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Tags racial incidents , racial issues , racial slurs , Walter Mosley

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Old 9th September 2019, 01:19 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
A Wop?
That too.

I seem to remember an article written about Du-Wop by a guy named Ed Ward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Ward_(writer)

In his essay, he stated that singing with his Italian friends on the street was the only time he could use the word "wop" without having to run like hell afterwards.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:22 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes let's all share our "Hey I heard this racial slur used 20-40 years ago stories" as if those actually matter and is if that makes a writer using the N-word in the writing room any different.
Better we should cry, wail and rend our garments?

If somebody was offended by Moseley's language that's their prerogative but I'm not going to lose sleep over it, and I'm not going to lose sleep over Mosley quitting his gig.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:36 PM   #83
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Is he claiming that he wasn't told what the rules were and/or he wasn't given a handbook when he signed on? If not, then he was bound by the same rules as everyone else, and he knew it when he signed on.
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:55 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes let's all share our "Hey I heard this racial slur used 20-40 years ago stories" as if those actually matter and is if that makes a writer using the N-word in the writing room any different.
Yeah, an African-American author relates a personal experience with bigotry and then gets in trouble for referencing SOMEBODY ELSE's use of a racial slur...because vocalizing the word is offensive .
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:03 PM   #85
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I can't fault Mosley in any way. He was the n-word in the room, and sometimes you just gotta walk away.

Good for him. That's what I'd do.
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:49 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I can't fault Mosley in any way. He was the n-word in the room, and sometimes you just gotta walk away.

Good for him. That's what I'd do.
All's well that ends well, then.

He wanted to use a word against company policy. Company told him he couldn't use the word. He quit.

They will probably now employ someone who follows company policy now.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, maybe I'm missing something here...

Talented writer uses the n-word referring to himself. [rest cut for brevity]
Just to clarify: the complaint to HR wasn't that he was referring to himself. That was just a joke he told after the fact to HR.

The original use of the nword that triggered the complaint was his telling of an anecdote where a white police officer had pulled over his car because he was a black man in a white neighbourhood. The officer used the nword, and Mosley quoted the officer's racist rant verbatim instead of editing for politeness.

The outcome was that one of the coworkers anonymously reported him to HR as making her 'uncomfortable'.

The policy in the workplace is very general, there's no list of offensive words, just that you can't offend coworkers, which is only discovered after the fact when they narc anonymously. As far as he knew at the time, everybody was fine with hearing an accurate accounting of the police incident.

Mosley found the outcome intolerable for various reasons that he outlines in the opinion piece.

ETA: just to elaborate on that last bit, what depressed him was that these are writers writers who theoretically value language, speaking profanely all day, and suddenly deciding that one guy has to watch what he says.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I can't fault Mosley in any way. He was the n-word in the room, and sometimes you just gotta walk away.

Good for him. That's what I'd do.
I'm not 100% sure I'd do the same thing but yeah i get it.

What depresses me about this is that I was really excited when he was brought on board. I'm an aspiring detective story writer (4 years counting down to career transition!) and Mosley's Easy Rawlins series has been personally inspirational. I was looking forward to seeing what he could do with SF screenwriting.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:33 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Just to clarify: the complaint to HR wasn't that he was referring to himself. That was just a joke he told after the fact to HR.

The original use of the nword that triggered the complaint was his telling of an anecdote where a white police officer had pulled over his car because he was a black man in a white neighbourhood. The officer used the nword, and Mosley quoted the officer's racist rant verbatim instead of editing for politeness.

The outcome was that one of the coworkers anonymously reported him to HR as making her 'uncomfortable'.

The policy in the workplace is very general, there's no list of offensive words, just that you can't offend coworkers, which is only discovered after the fact when they narc anonymously. As far as he knew at the time, everybody was fine with hearing an accurate accounting of the police incident.

Mosley found the outcome intolerable for various reasons that he outlines in the opinion piece.

ETA: just to elaborate on that last bit, what depressed him was that these are writers writers who theoretically value language, speaking profanely all day, and suddenly deciding that one guy has to watch what he says.

I found this interview on The Foundation for Individual Rights In Educations YouTube channel about the book 'The Coddling of the American Mind' and one of the things that comes up is that there is increasing anecdotal evidence (Such as the item that started this thread.) that the Millenials (& Post-millenials) are increasingly turning to using Human Resources to mediate interpersonal disputes as the first resort rather than as the last resort.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rZiNM8wdns
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:54 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I found this interview on The Foundation for Individual Rights In Educations YouTube channel about the book 'The Coddling of the American Mind' and one of the things that comes up is that there is increasing anecdotal evidence (Such as the item that started this thread.) that the Millenials (& Post-millenials) are increasingly turning to using Human Resources to mediate interpersonal disputes as the first resort rather than as the last resort.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rZiNM8wdns
That must be terribly upsetting for professional Human Resources, being expected to fulfill some of the functions they're supposed to. I guess they'd better educate younger employees on how HR exists solely to spread gossip and protect the higher ups from legal liability for crimes they commit.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:14 AM   #91
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Kevin Hart and Walter Mosley should talk.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That must be terribly upsetting for professional Human Resources, being expected to fulfill some of the functions they're supposed to. I guess they'd better educate younger employees on how HR exists solely to spread gossip and protect the higher ups from legal liability for crimes they commit.
I think if you Venn diagram the most vocal anti-PC crusaders and douchebags who expect everyone else to just shut up and tolerate their douchebaggery, you’d have one circle.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:45 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I found this interview on The Foundation for Individual Rights In Educations YouTube channel about the book 'The Coddling of the American Mind' and one of the things that comes up is that there is increasing anecdotal evidence (Such as the item that started this thread.) that the Millenials (& Post-millenials) are increasingly turning to using Human Resources to mediate interpersonal disputes as the first resort rather than as the last resort.
This is an expected consequence when the most common response you get if you try to approach someone about an interpersonal problem on your own is REEEeeeezomgPCPOLICE****yourfeelingsSJWscumIthough tthiswasAmericayoucucksnowflake(etc).
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:03 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I found this interview on The Foundation for Individual Rights In Educations YouTube channel about the book 'The Coddling of the American Mind' and one of the things that comes up is that there is increasing anecdotal evidence (Such as the item that started this thread.) that the Millenials (& Post-millenials) are increasingly turning to using Human Resources to mediate interpersonal disputes as the first resort rather than as the last resort.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rZiNM8wdns
At the moment I don't think we know the age of the complainant, as the complaint was anonymous.


The trend is possible, but I'd like to see more data. HR departments are also more prevalent, so people raised with one would be more likely to understand its function.

Older employees maybe don't use it because "what's an HR department?" - not necessarily an indictment about morals.

It's not my generation but I have observed there's a cottage industry called "We economically ****** over the Millennials, let's add insult to injury and **** on their character as well, so we feel justified after the fact."
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:07 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That must be terribly upsetting for professional Human Resources, being expected to fulfill some of the functions they're supposed to. I guess they'd better educate younger employees on how HR exists solely to spread gossip and protect the higher ups from legal liability for crimes they commit.
My expectation is that before HR was willing to take on these responsibilities (I've been in the workforce since the mid-80s... HR powers have expanded like a plague over the years)... before people fled to HR, they would kvetch to the Shop Steward.

With the cratering of unions, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that these babysitting activities have simply been transferred to HR's desk.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:33 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
At the moment I don't think we know the age of the complainant, as the complaint was anonymous.


The trend is possible, but I'd like to see more data. HR departments are also more prevalent, so people raised with one would be more likely to understand its function.

Older employees maybe don't use it because "what's an HR department?" - not necessarily an indictment about morals.

It's not my generation but I have observed there's a cottage industry called "We economically ****** over the Millennials, let's add insult to injury and **** on their character as well, so we feel justified after the fact."
That's a thing? I'm an old fart but haven't run into that.

Bemoaning young guys that don't know how to change a tire? yes.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:30 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
That's a thing? I'm an old fart but haven't run into that.

Bemoaning young guys that don't know how to change a tire? yes.
I'd argue that if it has become a thing it's because the millennials started it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
That's a thing? I'm an old fart but haven't run into that.
Did you read the title of the book? The word the publisher went with was 'coddled'. Pretty much a blatant insult, because that's how to sell books, this is an established audience. Lukianoff explains his frustration with how the title choice was deliberate on the publisher's part, in the interview.

Specifically, I remember that anecdote from the book. No mention of how there's more women in corporations than in earlier generations (this could be a gender difference, not a generational difference) and no mention of how in the past, the Shop Steward filled this role, but increasingly in the workplaces involved, this option has been eliminated. This could just be an artefact of union decline.

And, I'm not sure if you noticed, but go back and listen to that HR example discussed in the interview, Lukianoff says the HR thing is based on unstructured anecdotes and he is hoping they could do a study someday to see if it's true.

I say this as somebody who has read pretty much everything Haidt has published and generally enjoyed them... this is not a strongly supported claim.





Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Bemoaning young guys that don't know how to change a tire? yes.
It's a drag, but not everybody has the same technical skills. The guy who can't change a tire is probably maintaining his parents' WiFi because they can't do that.

There *is* a scoring rubric for technical competence, which the OECD maintains based on annual national surveys. Their interest is understandable: if consumers can't operate the machines they want to buy, it's a problem. Peak technical competence seems to be the latter slice of Gen X born 1975ish. If anybody has bragging rights for 'being able to fix it,' it's this demographic.

This makes sense, as they're the last cohort of what's referred to as the Digital Immigrant demographic - born with analog, learned digital before becoming adults. They had to learn both families of skillsets. I'm a bit older, but I have the same Venn diagram: able to use a film SLR and develop the film in a darkroom, but also able to use a DSLR and correct in photoshop.

Here's something else that's interesting... in terms of individual competence, generational cohorts are less predictive than birth order. Firstborns are more different than Lastborns than Boomers are different from Millennials.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
That's a thing? I'm an old fart but haven't run into that.

Bemoaning young guys that don't know how to change a tire? yes.
As a millennial, yes, it absolutely does. Pretty much any op-ed or "think-piece" I've seen in the media talking about millenials classifies us as a generation of entitled whiners that make stupid life decisions, have no planning skills, and rely on tech for everything. A particularly popular genre a few years ago was talking about how millenials were "killing" certain industries because we don't know what fabric softener is and such. It's incredibly tiresome, and has led to a lot of internet activity criticizing boomers in retaliation. Maybe you haven't run into it (after all, it doesn't affect you), but everyone my age is used to regularly being insulted by the older generations.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:23 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
As a millennial, yes, it absolutely does. Pretty much any op-ed or "think-piece" I've seen in the media talking about millenials classifies us as a generation of entitled whiners that make stupid life decisions, have no planning skills, and rely on tech for everything. A particularly popular genre a few years ago was talking about how millenials were "killing" certain industries because we don't know what fabric softener is and such. It's incredibly tiresome, and has led to a lot of internet activity criticizing boomers in retaliation. Maybe you haven't run into it (after all, it doesn't affect you), but everyone my age is used to regularly being insulted by the older generations.
Just out of curiosity, how do you think GenXers perceive their treatment by the Boomers?

And Boomers treatment by the Greatest Generation?
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:30 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just out of curiosity, how do you think GenXers perceive their treatment by the Boomers?

And Boomers treatment by the Greatest Generation?
I think I know what you're trying to do: yes, I'm aware that every generation generally tends to demean the next generation. Hell, there are examples of ancient Greeks talking about how young people are destroying society.

I'm not saying it's a new thing. or even that millenials have it particularly bad (although there might be an argument that due to the pervasiveness of certain of media, we're exposed to it more frequently); I don't know if we do, and I don't particularly care, no one was talking about that. Someone asked if demeaning the character of millenials as a generation was a common trope, and I was replying in the affirmative as someone that sees it frequently.

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Old 11th September 2019, 04:33 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
As a millennial, yes, it absolutely does. Pretty much any op-ed or "think-piece" I've seen in the media talking about millenials classifies us as a generation of entitled whiners that make stupid life decisions, have no planning skills, and rely on tech for everything. A particularly popular genre a few years ago was talking about how millenials were "killing" certain industries because we don't know what fabric softener is and such. It's incredibly tiresome, and has led to a lot of internet activity criticizing boomers in retaliation. Maybe you haven't run into it (after all, it doesn't affect you), but everyone my age is used to regularly being insulted by the older generations.
It's also possibly not so much that he hasn't run into it, but it's hard to see the ocean when you're swimming in it. My dad's like this... they tell sexist jokes at his golf club all day, and at this point he just thinks they're funny, can't see the sexism in them. It's his baseline normal.


I roll my eyes at these, but the harm comes with the misinformation. It's *not* demonstrated that millennials go to HR more than other generations (all things being equal, controlling for the confounding factors I threw out above) - it's just a rumour the author heard hanging out with his investment buddies who work in HR and seem to like to complain.

And we don't know from this Mosley scenario since the identity of the complainant is withheld.

What we do know is that Mosley (b 1952, smack in the middle of Boomer gen) was so upset about being asked to watch his language that he quit. It feels like the decision about who's the bigger snowflake depends on the age of the person making the claim rather than the objective facts of the scenario.



Another classic misinformation is the avocado toast crisis. Apparently, Millennials aren't struggling to get into the housing market NOT because previous generations allowed their educational costs to explode ten times faster than inflation, and NOT because of protective housing bylaws crunched the housing inventory supply, but rather, because they buy a snack a few times a week. The math doesn't work out and it's a silly claim, but that never stopped a publisher.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:40 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It's a drag, but not everybody has the same technical skills. The guy who can't change a tire is probably maintaining his parents' WiFi because they can't do that.

I can change a tire and setup a network. In fact now that we have Youtube there's little excuse not to fix a lot of things yourself. I even learned how to clean cobwebs from my BBQ burners so they'd work again.

LOL at parents "WiFi" - it's his/her network too because he still lives at home!
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:56 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I can change a tire and setup a network. In fact now that we have Youtube there's little excuse not to fix a lot of things yourself. I even learned how to clean cobwebs from my BBQ burners so they'd work again.
Meh, some things you can't learn on youtube, you gotta get your hands dirty and make mistakes. I say this as somebody who has done construction and boat repair/maintenance in my youth, and built my recreational cabin more or less myself. The first thousand hours are pretty iffy. Practice is a thing.

Like I said, this is not a demographic phenomenon, it's an individual thing. Generations are *slightly* different than each other. Within a generation, there's much more variation. Within a family, there's much more variation. The decision to select one demographic factor specifically may reveal a prejudice.



Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
LOL at parents "WiFi" - it's his/her network too because he still lives at home!
That was my exact point, yes. Their $3.5M home that they bought for $7500, and then voted to restrict development in the neighbourhood because it was a great way to make the houses skyrocket in price. Then for some reason they punch down on their son who was too young to even vote, for not being able to afford it.
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