Merged Questioning the existence or non-existence of spirits/Pseudo-skeptics

JayUtah said:
Funny how no one worries about practicing spiritualism without a license.
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My question is if his grandfather is giving him the chills from beyond the grave did grandpa give him a chill when he was alive, and if so, were the police notified?
 
Ricardo said:
SPIRITS ARE NOT ACCORDING TO SCIENCE! NOW I DON'T BELIEVE IN SPIRITS!

https://www.realclearscience.com/bl...llider_disproved_the_existence_of_ghosts.html
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You are kidding right? Just because science cannot detect ghosts you have abandoned your beliefs? It seems obvious to me that in a God created system that works for our spiritual evolution, and in that system it is not meant for us to have scientific proof of spirits. There is absolutely no way that the creator of that system would make it easy to detect immortal spirits with machines.

The spirit world is not a part of the physical universe, and is on another level of existence. The only thing in this universe that is not from it is our consciousness its self.
 
Scorpion said:
You are kidding right? Just because science cannot detect ghosts you have abandoned your beliefs? It seems obvious to me that in a God created system that works for our spiritual evolution, and in that system it is not meant for us to have scientific proof of spirits. There is absolutely no way that the creator of that system would make it easy to detect immortal spirits with machines.

The spirit world is not a part of the physical universe, and is on another level of existence. The only thing in this universe that is not from it is our consciousness its self.
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You could discuss this with the skeptics of this forum!
 
Axxman300 said:
You better hope so.

If you actually believe in spirits then you'd know there are consequences for trying to use them for personal BS.

You are not a good ambassador for your side of things.
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Brian Cox is right! can't i change my mind? I have no right to be a skeptic? This forum is being helpful to me.
 
BStrong said:
My question is if his grandfather is giving him the chills from beyond the grave did grandpa give him a chill when he was alive, and if so, were the police notified?
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There is a lot of police corruption here in Brazil!
 
Now if this conversion is real you must face a society that will invoke spirits. For big and small things.

Your own mother will do things you will find silly and baseless. And you cannot say anything to her.

Some of BrazilIan culture will appear to be just dumb ceremony. Are you ready to go against all that yet?
 
Ricardo said:
yea ! Why do spiritualist beliefs harm society? if so why?
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I thought you had decided to quit this thread until you had caught up on your homework.

Spiritualist beliefs harm society by harming the individuals in that society.

That harm can be by omission, where the one afflicted by a malady will not seek scientifically sound treatment, instead pursuing some woo option. The woo option may also be worse than neutral, for themselves and others involved.
 
Ricardo said:
Brian Cox is right! can't i change my mind?
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I doubt anyone is convinced that after pages and pages of discussion, including declarations that belief in spirits is culturally accepted and common where you live, you've abruptly and entirely changed direction. None of your critics is especially convinced that you are the least sincere in your behavior and approach here. So it's more likely this sudden reversal is just part of an ongoing game. Even now you're still focused on finding fault with your critics.

Sorry, but you have no credibility, and it's your own fault you don't. If no one believes you now, that's what one reaps for not taking one's critics seriously to begin with.

I have no right to be a skeptic?
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You aren't a skeptic. You show no rational or critical thought in supporting the existence of spirits and you show no rational or critical thought to support your alleged change of heart. You are still stuck in the notion that skepticism is about getting a certain answer rather than closely examining the process by which an answer is gotten. You can't be a skeptic until you demonstrate that you know what it means to be one. You haven't done that.

This forum is being helpful to me.
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The forum has been offering help in two threads for page after page, which you ignored in most cases and in other cases just used it as a springboard to accuse your critics of being closed-minded and uninformed. No one believes you suddenly find their contribution helpful.
 
Scorpion said:
It seems obvious to me that in a God created system that works for our spiritual evolution, and in that system it is not meant for us to have scientific proof of spirits. There is absolutely no way that the creator of that system would make it easy to detect immortal spirits with machines.
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How do you know all this?

The spirit world is not a part of the physical universe...
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If spirits cause effects in the physical universe, they are part of the physical universe. That's what "physical universe" means.
 
Ricardo said:
yea ! Why do spiritualist beliefs harm society? if so why?
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Confidence tricksters ( Con Artists) use false facts to take money from ignorant people. A common method is "spiritualists" charging money to contact the dead.

Houdini, the stage magician, investigated and debunked these con artists for Scientific American, the science magazine, over a hundred years ago.

Here are five spiritualists who were debunked as con artists.

The Rise and Fall of 5 Claimed Mediums
https://mentalfloss.com/article/69973/rise-and-fall-5-claimed-mediums
 
Ricardo said:
but then where did this idea of spirits come from? Who invented this idea of spirits?
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One contributing reason was from classical Roman funeral practices. An actor was hired to wear a wax mask representing the deceased and that actor would lead the funeral procession saying all the good things the deceased had done in his life. "I was a good father" "I was a loving husband" "I helped build the forum" and so on.

The word "specter" (spirit) comes from Latin "Spectrum" meaning appearance, vision, apparition

You still see this in modern orthodox and European graveyards where a portrait of the deceased is on the gravestone with claims "Good father" "Loving husband" and so on.
 

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Ricardo said:
yea ! Why do spiritualist beliefs harm society? if so why?
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An example was a site started by our own Robert Lancaster. You should familiarize yourself with his brilliant writing on two "spiritualists" who caused great harm to society.
 
Because of the need for completely controlled experiments to test a hypothesis, science cannot prove everything. For example, ideas about spirits can never be confirmed or denied, as there is no experiment that can test their presence.
Wrong ! yes already exists! the great hadron collider.
 
Ricardo said:
Because of the need for completely controlled experiments to test a hypothesis, science cannot prove everything. For example, ideas about spirits can never be confirmed or denied, as there is no experiment that can test their presence.
Wrong ! yes already exists! the great hadron collider.
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If they exist, then their existence can be demonstrated. If their existence cannot be demonstrated, how can they be said to exist?
 
Ricardo said:
the great hadron collider!
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It's clear that you know very little about the Large Hadron Collider - what it is, what it does or how it works - so I'll refrain from asking you how you might use the LHC to look for spirits (hint: spirits aren't subatomic particles, which can be and are detected by the LHC all the time) and instead ask you whether you're still taking this discussion seriously or not.
 
arthwollipot said:
It's clear that you know very little about the Large Hadron Collider - what it is, what it does or how it works - so I'll refrain from asking you how you might use the LHC to look for spirits (hint: spirits aren't subatomic particles, which can be and are detected by the LHC all the time) and instead ask you whether you're still taking this discussion seriously or not.
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Brian Cox is right!
 
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arthwollipot said:
It's clear that you know very little about the Large Hadron Collider - what it is, what it does or how it works - so I'll refrain from asking you how you might use the LHC to look for spirits (hint: spirits aren't subatomic particles, which can be and are detected by the LHC all the time) and instead ask you whether you're still taking this discussion seriously or not.
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Ricardo simply seems to be repeating in his own words what Sean Carroll says in the video to which he was pointed.
 
Ricardo,


Read The Duelling Neurosurgeons for a partial understanding of the problem of perception and the brain. You said it is available in Portuguese.


This is the third fourth time I suggest this book.
 
Ricardo said:
Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't exist! spirits exist because they prove their existence through effects even though they are invisible!
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Those chills you feel are actually because of invisible pink unicorns, not spirits, therefore they prove their existence through effects.
 
arthwollipot said:
It's clear that you know very little about the Large Hadron Collider - what it is, what it does or how it works - so I'll refrain from asking you how you might use the LHC to look for spirits (hint: spirits aren't subatomic particles, which can be and are detected by the LHC all the time) and instead ask you whether you're still taking this discussion seriously or not.
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It's a reference to this-:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ghosts-brian-cox-large-hadron-collider-cern-real-truth-standard-model-physics-a7598026.html

To use a metaphor I used in one of Scorpion's threads, while the jigsaw puzzle of knowledge is far from complete we've completed enough to know that it is a vast and intricate pattern composed of delicate and intricate pieces and that the thick plywood cutout of a barnyard cow from a baby's shape sorter that is spiritualism just isn't going to fit.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
It's a reference to this-:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ghosts-brian-cox-large-hadron-collider-cern-real-truth-standard-model-physics-a7598026.html

To use a metaphor I used in one of Scorpion's threads, while the jigsaw puzzle of knowledge is far from complete we've completed enough to know that it is a vast and intricate pattern composed of delicate and intricate pieces and that the thick plywood cutout of a barnyard cow from a baby's shape sorter that is spiritualism just isn't going to fit.
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I see you are still using a quote from me in your sig where I state, "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think"

A lifetime of fighting for my sanity against the processes of schizophrenia, most of the time without medication, tells me this is true. I am the thinker, not my brain, and chemical chaos in my brain cannot make me less than my own master.

As far as I am concerned that is because thought is free, and not controlled by our brain chemistry. The reason for that is we are a spirit linked to the brain by the etheric body.
 
JayUtah said:
How do you know all this?



If spirits cause effects in the physical universe, they are part of the physical universe. That's what "physical universe" means.
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He knows it because he experiences these stuff.
When I asked him why for example Mohammad's experience about the spiritual world is different than his he said because Mohammad had scientific errors in his message. So because I can't show any scientific mistake in Scorpion's posts I should accept his claims of "the spiritual world" as real and true.
 
Scorpion said:
I see you are still using a quote from me in your sig where I state, "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think"

A lifetime of fighting for my sanity against the processes of schizophrenia, most of the time without medication, tells me this is true. I am the thinker, not my brain, and chemical chaos in my brain cannot make me less than my own master.

As far as I am concerned that is because thought is free, and not controlled by our brain chemistry. The reason for that is we are a spirit linked to the brain by the etheric body.
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Except that doctors and scientists can change how you think and feel by messing about with your brain chemistry, so... *shrug*
 
steenkh said:
I'm sure he didn't understand it at all - don't forget that he have to use Google Translator to understand us - but he did understand that somehow the LHC was involved.
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It's almost as if the whole "google translate" thing is a lie and he's never been sincere on this board about anything at all, isn't it?
 
Scorpion said:
I see you are still using a quote from me in your sig where I state, "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think"

A lifetime of fighting for my sanity against the processes of schizophrenia, most of the time without medication, tells me this is true. I am the thinker, not my brain, and chemical chaos in my brain cannot make me less than my own master.

As far as I am concerned that is because thought is free, and not controlled by our brain chemistry. The reason for that is we are a spirit linked to the brain by the etheric body.
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Once again you brandish your plywood cow and insist it fits the intricate jigsaw being assembled around you.
 
Ricardo said:
Brian Cox is right!
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Not necessarily. The claim is predicated on the premise that ghosts are "pure energy." Cox does not elaborate on what form of energy that may be, or upon how he knows this. He just says that it must be true "by definition," but neglects to identify the source of this alleged definition. If spirits are not as Cox has formulated them, then everything that follows from that premise is suspect, including necessary detection by the LHC.

I doubt that all believers in spirits can agree on what defines a spirit in terms of possible physical effects. Mormons, for example, belief fervently in spirits but state explicitly in their doctrine that spirits are material. If spirits are matter, then it follows that such a spirit ought to be detected by any means that identifies the presence of matter. But then their doctrine goes on to disclaim that the matter from which spirits are composed is "more refined" than ordinary matter. No further details are given, but we infer that some difference must separate spiritual matter from ordinary matter in their formulation.

This raises the central dilemma: without a more precise definition of a spirit, scientific examination remains frustrated. In the extreme case, the definition is simply rendered as "Whatever science can never detect." I shouldn't have to belabor the wishfulness of that postulate. But as long as it is claimed that spirits can affect the physical world -- and that is a typical claim -- then declaring them to be forever off limits to science is just inherently contradictory. We need consider such claims no further. They are facially unsustainable.

But in fairness, Cox's analysis stands in danger of being a straw man. Regardless of how many unreasonable or contradictory definitions circulate, the definition of a spirit as "pure energy" does not seem to correspond accurately to the statements of many or most claimants.
 
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