventing racism.

You might claim that those who care more about their issue than about racism are selfish, but racism is a different thing.

It's possible that they'd be less selfish if the people who stood to be harmed weren't people of colour, but were instead white, in which case I'd say that is racism, given that they'd be attributing more worth the people of one race than another based only on that quality (if someone values their friends or family members more than strangers, that's not racism).
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Old 2nd September 2019, 02:47 AM   #2346
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yes. But that doesn't make them racist. I think racism is a very important concern. But if, for instance, we had two candidates, one who was as racist as Trump and another who wanted to start a nuclear war, I'd vote for the racist, because avoiding nuclear war is more important to me than preventing racism.
Not everyone agrees with you. There are people in the world who think racism is worse than nuclear annihilation. If you think I'm joking you can listen for yourself.

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Old 2nd September 2019, 06:36 PM   #2347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgidm86
Did you vote for Hillary? If so that makes you a lying bitch with a big ass.
Voting for Trump doesn't make you an adulterous, pathological lying narcissist with a bad comb over and a fake tan. It just makes you gullible and none too bright.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #2348
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
... Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad.
Can you direct me to those posts, please?
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:18 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Your argument boils down to, "It's not complex because if you use any criteria other than the one I want, it becomes too complex. Therefore we have to use the criteria I like."
How about you address the argument as I've made it, rather than some fantasy version you've made up?

The word 'racism' is not about consequences, or unconscious bias, but about how one views other ethnic groups.

This has nothing to do with complexity. It's about your use of the word being wrong.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:50 AM   #2350
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Can you direct me to those posts, please?

It wasn't here, but I've seen people elsewhere who view patriotism and jingoism as indistinguishable and inseparable. I don't agree with them, but the opinion is out there.
But as you said, the post said "here".
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How about you address the argument as I've made it, rather than some fantasy version you've made up?

The word 'racism' is not about consequences, or unconscious bias, but about how one views other ethnic groups.

This has nothing to do with complexity. It's about your use of the word being wrong.
I agree. I'd also like to add (I think you'll agree), that the complexities of the issue are certainly relevant and meaningful, but folding them into the word "racism" actually makes the complexities less rather than more clear.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:16 AM   #2352
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I agree. I'd also like to add (I think you'll agree), that the complexities of the issue are certainly relevant and meaningful, but folding them into the word "racism" actually makes the complexities less rather than more clear.
Precisely.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:33 PM   #2353
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Hey, you do you.

If there's Trump supporters who personally aren't racist, at the very least they feel supporting unabashed racism is an acceptable price for getting whatever it is they do want out of him; so honestly "racist, not-racist" becomes more like splitting hairs at this juncture.

I can no longer accept as credible or even reasonable the hypothesis that some Trump supporters are genuinely unaware that he champions racist policies and openly courts the approval of white supremacists.
Ready for a shock?

...

I can totally buy the idea that there are some people that simply don't, or can't, accept the obvious fact that Dolt 45 is plainly a white supremacist.

The reasoning is actually simple. "Well, I know that being a racist is the worst thing you can be. Trump thinks what I think. And if Trump's a white supremacist, then so am I, and that makes me a racist, the worst thing a person can be. But that's crazy! I'm not evil, so I'm not racist, so neither is Trump!"

Simple. Deeply fallacious at every step, but simple.

A large part of this, again, comes down to the fact that many white people simply can't recognize racism, because they aren't taught what it is. They and their families simply don't need to know, so they never really learned anything beyond burning crosses, fire hoses, and "Segregation forever!". White conservatives and reactionaries, in particular, tend to sneer at "Identity Politics" (even as they wallow in it) or "Ethnic Studies", so they're shocked when black people are perfectly fine with Obama having a different accent in front of a black audience than in front of Congress (I've been accused of inventing the term "code-switching" multiple times!). They try to shoehorn other people's theory into their misguided concepts, which is how they get gibberish like the "intersectional pyramid", which has nothing to do with the actual theory of intersectionality.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:36 PM   #2354
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I agree. I'd also like to add (I think you'll agree), that the complexities of the issue are certainly relevant and meaningful, but folding them into the word "racism" actually makes the complexities less rather than more clear.
I'm going to go right ahead and disagree. "subconscious bias" is leagues from "white nationalist", but the idea that the former is not a form of racism is false. Yes, the person with such a bias does, in the end, believe that one "race" is somehow superior to the other, and they will act on it, in ways that are generally more damaging than an idiot like Richard Spencer, precisely because the person does not recognize their own underlying beliefs.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:30 AM   #2355
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm sure you think you are as do the conservatives who voted for Trump. I personally see no connection between Hillary and patriotism. Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad.









And that makes about as much sense as my "fat ass" comment. Nobody should care what you or I think, this is a skeptics site.
Could you provide evidence for your claim "Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad. "?
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #2356
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you vote for someone who is a vegetarian, that makes you a vegetarian as well!



Of course you can, since your taxes HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
That may be the most naive thing I've ever read. Grow up.
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Old 7th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #2357
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Nobody should care what you or I think, this is a skeptics site.

Skeptics should absolutely care what others think, at least when a significant portion of them get conned by the right wing propaganda machine or similar nonsense. That level of gullibility is dangerous for a nation and must be addressed in some fashion.
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Old 7th September 2019, 01:23 PM   #2358
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Could you provide evidence for your claim "Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad. "?

I have time for two examples.

One...

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Patriotism in the US is 99% stupid:instead of actually doing something for your country, you attack whoever you think doesn't praise it enough.
And Bonespurs is the archetype of this phenomenon.

Two...not so bad...

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Here's some color photos from Nazi Germany. Note the prominent display of flags everywhere.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/col...-nazi-germany/

As a liberal, I don't "sneer" at excessive patriotism, it just scares me. I fully expect one of these days for there to be a military parade, with il Duce- er, Trump- looking on, stuffed in a bemedaled military uniform.

I do, however, sneer at his idiot supporters, which is about 40% of the country these days.

If you require more let me know, these are both from the same thread. I'm really not inclined to look any harder because this will fall on deaf ears anyways and it really isn't that important to me.

But there ya go - evidence..
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Old 7th September 2019, 03:08 PM   #2359
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Ready for a shock?



...



I can totally buy the idea that there are some people that simply don't, or can't, accept the obvious fact that Dolt 45 is plainly a white supremacist.



The reasoning is actually simple. "Well, I know that being a racist is the worst thing you can be. Trump thinks what I think. And if Trump's a white supremacist, then so am I, and that makes me a racist, the worst thing a person can be. But that's crazy! I'm not evil, so I'm not racist, so neither is Trump!"



Simple. Deeply fallacious at every step, but simple.
Yes, what you just said is deeply fallacious.

I donít think Trump is a white supremacist. My reasoning does not fall anywhere near along the lines youíve laughably outlined above. Trump is a 73 year old product of the culture and the time period he was raised in. You can say heís racist and I wonít argue with you. But to say heís a white supremacist is to say that heís espoused a certain world-view that thereís no evidence that he actually has.



Quote:
A large part of this, again, comes down to the fact that many white people simply can't recognize racism, because they aren't taught what it is. They and their families simply don't need to know, so they never really learned anything beyond burning crosses, fire hoses, and "Segregation forever!".
Iím sure this is true but not universally. I see no need to tar all white people with the same brush.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:26 PM   #2360
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No, nothing racist about a vote for Trump.
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File Type: jpg Trump's True Colors.jpg (57.3 KB, 11 views)
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