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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:23 AM   #321
The Don
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which logically would mean you think every one who voted for Trump not first finding out what a racist, misogynistic scumbag he is, should be labelled a racist, misogynistic scumbag.

Or does your rule vary?
Who organised the march was well known ahead of time so pretending to be surprised isn't a valid defence IMO.

Regarding President Trump, my personal view is that a significant proportion of people voted for him simply because he was the Republican candidate. I don't think there is a corresponding default position for taking part in the march.

IMO anyone still supporting President Trump and the GOP is a racist misogynist on the grounds that GOP policy is both of those things - and I'd add a side order of scientifically illiterate as well.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:30 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Who organised the march was well known ahead of time so pretending to be surprised isn't a valid defence IMO.

Regarding President Trump, my personal view is that a significant proportion of people voted for him simply because he was the Republican candidate. I don't think there is a corresponding default position for taking part in the march.

IMO anyone still supporting President Trump and the GOP is a racist misogynist on the grounds that GOP policy is both of those things - and I'd add a side order of scientifically illiterate as well.
Fair enough

Personally think a lot of people don't actually think spend any real effort checking out who the people are that do these things or especially politics.

I am sure there is a load who heard about it and don't have a clue who ran it.

Just "Sick of these Goddam' gay folks!"

Same with Trump

There will be a load of voters who will vote for him again that haven't seen what a prat he is. As they all just watch fox.

And he will win again

But this doesn't mean all the people who vote for him next time are racist, misogynistic scumbags.

They are just ignorant
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:38 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair enough

Personally think a lot of people don't actually think spend any real effort checking out who the people are that do these things or especially politics.

I am sure there is a load who heard about it and don't have a clue who ran it.

Just "Sick of these Goddam' gay folks!"

Same with Trump

There will be a load of voters who will vote for him again that haven't seen what a prat he is. As they all just watch fox.

And he will win again

But this doesn't mean all the people who vote for him next time are racist, misogynistic scumbags.

They are just ignorant
Yes, that's your opinion.

Mine is that there is a point where there is no longer plausible deniability. W.r.t. President Trump and the whole GOP, that point passed a long time ago.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:40 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, that's your opinion.

Mine is that there is a point where there is no longer plausible deniability. W.r.t. President Trump and the whole GOP, that point passed a long time ago.
I think you are in for a bit of massive disappointment and a lot of resentment of half of Americans then.

But at least you get to call even more people Nazis
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Old 2nd September 2019, 01:04 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think you are in for a bit of massive disappointment and a lot of resentment of half of Americans then.

But at least you get to call even more people Nazis
They're not Nazis, they're "only" racists and/or misogynists and finding out that the 25% or thereabouts of Americans who vote for the reelection of President Trump are racists and/or misogynists is neither surprising nor disappointing.


edited to add.....

Which isn't to say that none of the 75% who either don't bother to vote or who vote for another candidate are racists and/or misogynists.

Last edited by The Don; 2nd September 2019 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 02:41 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair enough

Personally think a lot of people don't actually think spend any real effort checking out who the people are that do these things or especially politics.

I am sure there is a load who heard about it and don't have a clue who ran it.

Just "Sick of these Goddam' gay folks!"

Yes, it's possible that a few of the people (you can't really describe the minuscule rally as "a load") at the shiny happy people rally were extremely ignorant homophobes and not actual Nazis. (It's also possible that the guys in the clownsuit and the dinosuit were trolling the Nazis.)

Quote:
Same with Trump

There will be a load of voters who will vote for him again that haven't seen what a prat he is. As they all just watch fox.

And he will win again

But this doesn't mean all the people who vote for him next time are racist, misogynistic scumbags.

They are just ignorant

If they have a TV or internet access, they can't be ignorant about Trump's racism and misogynism.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:37 AM   #327
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There was one woman quoted who was at the parade/rally to support her right to raise her son to be heterosexual and marry a woman when he grows up...

I'm thinking karma might have a surprise for her someday.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:52 AM   #328
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Are you thinking of the possibility that her son might turn out to be gay? Or become an incel?
He might also become a trans woman. I don't know what she would consider to be worse in that case: if s/he married a woman or a man!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd September 2019, 05:18 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
There was one woman.
Well judging by the photos there certainly wasn't more than one!
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Old 2nd September 2019, 05:24 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it's possible that a few of the people (you can't really describe the minuscule rally as "a load") at the shiny happy people rally were extremely ignorant homophobes and not actual Nazis. (It's also possible that the guys in the clownsuit and the dinosuit were trolling the Nazis.)




If they have a TV or internet access, they can't be ignorant about Trump's racism and misogynism.
If that is what you think fair enough.

Disagree, but all good
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Old 2nd September 2019, 06:07 AM   #331
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How do you raise someone to be straight?
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Old 2nd September 2019, 10:44 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I was assuming that not everyone on it has that close a connection to the organisers.

But if you want to go that route

Does this mean every person protesting these things is a violent ANTIFA thug equivalent
Yes lots of people who are not nazis go to nazi organized events, like the Unite the Right marches. Many fine people there despite it being organized by nazis.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 10:46 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair enough

Personally think a lot of people don't actually think spend any real effort checking out who the people are that do these things or especially politics.

I am sure there is a load who heard about it and don't have a clue who ran it.

Just "Sick of these Goddam' gay folks!"

Same with Trump

There will be a load of voters who will vote for him again that haven't seen what a prat he is. As they all just watch fox.

And he will win again

But this doesn't mean all the people who vote for him next time are racist, misogynistic scumbags.

They are just ignorant
Yes it is like calling every member of the German National Socialist Workers Party a Nazi when they are clearly all members for a large variety of reasons.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 10:47 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How do you raise someone to be straight?
Beat the gay out of them of course.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:13 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Thank you for today's learning experience.
You're welcome. A great-uncle of mine was there. He brought a cargo hook with him.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:36 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Boston 'straight pride' parade dwarfed by large counter-protest (Guardian, Sep. 1, 2019)

'Straight Pride' parade in Boston draws counterprotesters (CNN, Sep. 1, 2019)

Boston ‘Straight Pride’ parade draws ‘oppressed majority,’ counter-protesters (Times of Israel, Sep. 1, 2019)

WCVB Channel 5 Boston: Aerial images: Controversial straight pride parade (Aug. 31, 2019)
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I AGREE
As I said...the response was prepared, it was ready both for the rally and the police's sometimes violent protection of it.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 12:14 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How do you raise someone to be straight?
A good religious upbringing like Ted Haggard.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 04:12 AM   #338
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For reasons totally unknowable, Boston's fascist demonstration didn't turn into a morass of street fighting like the many times in Portland. Boston will remain an uninteresting target for rabble-rousers because these demonstrations tend to be tedious affairs.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:35 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For reasons totally unknowable, Boston's fascist demonstration didn't turn into a morass of street fighting like the many times in Portland. Boston will remain an uninteresting target for rabble-rousers because these demonstrations tend to be tedious affairs.
*colonists throwing cases of tea into the harbor glance up*
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:36 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Idiots doing a pointless march about being sexually straight to troll the left makes them Nazis?

The bar for being a Nazi seems to have gone down significantly.

Trouble for the left is they tend to always fall for and react to trolling.
This event is not in and of itself enough to justify calling them Nazis. The organizers themselves however have a long history with the more toxic aspects of the alt-right community. For example:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...straight-pride
Quote:
As ThinkProgress was the first to report, Mark Sahady — one of three men credited with organizing the event — has ties to the New Hampshire American Guard and the Massachusetts Patriot Front, both of which the American Defamation League defines as a white supremacist groups. He also has connections to the Proud Boys, the group that was responsible for violently beating a man who stole one of their MAGA hats on the streets of New York City in October 2018. The mob called him a “faggot,” threw him to the ground, and kicked him repeatedly.

Sahady’s co-organizer, Hugo, was backed by the “alt-lite” group Resist Marxism during his unsuccessful run for Massachusetts’ Fifth Congressional District last year.
While not necessarily Nazis in the literal, "They call themselves that" sense the event was organized by people who are players in groups who are ideologically aligned with most American Nazi groups. While calling them "Nazis" is a tad hyperbolic, it's a perfectly justifiable shorthand for describing their actual politics.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I was assuming that not everyone on it has that close a connection to the organisers(sic).
I'd say that's a rather large assumption given how small the parade was. "A few hundred" isn't that big, especially for an event that's been getting this much national attention for as long as it has. The politics of the organizers have been at the forefront of a lot of that coverage. Anyone who marched in that parade either knew exactly who they were aligning themselves with or are so profoundly clueless and ignorant that they're among the sort who will happily go along with a totalitarian government as long as it says it hates the same people they do and shouts "Praise Jesus" every now and then.

If you want to be pedantic about it, we could call the marchers "Nazis, Nazi-sympathizers and useful idiots."
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:37 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*colonists throwing cases of tea into the harbor glance up*
i have it on good authority that a band of Indians did that. Please don't disparage our upstanding citizenry with such smears.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:39 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*colonists throwing cases of tea into the harbor glance up*
I'm pretty sure there was more than one injury at the Fragile Masculinity Parade. The Boston Tea Party was a fairly civilized affair given what it was.

https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/b...ea-party-facts

Quote:
There was only one person injured in the event (and they mistakenly thought he was dead).
John Crane was thought to be dead when he was knocked unconscious during the Boston Tea Party. His fellow patriots hid him under a pile of wood shavings in a nearby shop. He regained consciousness a few hours later and was the only person injured during the protest.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:51 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
This event is not in and of itself enough to justify calling them Nazis. The organizers themselves however have a long history with the more toxic aspects of the alt-right community. For example:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...straight-pride


While not necessarily Nazis in the literal, "They call themselves that" sense the event was organized by people who are players in groups who are ideologically aligned with most American Nazi groups. While calling them "Nazis" is a tad hyperbolic, it's a perfectly justifiable shorthand for describing their actual politics.



I'd say that's a rather large assumption given how small the parade was. "A few hundred" isn't that big, especially for an event that's been getting this much national attention for as long as it has. The politics of the organizers have been at the forefront of a lot of that coverage. Anyone who marched in that parade either knew exactly who they were aligning themselves with or are so profoundly clueless and ignorant that they're among the sort who will happily go along with a totalitarian government as long as it says it hates the same people they do and shouts "Praise Jesus" every now and then.

If you want to be pedantic about it, we could call the marchers "Nazis, Nazi-sympathizers and useful idiots."
This, 1,000 times over. The Incelebration March was meaningless. But even Milo was there in a MAGA hat (pictured upthread) and Trump banners all over. This was a thinly disguised Klan Bake, and like Charlottesville and elsewhere, might have turned out very differently if the counterprotestors were not out in superior numbers.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:54 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How do you raise someone to be straight?

There was an article I read many years ago, which may or may not have been parody, which gave advice on how to raise your son to not become gay. It required a real balancing act. The two points that I still remember:
Don't let your son engage in traditonally female hobbies like arts and crafts or quietly sitting reading, but also don't let him engage in sweaty full-contact homoerotic sports like football or wrestling.
Don't live in big cities, because they're full of homosexuals who will try to recruit your son, but also don't live way out in the wilderness, because those areas contain roving homosexual rape gangs. The article specifically cited "Deliverance" as if it were a documentary.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:20 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which logically would mean you think every one who voted for Trump not first finding out what a racist, misogynistic scumbag he is, should be labelled a racist, misogynistic scumbag.
I mean, there's plenty of history for Trump going back to the mid-70's when he got pegged for not renting to POC, to the parkland 5, etc. that would have given them evidence. People from New York City are shocked everyone else didn't know what Trump was about before he got elected.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:32 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I mean, there's plenty of history for Trump going back to the mid-70's when he got pegged for not renting to POC, to the parkland 5, etc. that would have given them evidence. People from New York City are shocked everyone else didn't know what Trump was about before he got elected.
Or just paid attention to his campaign.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:42 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I mean, there's plenty of history for Trump going back to the mid-70's when he got pegged for not renting to POC, to the parkland 5, etc. that would have given them evidence. People from New York City are shocked everyone else didn't know what Trump was about before he got elected.
There was something about birtherism, too. He was on the national stage bravely Jim Crowing a sitting President.

No one can seriously say his racism was not worn openly after the first public howling for a long-form birth certificate, which no one, including Trump, actually has.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:57 AM   #348
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It looks like most of the violence started with the police attacking protestors, and there was one man who supposedly stood out as present at just about every such incident:

Captain John Danilecki presents a Clear and Present Danger to Boston

Did this guy have a bandoleer of pepper spray canisters?

Quote:
This police captain appeared to be the primary user of pepper spray in at least three different cases where the crowd was either peaceful, or otherwise retreating; and was actively participating in several scrums that resulted in participants being pushed to the ground. He reportedly punched a protester, triggering a violent melee in which at least 4 people were left on the ground. He was shown assaulting at multiple observers who were doing nothing other than standing nearby while officers were performing an arrest. He was in the front lines in almost every incident of violence, with the exception of those who (earlier in the day) blocked the unnecessary large line of police motorcycles.

Captain Danilecki was a menace and a danger to the community on Saturday, plain and simple. I truly believe that were it not for his behavior yesterday, the protest would have been a largely unremarkable event: there would have been no use of pepper spray, no violent altercations, and many fewer arrests. While there were minor clashes and incidents of violence throughout the day, every major incident involved exactly one person: Officer Danilecki.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:58 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I'd say that's a rather large assumption given how small the parade was. "A few hundred" isn't that big, especially for an event that's been getting this much national attention for as long as it has.
Good point. I was at a political march and rally on Saturday in Bristol UK. The organisers only announced it via social media on Thursday yet they still got a few thousand participants despite the weather being dire at the start. A few hundred to such a well publicised event is very poor.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:49 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Don't let your son engage in traditonally female hobbies like arts and crafts or quietly sitting reading, but also don't let him engage in sweaty full-contact homoerotic sports like football or wrestling.
Don't live in big cities, because they're full of homosexuals who will try to recruit your son, but also don't live way out in the wilderness, because those areas contain roving homosexual rape gangs. The article specifically cited "Deliverance" as if it were a documentary.

I read an awful lot as a very young boy and grew up in a big city and never left. I guess I should have been at least bi! I think that single mothers were considered to be another 'risk factor', and I had one of those, too!
Wikipedia actually mentions "Urban setting": "In Denmark, people born in the capital area were significantly less likely to marry heterosexually, and more likely to marry homosexually, than their rural-born peers." However, I suspect that this is because our "rural-born peers" with homosexual inclinations tend to flee to Copenhagen as soon as they are able to do so.

This article, Is your child a "prehomosexual"? Forecasting adult sexual orientation (Scientific American blog, Sep. 5, 2010), written by a gay man, says that, "young prehomosexual males are attracted to solitary sports, such as swimming, cycling, or tennis, over rougher contact sports, such as football or soccer."
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:21 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This article, Is your child a "prehomosexual"? Forecasting adult sexual orientation (Scientific American blog, Sep. 5, 2010), written by a gay man, says that, "young prehomosexual males are attracted to solitary sports, such as swimming, cycling, or tennis, over rougher contact sports, such as football or soccer."
I guess every triathlete must be a prehomosexual
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:29 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There was something about birtherism, too. He was on the national stage bravely Jim Crowing a sitting President.
Same with his misogamy. He cheated on wife A publicly with B, etc. Not even kind of privately. It was blatant and in the open. He's also had a myriad of degrading comments about females. Calling them dogs, implying that whenever they're made it's because they're having their period, and more.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:08 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Good point. I was at a political march and rally on Saturday in Bristol UK. The organisers only announced it via social media on Thursday yet they still got a few thousand participants despite the weather being dire at the start. A few hundred to such a well publicised event is very poor.
Likewise in Manchester.

ETA: there were 250 in Clitheroe. And a large crowd in Buxton.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:35 PM   #354
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A couple hundred is all that these right-wing agitators can ever really manage to muster in Boston. The city allows their permits, so there's no avenue for suing the city, and the police don't let them fight, so there's no glory in bashing antifa. The right's attempt of provocation in Boston have been a series of failures so far.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:39 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A couple hundred is all that these right-wing agitators can ever really manage to muster in Boston. The city allows their permits, so there's no avenue for suing the city, and the police don't let them fight, so there's no glory in bashing antifa. The right's attempt of provocation in Boston have been a series of failures so far.
Yea the hard core alt right seems to be a lot more west coast than east. Its why the white supremacist conferences do better out there than in NYC for example.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:50 PM   #356
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See 'Charlottesville, the States of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and others' for counterexamples
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:58 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See 'Charlottesville, the States of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and others' for counterexamples
Well maybe north east...
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:48 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It looks like most of the violence started with the police attacking protestors, and there was one man who supposedly stood out as present at just about every such incident:

Captain John Danilecki presents a Clear and Present Danger to Boston

Did this guy have a bandoleer of pepper spray canisters?
"We told y'all" - ancient African American proverb.

(Course, the counterprotestors had the sense to listen at least...)
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:52 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It looks like most of the violence started with the police attacking protestors, and there was one man who supposedly stood out as present at just about every such incident:

Captain John Danilecki presents a Clear and Present Danger to Boston

Did this guy have a bandoleer of pepper spray canisters?
I skimmed the article.
I don't know who wrote that but I think I can guess their agenda.

Contrast to this AFP article published by Yahoo! News:
US police fire pepper spray after pro-Trump 'Straight Pride' parade

Quote:
Boston (AFP) - US police fired pepper spray Saturday after counter-demonstrators accused them of protecting "Straight Pride" advocates who support President Donald Trump, and refused to let officers re-open a road.
Quote:
Before the more serious unrest, a couple of counter-demonstrators scuffled with police and threw dirt and eggs at them.
I wasn't there, so I don't know, but I'm a bit skeptical of these reports.

The job of the police was to prevent violence between the sides by keeping them separate and to restore order (re-open the roads) after it was over. Throwing dirt and eggs at the police, berating them for just doing what they're supposed to do, is not nice.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 10:33 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess every triathlete must be a prehomosexual

It reminds me of Oscar Wilde's aphorism: “Football is all very well as a game for rough girls, but is hardly suitable for delicate boys.”
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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