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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 24th August 2019, 11:38 AM   #281
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Jesus. Obviously I hadn't made this post in the circumstance I had mentioned. Also, rumor has it they allowed her to clean up her social media during this entire thing as well. So you never really know, do you?



My argument is negligence, so her intent doesn't matter to me.
Yes, but will the jury see the negligence as a crime? Or will they pass the buck and decide it should be handled in a civil court? I think the posters with whom you are discussing this with are trying to show how the jurors might see it.


Somebody (in another thread) linked a story to The Atlantic and this story was in the side bar.

https://www.theatlantic.com/video/in...1/water-slide/

Long story short, a kid was decapitated on a water slide and the owners were charged with "aggravated battery, aggravated endangerment of a child, interference with law enforcement, involuntary manslaughter, and second-degree murder". In Feb. of this year those charges were dropped.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/cr...-been-dropped/

Of course, this is a corporation (not an individual) charged with murder so it was always going to be a tough sell but the defense in the Guyger trial will probably be some version of should an accident be a crime?
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Old 24th August 2019, 01:59 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
<snip>

Of course, this is a corporation (not an individual) charged with murder so it was always going to be a tough sell but the defense in the Guyger trial will probably be some version of should an accident be a crime?

She didn't fire her gun ... twice ... by accident.
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Old 24th August 2019, 02:25 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
She didn't fire her gun ... twice ... by accident.
Indeed. I think she should do time and I'm still cautiously optimistic about my prediction from the old thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12524944
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Old 24th August 2019, 02:28 PM   #284
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I'm sorry but I simply believe that there is no ethical defense or excuse on Earth for anyone illegally entering the apartment of an innocent strangeR and shooting them dead. No matter how tired, afraid, or disoriented the shooter may have been. That the shooter was a trained LEO just makes it more egregious. Perhaps the law, or its application by a jury, may decide differently but if so there is something horridly wrong with our legal system. If some excuse is allowed and this is considered understandable behavior for a cop in our society, then how are any of us safe?
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Old 24th August 2019, 03:03 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I'm sorry but I simply believe that there is no ethical defense or excuse on Earth for anyone illegally entering the apartment of an innocent strangeR and shooting them dead. No matter how tired, afraid, or disoriented the shooter may have been. That the shooter was a trained LEO just makes it more egregious. Perhaps the law, or its application by a jury, may decide differently but if so there is something horridly wrong with our legal system. If some excuse is allowed and this is considered understandable behavior for a cop in our society, then how are any of us safe?
We're not. Remember the guy who was murdered because a malignant worm on the Internet "swatted" someone and gave the wrong address? The swatter was punished but the police officer got off scot-free. How about the baby burned when a police officer blind-tossed a flash bang grenade into a living room?

Given how often cops get away with the most egregious actions none of us should consider ourselves safe from police violence, people of color least of all.
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Old 24th August 2019, 03:24 PM   #286
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Darat just stay awake for 16 hours and 1 minute then ban eveyone defending this check in this thread. Problem solved and they can't complain.
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Old 24th August 2019, 05:25 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Darat just stay awake for 16 hours and 1 minute then ban eveyone defending this check in this thread. Problem solved and they can't complain.
Oh, well... was gonna post this link earlier but this is as good as any to place it...

This link http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...ving-laws.aspx describes laws that various state governments are trying to pass and/or considering regarding what they term "drowsy driving" as a serious problem which should be more harshly punished. I don't agree, of course (that more laws and harsher punishment will help alleviate the problem but that's irrelevant here), but still, it goes to show that being fatigued while driving (as at least one person here uses as a possible mitigating circumstance) does cause huge numbers of accidents and some deaths.

The reason I'm posting this now is the 16 hour part; with these proposed drowsy driving laws they all pretty much agree on 24 hours as the time-factor that's necessary to trigger these punishments -- such as treating a drowsy driver who kills someone as a felony. A relatively low-level felony, but more than a misdemeanor.

I've seen ad campaigns directly addressing driving while drowsy, even and studies have shown that 20-24 hours without sleep is the equivalent BAC of 0.08 - 0.10 (legal limit in the US is 0.08 BAC).

Anyway, I don't recall off-hand but this 16-hour number the cop claimed... is that her saying being awake for 16 hours or a 16 hour shift (which would include at least another hour awake)?

Still, that would technically be the equivalent of around a BAC of 0.04 or therabouts; still impaired, in other words.

The fatigue problem is endemic in the medical field and commercial pilots also have strict rules and regs about adequate rest between and during flights. Why not cops?

From the brief reading I've done, it doesn't seem like there are any federal laws governing sleep or rest schedules for doctors; even so, fatigue can be and is used as evidence in some medical malpractice suits and I think fatigue has been used as evidence in some criminal cases which a doctor has made a mistake that caused or contributed toward a patient's death.

So, again... I mean, I get it: the macho image of cops who are expected to handle everything; a woman trying to fit in to a traditionally male role; a feeling of "my home has been violated!"; a sudden jolt of adrenaline after a long day of stress and anxiety to top it all off...

My cynical side says that she'll walk with little to no punishment other than being fired; in fact, she'll probably fight it if she skates on the charges or at least, go into another department elsewhere.

My non-cynical faith-in-humanity side says she'll rightfully do decent time in jail and my actual hope is that, due to the lousy system in which we currently live, she gets maximum time as a warning to other cops that this **** is just. not. acceptable.

Here endeth the sermon.
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Old 24th August 2019, 06:58 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Darat just stay awake for 16 hours and 1 minute then ban eveyone defending this check in this thread. Problem solved and they can't complain.
I see what you did there.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:48 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Police training should* be about ensuring people don't act in instinctive and unconscious ways. So if she was acting as a police officer I'd say there is even less excuse for the "fast reaction" as you describe it.

(*Granted that some police training in the states is bad.)
I agree. But then there's the difference between what the training delivers and what the trainee does with the information. One thing I don't believe has been discussed or disclosed is how she handled similar situations in the past. In other police shootings it has sometimes come to light that the officer involved has had a history of being trigger happy.
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:55 AM   #290
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She is going to be trying to use fatigue as part of her defence https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...ctics-11735279
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:55 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She is going to be trying to use fatigue as part of her defence https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...ctics-11735279

I can clarify that a little more. If they're having Czeisler testify, it's very likely they're not going to be talking just about how many hours she was awake, but her work and rest-activity schedules for the previous week or more, and how that could have put her circadian rhythms awry.

Let's assume you have typical work hours. You get up at 6 AM; 16 hours later it's 10 PM. You might be getting sleepy by then but you won't be impaired. But imagine that you'd been working the night shift for the previous two weeks, and just changed over the previous day. If your circadian rhythms had adjusted to that, even if you'd had a day or two off before the change-over, getting up at 6 AM to work a day shift would still be like sleeping in until 2 PM (probably very restless sleep), and sixteen hours later when it's 10 PM your brain is performing as if it's 4 AM.

That wouldn't be a very typical case, though. What's more typical is for cops to work a rotating shift where every week, they change to a shift eight hours earlier than the one before. Circadian rhythms adjust more slowly to schedule changes in that direction (which is why it's easier to sleep in on weekends, and harder to get up early Monday morning after sleeping in on a weekend). For most people it takes more than a week to adjust. So the effect of that kind of shift schedule is to have circadian rhythms completely and perpetually out of synch with your rest-activity cycle. On any given day you might be getting up when your body thinks it's midnight, and trying to get to sleep when your body thinks it's four in the afternoon.

There is research that links these phenomena to performance deficits, episodes of attention lapses, other altered mental states, industrial accidents, and prevalence of chronic disease and shortened life spans for the affected workers. Czeisler regards poor work scheduling (designed for cost savings without regard for human circadian physiology) as a public health issue. I doubt he's in it because he personally thinks Guyger shouldn't bear any blame, nor to make a few quick bucks. His cause, for decades, has been calling attention to the bad consequences of bad work schedules.

I'm not claiming any of this exonerates Guyger. Just that there's likely going to be more to the fatigue defense argument than "awake for a whole 16 hours OMG."

And to let people know that in most places in the U.S., the cop who pulls you over is likely on his sixth cup of coffee because he couldn't get to sleep for more than two hours the night before. Adjust your expectations for the encounter accordingly.
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:32 AM   #292
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Juries tend to zone out on sciencey stuff.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:23 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It is if you, say, run over a kid because you weren't paying attention to your driving. And you can go to prison for it.
Absolutely.
Operating a motor vehicle has a certain degree of attention built in as a kind of "implied consent".
Walking to my front door, not so much.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:44 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Absolutely.

Operating a motor vehicle has a certain degree of attention built in as a kind of "implied consent".

Walking to my front door, not so much.
And carrying a loaded firearm doesn't?
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:52 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I can clarify that a little more. If they're having Czeisler testify, it's very likely they're not going to be talking just about how many hours she was awake, but her work and rest-activity schedules for the previous week or more, and how that could have put her circadian rhythms awry.

Let's assume you have typical work hours. You get up at 6 AM; 16 hours later it's 10 PM. You might be getting sleepy by then but you won't be impaired. But imagine that you'd been working the night shift for the previous two weeks, and just changed over the previous day. If your circadian rhythms had adjusted to that, even if you'd had a day or two off before the change-over, getting up at 6 AM to work a day shift would still be like sleeping in until 2 PM (probably very restless sleep), and sixteen hours later when it's 10 PM your brain is performing as if it's 4 AM.

That wouldn't be a very typical case, though. What's more typical is for cops to work a rotating shift where every week, they change to a shift eight hours earlier than the one before. Circadian rhythms adjust more slowly to schedule changes in that direction (which is why it's easier to sleep in on weekends, and harder to get up early Monday morning after sleeping in on a weekend). For most people it takes more than a week to adjust. So the effect of that kind of shift schedule is to have circadian rhythms completely and perpetually out of synch with your rest-activity cycle. On any given day you might be getting up when your body thinks it's midnight, and trying to get to sleep when your body thinks it's four in the afternoon.

There is research that links these phenomena to performance deficits, episodes of attention lapses, other altered mental states, industrial accidents, and prevalence of chronic disease and shortened life spans for the affected workers. Czeisler regards poor work scheduling (designed for cost savings without regard for human circadian physiology) as a public health issue. I doubt he's in it because he personally thinks Guyger shouldn't bear any blame, nor to make a few quick bucks. His cause, for decades, has been calling attention to the bad consequences of bad work schedules.

I'm not claiming any of this exonerates Guyger. Just that there's likely going to be more to the fatigue defense argument than "awake for a whole 16 hours OMG."

And to let people know that in most places in the U.S., the cop who pulls you over is likely on his sixth cup of coffee because he couldn't get to sleep for more than two hours the night before. Adjust your expectations for the encounter accordingly.
They'll have to be careful during jury selection, then. Any mom or dad on the jury will be howling with laughter at what the defense tries to frame as fatigue or sleep disruption.
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #296
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An early assessment by a conservative columnist in the National Review:

Quote:
First, police sources are reportedly indicating that Guyger may actually try to raise the fact that Jean didnít obey her commands as a defense. Itís not a defense. The moment she opened the door to an apartment that wasnít her own, she wasnít operating as a police officer clothed with the authority of the law. She was instead a criminal. She was breaking into another personís home. She was an armed home invader, and the person clothed with the authority of law to defend himself was Botham Shem Jean.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...rtial-justice/
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:55 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I agree. But then there's the difference between what the training delivers and what the trainee does with the information. One thing I don't believe has been discussed or disclosed is how she handled similar situations in the past. In other police shootings it has sometimes come to light that the officer involved has had a history of being trigger happy.

Since you asked:
Quote:
Dallas police shot a man who wrestled away an officer's Taser during a struggle in Pleasant Grove on Friday morning, police said.
.....
Officer Amber Guyger, who shot the suspect, was placed on restricted duty, as is the department's practice, Blankenbaker said. The special investigations unit will take over.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...pleasant-grove

She might have been justified. On the other hand, she was the only one of several cops at the scene who felt a need to open fire.
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:59 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Absolutely.
Operating a motor vehicle has a certain degree of attention built in as a kind of "implied consent".
Walking to my front door, not so much.
I ask again, if Guyger was a nurse, a bartender, a taxi driver or anyone other than a cop who entered someone else's home "by mistake" and shot them dead, would "oh, I was so tired!" be considered a shred of justification for one single second?
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Old 25th August 2019, 01:03 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
An early assessment by a conservative columnist in the National Review:





https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...rtial-justice/
Goddamn, but the National Review has gotten retarded over the past few years.
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Old 25th August 2019, 02:19 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I ask again, if Guyger was a nurse, a bartender, a taxi driver or anyone other than a cop who entered someone else's home "by mistake" and shot them dead, would "oh, I was so tired!" be considered a shred of justification for one single second?

How about this?

If Botham Jean had opened the door to Guyger's apartment by mistake and shot her dead, would this thread even exist? Or would he already be in prison?
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Old 25th August 2019, 02:32 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How about this?

If Botham Jean had opened the door to Guyger's apartment by mistake and shot her dead, would this thread even exist? Or would he already be in prison?
No way. He would have broken his own neck and died during transport.
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Old 25th August 2019, 02:54 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I ask again, if Guyger was a nurse, a bartender, a taxi driver or anyone other than a cop who entered someone else's home "by mistake" and shot them dead, would "oh, I was so tired!" be considered a shred of justification for one single second?
I accept that she made the mistake honestly, and that it was a reasonable mistake, wether overly fatigued or not. The element of possibly being sleep deprived is moot.

I really don't think what she does for a living makes a difference in how reasonable it was to make that error, however, you will find several posts throughout this thread wherein the posters express the opposite sentiment- that she should not be given the benefit of making an honest mistake because she is an LEO.
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Old 25th August 2019, 03:21 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I accept that she made the mistake honestly, and that it was a reasonable mistake, wether overly fatigued or not. The element of possibly being sleep deprived is moot.

I really don't think what she does for a living makes a difference in how reasonable it was to make that error, however, you will find several posts throughout this thread wherein the posters express the opposite sentiment- that she should not be given the benefit of making an honest mistake because she is an LEO.

You don't think that the training she is supposed to have had as a cop is at all relevant to the way she handed the situation?

Is it as likely she would have been armed at the time if she hadn't been a cop?
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Old 25th August 2019, 03:53 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I accept that she made the mistake honestly, and that it was a reasonable mistake, wether overly fatigued or not.
No you don't. You don't "accept" something and spend 80 pages writing a fan fiction of arguing against it.

Quote:
The element of possibly being sleep deprived is moot.
THEN STOP BRINGING IT UP!
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Old 25th August 2019, 04:01 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You don't think that the training she is supposed to have had as a cop is at all relevant to the way she handed the situation?

Is it as likely she would have been armed at the time if she hadn't been a cop?
My hope is that anyone would react better to that situation. My belief is that very few would.

I don't think civilians (or off duty LEOs) should be running around armed.
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Old 25th August 2019, 04:02 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No you don't. You don't "accept" something and spend 80 pages writing a fan fiction of arguing against it.



THEN STOP BRINGING IT UP!
Well, since you have chosen to ALL CAPS your demand, perhaps you can point to one of the hundred or so posts in this discussion where I did "bring it up".
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Old 25th August 2019, 04:05 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How about this?

If Botham Jean had opened the door to Guyger's apartment by mistake and shot her dead, would this thread even exist? Or would he already be in prison?
Interesting thought experiment. Had Mr. Jean made the same error, I would still find it a reasonable one.
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:09 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting thought experiment. Had Mr. Jean made the same error, I would still find it a reasonable one.
Just as you would if someone opened your door and shot you or your spouse or your children.
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:23 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I accept that she made the mistake honestly, and that it was a reasonable mistake, wether overly fatigued or not. The element of possibly being sleep deprived is moot.
If it's moot, why have you been defending it for quite some time now?


Quote:
I really don't think what she does for a living makes a difference in how reasonable it was to make that error, however, you will find several posts throughout this thread wherein the posters express the opposite sentiment- that she should not be given the benefit of making an honest mistake because she is an LEO.
Two points: First, regarding your last statement, do you seriously not see the massive double-standard applied to non-police versus police when these things occur? Just because a cop is off the official time clock (though still in full uniform, gun and all) suddenly they're to be treated precisely the same as a regular citizen?

Second, you keep saying it was a reasonable mistake. To what? To have gone into an apartment that wasn't hers? And the fact of her drawing her pistol and firing a few shots is therefore a-okay?

This is the whole point of contention. Just as I posted earlier, many states are wanting to pass laws which will punish people with a felony for driving drowsy and, through that negligence, killing someone else. If people think that causing the death of another is reasonable because of being fatigued, then why the desire to pass more strict laws when it does happen with driving?


Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting thought experiment. Had Mr. Jean made the same error, I would still find it a reasonable one.
I guess I'm confused. Have you stated she should go to jail or are you saying that because the one error of her entering the wrong apartment is reasonable, therefore she should not go to jail?
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:51 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
If it's moot, why have you been defending it for quite some time now?



Two points: First, regarding your last statement, do you seriously not see the massive double-standard applied to non-police versus police when these things occur? Just because a cop is off the official time clock (though still in full uniform, gun and all) suddenly they're to be treated precisely the same as a regular citizen?

Second, you keep saying it was a reasonable mistake. To what? To have gone into an apartment that wasn't hers? And the fact of her drawing her pistol and firing a few shots is therefore a-okay?

This is the whole point of contention. Just as I posted earlier, many states are wanting to pass laws which will punish people with a felony for driving drowsy and, through that negligence, killing someone else. If people think that causing the death of another is reasonable because of being fatigued, then why the desire to pass more strict laws when it does happen with driving?



I guess I'm confused. Have you stated she should go to jail or are you saying that because the one error of her entering the wrong apartment is reasonable, therefore she should not go to jail?
As to your first statement, I believe you are conflicting me with some other poster. My opinion on wether she was tired or not has been consistent throughout. I find it an error (going to the wrong door) that pretty much anyone could make tired or not.

WRT your next statement regarding wether an LEO may be allowed to be a "regular person" when not on duty. Largely they should, as an example, I would never accept an LEO doing their job while drunk- but certainly have no issue if they wish to be when not working.

WRT your "which mistake" query. Specifically in this instance, the mistake of believing she was entering her own apartment. From there there is a previously discussed "Mistake of fact" principle in Texas law which modifies the concept of criminal intent necessary for conviction of certain crimes.

WRT comparisons to "while driving". Driving already has certain standards of attention that are legally codified (and perhaps a "no doing it while sleepy" one would be a good addition) but there is no minimum legal amount of attention that is legally codified for walking to ones' front door- so the comparison is unconvincing.

The act of shooting Mr.Jean if she were not mistaken of where she was seems to be a legal action in Texas. There are allowances for "mistake of fact" intended to differentiate between making a tragic mistake, and committing a crime.

Based only on information available thus far it seems to me that a combination of a human mistake, a faulty door latch, and a couple of bad laws, not a criminal act, are why Mr.Jean is dead.
Ms.Guyer should be sued in civil court- she made an error that cost a man his life.
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:55 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Just as you would if someone opened your door and shot you or your spouse or your children.
Stipulate first the near identical nature of the locations in question, the unlatched door lock, amount of light and near identical layout of the homes, the shooter immediately attempting to render first aid- and calling 911, living in a "castle doctrine" state. And numerous other details making your hypothetical attempted "gotcha" nearly identical to the situation in question, and

Yes. I could accept such an accident as an accident.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:46 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Just as you would if someone opened your door and shot you or your spouse or your children.
Where I think distracted keeps making the mistake is that the "mistake of fact" only gets her to the wrong door. It does not cover her deliberate killing of Jean, there was no mistake of fact involved in her decision to kill him. The type of "mistake of fact" to excuse the killing would have to be something like she had a reasonable reason to think her gun was loaded with blanks.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:10 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Goddamn, but the National Review has gotten retarded over the past few years.
Do you care to enlighten us as to were you disagree with that?

That seems a perfectly reasonable application of conservative principles concerning the tmrights of the individual relative to agents of the state acting beyond their powers .
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:09 AM   #314
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This case isn't as novel as people are making out. Mistake of fact killings occur. Shooting a housemate that is mistaken for a home invader occur. Generally speaking, it is a crime, even if the shooter honestly believed they were in the lawful right to shoot. A parent that shoots their teenage kid who's up late at night is guilty of a crime, even if they think it's a home invader.

It is pretty well understood that using a gun to defend yourself comes with tremendous legal risk. A split second decision will be reexamined in excruciating detail after the fact. For ordinary citizens, this legal risk is well understood and usually appreciated. Someone using deadly force must be sure or face the consequences. The US recognizes the right to use deadly force in self defense, but we do not make generous allowances for errors in judgement. Law enforcement has long enjoyed an absurdly wide latitude when it comes to improperly using force, but the culture is slowly turning (hopefully).

Guyger's killing of Botham is criminal negligence at the very least. I don't care how tired she was, or how much the apartments looked alike. Someone carrying a gun is assuming tremendous liability and must use proper diligence. She undoubtedly failed to do so. Using the reasonable person standard, she was criminally negligent in the killing of Jean.

As others pointed out, if Guyger were just some ordinary lady with a lawfully carried gun that shot a man dead in his own apartment, there would be nothing noteworthy about this case. She'd be facing certain conviction. It wouldn't have taken three days for a charge to come down, she would have been arrested on the spot. No one would be talking about "lawful orders" (absurd on its face).

Being a cop has complicated things as there is a strong culture of police worship and boot licking, and there's no guarantee that such temperaments won't influence the jury.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:16 AM   #315
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The fatigue will be used to justify the initial mistake of entering the wrong apartment.

Once they can establish that a mistake happened due to sleep deprivation, then the whole part about the shooting becomes: She shot who she thought was an intruder in her apartment.

I've posted several articles and studies showing that police departments know about the problems with sleep deprivation. Mistakes such as: Car Accidents, Being more aggressive when not necessary, sleeping while on duty, are all found to be more prevalent after 12 hours awake. In your expert opinion, would you place: entering the wrong apartment, as an equivalent action to the other mistakes that were found to happen at higher frequency after 12 hours of working?

This article summarizes what will be the basis of the establishment of mistake of fact:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...or-them-and-us

Quote:
Sleep-deprived officers had 51 percent greater odds of falling asleep while driving on duty

One in four of the total study group reported falling asleep at the wheel once or twice a month. They also reported a higher rate of falling asleep while stopped in traffic, talking on the phone or in meetings.
Uber Drivers get their app shut down after 12 hours of driving, for 6 hours.

The police department threw her under the bus. I truly hope the department gets the bulk of the punishment.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The fatigue will be used to justify the initial mistake of entering the wrong apartment.

Once they can establish that a mistake happened due to sleep deprivation, then the whole part about the shooting becomes: She shot who she thought was an intruder in her apartment.

I've posted several articles and studies showing that police departments know about the problems with sleep deprivation. Mistakes such as: Car Accidents, Being more aggressive when not necessary, sleeping while on duty, are all found to be more prevalent after 12 hours awake. In your expert opinion, would you place: entering the wrong apartment, as an equivalent action to the other mistakes that were found to happen at higher frequency after 12 hours of working?

This article summarizes what will be the basis of the establishment of mistake of fact:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...or-them-and-us



Uber Drivers get their app shut down after 12 hours of driving, for 6 hours.

The police department threw her under the bus. I truly hope the department gets the bulk of the punishment.
Again she did not accidentally shoot Jean. Her mistake of fact (if we accept it) only covers her entering the wrong apartment by mistake.

There is zero evidence she shot Jean by accident.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #317
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In regards to sleep deprivation:

Guyger has lawful duty to not kill her neighbors, she does not have a lawful duty to obey her employer or remain at a job that makes her unsafe to be around.

Bad employment policies do not ameliorate her duty to obey the law. If her job his straining her past the point of proper functioning, it is her duty to mitigate that. That may mean she quits her job, or refuses to work these shifts and gets fired.

We wouldn't accept a shooting because someone had to work a double shifts at Denny's all week. We wouldn't accept someone falling asleep at the wheel just because their job made them exhausted. Florida is at-will employment, she can say no whenever she decides to. That may be heartless, because we all have to make a living, but there's no "my boss made me do it" exemption in the law.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:30 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This case isn't as novel as people are making out. Mistake of fact killings occur. Shooting a housemate that is mistaken for a home invader occur. Generally speaking, it is a crime, even if the shooter honestly believed they were in the lawful right to shoot. A parent that shoots their teenage kid who's up late at night is guilty of a crime, even if they think it's a home invader.

It is pretty well understood that using a gun to defend yourself comes with tremendous legal risk. A split second decision will be reexamined in excruciating detail after the fact. For ordinary citizens, this legal risk is well understood and usually appreciated. Someone using deadly force must be sure or face the consequences. The US recognizes the right to use deadly force in self defense, but we do not make generous allowances for errors in judgement. Law enforcement has long enjoyed an absurdly wide latitude when it comes to improperly using force, but the culture is slowly turning (hopefully).

Guyger's killing of Botham is criminal negligence at the very least. I don't care how tired she was, or how much the apartments looked alike. Someone carrying a gun is assuming tremendous liability and must use proper diligence. She undoubtedly failed to do so. Using the reasonable person standard, she was criminally negligent in the killing of Jean.

As others pointed out, if Guyger were just some ordinary lady with a lawfully carried gun that shot a man dead in his own apartment, there would be nothing noteworthy about this case. She'd be facing certain conviction. It wouldn't have taken three days for a charge to come down, she would have been arrested on the spot. No one would be talking about "lawful orders" (absurd on its face).

Being a cop has complicated things as there is a strong culture of police worship and boot licking, and there's no guarantee that such temperaments won't influence the jury.
And Texas has negligence homicide as a specific offence. At the least, she's guilty of that.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:31 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again she did not accidentally shoot Jean. Her mistake of fact (if we accept it) only covers her entering the wrong apartment by mistake.

There is zero evidence she shot Jean by accident.
The intent to shoot was to stop an intruder in her apartment, this however was only able to happen because of the mistake of fact, of entering the wrong apartment.

An example: A driver of an armored vehicle is told that anything on Hill 225 is a hostile enemy. But due to lack of sleep, the armored vehicle crew has placed their sights on a nearby hill 221, a vehicle appears, the first vehicle fires a round striking what they thought was an enemy vehicle. They intended to blow up the vehicle, but made a mistake of fact on the target area.

This would still be an accident, despite the intent of shooting the vehicle.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:35 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This case isn't as novel as people are making out. Mistake of fact killings occur. Shooting a housemate that is mistaken for a home invader occur. Generally speaking, it is a crime, even if the shooter honestly believed they were in the lawful right to shoot. A parent that shoots their teenage kid who's up late at night is guilty of a crime, even if they think it's a home invader.

It is pretty well understood that using a gun to defend yourself comes with tremendous legal risk. A split second decision will be reexamined in excruciating detail after the fact. For ordinary citizens, this legal risk is well understood and usually appreciated. Someone using deadly force must be sure or face the consequences. The US recognizes the right to use deadly force in self defense, but we do not make generous allowances for errors in judgement. Law enforcement has long enjoyed an absurdly wide latitude when it comes to improperly using force, but the culture is slowly turning (hopefully).

Guyger's killing of Botham is criminal negligence at the very least. I don't care how tired she was, or how much the apartments looked alike. Someone carrying a gun is assuming tremendous liability and must use proper diligence. She undoubtedly failed to do so. Using the reasonable person standard, she was criminally negligent in the killing of Jean.

As others pointed out, if Guyger were just some ordinary lady with a lawfully carried gun that shot a man dead in his own apartment, there would be nothing noteworthy about this case. She'd be facing certain conviction. It wouldn't have taken three days for a charge to come down, she would have been arrested on the spot. No one would be talking about "lawful orders" (absurd on its face).

Being a cop has complicated things as there is a strong culture of police worship and boot licking, and there's no guarantee that such temperaments won't influence the jury.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

"Investigators are saying the incident is being treated as an accident, and no charges are being filed"

So, no.
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