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Old 10th September 2019, 05:17 PM   #2641
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You normally don't have weeks to make that decision. For a referendum you do.
You have weeks if you want weeks, are you denying that false advertising is subject to regulation?
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:55 PM   #2642
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You have weeks if you want weeks, are you denying that false advertising is subject to regulation?
Why would I confirm or deny an irrelevant detail?

But if you will feel better with my approval, then yes, in some countries there are false advertising laws. I actually don't know what the law in the UK is.

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Old 10th September 2019, 09:10 PM   #2643
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I disagree, if a salesman or advertiser deliberately misleads you and you buy a product based on features you were assured it had, but mislead you have cause for redress. We have advertising standards for a reason. It's shocking that politicians who will run the country are held to a lower standard than car salesmen.
a 14 day cooling off period on elections or referendums sounds ideal.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:22 PM   #2644
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Who do you think city in NZ was named after?
Not a who, what?

Wellington is named after a type of boot that is universally known in NZ as gumboots, but early settlers thought "Gumboot" didn't sound Parliamentary enough, so they went with what Poms call them.

I'd be confident well under 10% of Kiwis know who Arthur Wellesley was, or that the capital was named after his conferred title.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:45 PM   #2645
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I disagree, if a salesman or advertiser deliberately misleads you and you buy a product based on features you were assured it had, but mislead you have cause for redress. We have advertising standards for a reason. It's shocking that politicians who will run the country are held to a lower standard than car salesmen.
When that information is freely available to anyone who bothers to look for it there is really no excuse for believing obvious lies rather than do so.

No-one who isn't already prejudiced against "foreigners" would believe the bendy bananas BS, or any of the other nonsense Leave voters swallowed whole without making the slightest effort to check was actually true.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:02 PM   #2646
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Thanks for that. My medications are on that list. If I abruptly stop posting after a no-deal Brexit, I guess you'll all know why...

ETA: Mind you, it's already cost a significant chunk of my income and my wife's career so why not?
I'm really sorry to hear that.

The "no possible downside, only a significant upside" Brexiteers need to hear this kind of thing (not that they'd likely care) to understand the damage that their little "adventure" is already causing.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:19 PM   #2647
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm really sorry to hear that.



The "no possible downside, only a significant upside" Brexiteers need to hear this kind of thing (not that they'd likely care) to understand the damage that their little "adventure" is already causing.
I suspect many will consider such sacrifices to be worth it to be "free" of the EU.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:20 PM   #2648
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
When that information is freely available to anyone who bothers to look for it there is really no excuse for believing obvious lies rather than do so.

No-one who isn't already prejudiced against "foreigners" would believe the bendy bananas BS, or any of the other nonsense Leave voters swallowed whole without making the slightest effort to check was actually true.
Yes, they really do stretch the credulity of their readers. Daddy Don used to spend about half of our weekly telephone conversation railing about things he'd read in the Daily Telegraph. Almost without exception I was able to show that they were either complete nonsense or were a gross misinterpretation of reality. Not every octogenarian has their own personal fact-checker. "Fortunately" his dementia has progressed so he no longer reads the paper. Unfortunately he also can no longer use a phone, even with the assistance of the lovely ladies in his care home .
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:31 PM   #2649
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect many will consider such sacrifices to be worth it to be "free" of the EU.
......especially if those negative consequences happen to other people. I suspect it may be different if they lose their own job.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:19 AM   #2650
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One of the key drivers for Brexit was opposition to (non-white) immigration.

One of the things that inflated non-EU immigration was non-EU students staying after their course was complete. To counter this Theresa May's government introduced rules to prevent this.

The current government is proposing to reverse this (though that's probably a moot point given prorogation) and allow students to stay on for up to two years to find a job.

Personally I don't have a problem with this, but it's interesting that we;re taking control of our borders and non-EU immigration by proposing to open things up:

Quote:
International students will be allowed to stay in the UK for two years after graduation to find a job, under new proposals announced by the Home Office.

The move reverses a decision made in 2012 by then-Home Secretary Theresa May that forced overseas students to leave four months after finishing a degree.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the change would see students "unlock their potential" and begin careers in the UK.

But campaign group Migration Watch called it a "retrograde" step.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49655719

If Migration Watch aren't keen then I'd think it's a good thing.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:35 AM   #2651
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Unsurprisingly, the Labour Party is tearing itself apart over Brexit (it's like the early 80's all over again where extremism and infighting kept Labour unelectable for a couple of decades).

Quote:
Labour must prioritise reversing Brexit through another referendum, over winning power in a general election, its deputy leader Tom Watson is to say.

He will warn that a snap election before the end of the year may fail to resolve the current deadlock.

Putting himself at odds with Jeremy Corbyn, he will say there is "no such thing as a good Brexit deal" and Labour must campaign unequivocally to remain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49657006

Now that's a policy I could get behind and which would get me to return to the Labour electoral fold.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:37 AM   #2652
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
One of the key drivers for Brexit was opposition to (non-white) immigration.

One of the things that inflated non-EU immigration was non-EU students staying after their course was complete. To counter this Theresa May's government introduced rules to prevent this.

The current government is proposing to reverse this (though that's probably a moot point given prorogation) and allow students to stay on for up to two years to find a job.

Personally I don't have a problem with this, but it's interesting that we;re taking control of our borders and non-EU immigration by proposing to open things up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49655719

If Migration Watch aren't keen then I'd think it's a good thing.
Well, no-deal is truly off the table then. There will be no way to blame the EU for all the brown people unless there is a Brexit deal of some sort.

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Old 11th September 2019, 12:41 AM   #2653
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Well, no-deal is truly off the table then. There will be no way to blame the EU for all the brown people unless there is a Brexit deal of some sort.

McHrozni
I disagree, a no deal is still very much on the table but there is also a need for immigrant labour in the UK. IMO for the architects of Brexit, this was nothing to do with immigration, indeed immigration is a key component of the low cost, low tax, low regulation, low employment rights, low benefits economy that they're looking to create.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:46 AM   #2654
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree, a no deal is still very much on the table but there is also a need for immigrant labour in the UK. IMO for the architects of Brexit, this was nothing to do with immigration, indeed immigration is a key component of the low cost, low tax, low regulation, low employment rights, low benefits economy that they're looking to create.
Yeah. But they still need someone to blame for the failure to eject brown people out. If not the EU, who?

EU is mentioning the NI-only backstop as an option. We'll see how that goes down if and when it goes down in Parliament. BJ opposes it, but he's becoming increasingly irrelevant.

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Old 11th September 2019, 01:04 AM   #2655
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah. But they still need someone to blame for the failure to eject brown people out. If not the EU, who?
Doesn't matter, once Brexit has happened it's mission accomplished. At that stage it doesn't matter how many brown people there are in the country, we've got control over our borders and that's an end to it

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
EU is mentioning the NI-only backstop as an option. We'll see how that goes down if and when it goes down in Parliament. BJ opposes it, but he's becoming increasingly irrelevant.

McHrozni
Wasn't that the EU's original suggestion which the UK rejected (because of the DUP and various "unionist" Tories) ?
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:12 AM   #2656
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
......especially if those negative consequences happen to other people. I suspect it may be different if they lose their own job.
Yeah, it's not likely to affect Jacob Rees-Mogg, as he moved his money into Ireland - back into the EU.

I hope managers and directors who have to downsize due to Brexit do the decent thing and fire the Leave voters first.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:29 AM   #2657
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I assure you I am not at all sanguine about the fact that so many people can't be bothered to fulfil their most basic responsibilities as citizens of a democracy. I'm saying I blame them, not the people who take advantage of their wilful ignorance, for the consequences.
It's not a zero-sum game. Why not blame both?
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:08 AM   #2658
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
When that information is freely available to anyone who bothers to look for it there is really no excuse for believing obvious lies rather than do so.
Most false advertising claims, crystal healing scams, psychic mediums, etc., can be discredited with a simple google search. That doesn't exculpate the people profiting from those scams.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:10 AM   #2659
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
One of the key drivers for Brexit was opposition to (non-white) immigration.

One of the things that inflated non-EU immigration was non-EU students staying after their course was complete. To counter this Theresa May's government introduced rules to prevent this.

The current government is proposing to reverse this (though that's probably a moot point given prorogation) and allow students to stay on for up to two years to find a job.

Personally I don't have a problem with this, but it's interesting that we;re taking control of our borders and non-EU immigration by proposing to open things up:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49655719

If Migration Watch aren't keen then I'd think it's a good thing.
It's almost like immigration can be good for a country.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:13 AM   #2660
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Breaking news: In Scotland, the Court of Session rules proroguing Parliament was unlawful. Now it goes to the UK Supreme Court.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:18 AM   #2661
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's almost like immigration can be good for a country.
For the architects of Brexit, I'm pretty sure that immigration control (aka keeping the darkies out) was just a tool to generate support for Brexit, not an outcome they actually wanted to see come to pass.

Then again, a large immigrant population who are unsure or uncertain about their immigration status is certainly a valuable resource for someone seeking to drive down employment costs and to remove workers' rights.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:22 AM   #2662
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Breaking news: In Scotland, the Court of Session rules proroguing Parliament was unlawful. Now it goes to the UK Supreme Court.
Sadly far too late. Perhaps maybe the government might get a light slap on the the wrist but they'll have likely achieved their objective of a no-deal Brexit in the meantime.

Dominic Cummings doesn't give a stuff about Boris Johnson's Prime Ministerial career, the Conservative Party or anything else apart from getting his no deal through to satisfy his paymasters.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:24 AM   #2663
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sadly far too late. Perhaps maybe the government might get a light slap on the the wrist but they'll have likely achieved their objective of a no-deal Brexit in the meantime.
Hm, how?

BJ will be forced to send the letter, or else EU might act as though it recieved the letter and consider him in breach of British constitutional norms. Article 50 requires following those.

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:27 AM   #2664
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's not a zero-sum game. Why not blame both?
OK.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:28 AM   #2665
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Doesn't matter, once Brexit has happened it's mission accomplished. At that stage it doesn't matter how many brown people there are in the country, we've got control over our borders and that's an end to it
The storm of feces is coming and the Brexiteers will need a scapegoat.

Granted, they might not be looking that far out. That's a possibility.

Quote:
Wasn't that the EU's original suggestion which the UK rejected (because of the DUP and various "unionist" Tories) ?
Yup. But the government no longer needs the DUP for their majority.

Belay that. The government no longer has the majority even with DUP, so dumping them doesn't really make the matters any worse. The dice might as well be rolled one more time, especially if the EU says "non" to another extension. This is also a change the EU would agree to to avoid a no deal Brexit, perhaps even allowing Boris to claim some sort of victory over the EU, I don't know. BJ ruled it out, which to me indicates it's going to be voted on at least.

Twice, if it doesn't pass the first time and the pattern with early election holds.

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:33 AM   #2666
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree, a no deal is still very much on the table but there is also a need for immigrant labour in the UK. IMO for the architects of Brexit, this was nothing to do with immigration, indeed immigration is a key component of the low cost, low tax, low regulation, low employment rights, low benefits economy that they're looking to create.
The Don:
I am amazed you see no deal on the table, there is no chance.
Amongst expats here they see Brexit as dead, unlikely to happen.

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:38 AM   #2667
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hm, how?
Personally I don't know, but Dominic Cummings will be working hard to find ways to try to ensure that a no-deal Brexit is delivered.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
BJ will be forced to send the letter, or else EU might act as though it recieved the letter and consider him in breach of British constitutional norms. Article 50 requires following those.

McHrozni
The EU is free to do whatever it pleases but unless the UK Parliament agrees to an alternative positive course of action, the UK leaves with no deal on 31 October.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:39 AM   #2668
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Breaking news: In Scotland, the Court of Session rules proroguing Parliament was unlawful. Now it goes to the UK Supreme Court.
Interesting times. The decision says the prorogation is null so presumably that means Parliament was in effect never prorogued and should be sitting today not withstanding an appeal later.

How this plays out practically I have no idea.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:39 AM   #2669
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The Don:
I am amazed you see no deal on the table, there is no chance.
It's still the default, and therefore most likely, outcome. The UK Parliament has not passed legislation to change that.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:40 AM   #2670
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The Don:
I am amazed you see no deal on the table, there is no chance.
If no deal isn't on the table, that leaves only, revoke art 50, or an actual deal.

What do you think will happen?
And if there's a deal. What will it contain? (broadly).
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:40 AM   #2671
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sadly far too late. Perhaps maybe the government might get a light slap on the the wrist but they'll have likely achieved their objective of a no-deal Brexit in the meantime.

Dominic Cummings doesn't give a stuff about Boris Johnson's Prime Ministerial career, the Conservative Party or anything else apart from getting his no deal through to satisfy his paymasters.
They will have to recall Parliament so it's not too late.

And presumably the first order of business should be to cancel the recess for conferences.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:42 AM   #2672
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The storm of feces is coming and the Brexiteers will need a scapegoat.

Granted, they might not be looking that far out. That's a possibility.



Yup. But the government no longer needs the DUP for their majority.

Belay that. The government no longer has the majority even with DUP, so dumping them doesn't really make the matters any worse. The dice might as well be rolled one more time, especially if the EU says "non" to another extension. This is also a change the EU would agree to to avoid a no deal Brexit, perhaps even allowing Boris to claim some sort of victory over the EU, I don't know. BJ ruled it out, which to me indicates it's going to be voted on at least.

Twice, if it doesn't pass the first time and the pattern with early election holds.

McHrozni
I think the Tories would have to be careful because the likelihood is that they may well need the DUP following any future election so throwing them under the bus for a short term win might not be a good idea. Although I would love it if they did, so the government isn't beholden to a handful of extremist idiots... but then they would likely throw their hat in with the Brexit Party so that's out of the frying pan...

ETA: I'm not sure what a NI backstop gains you anyway. Will the ERG support it? It doesn't solve any of the problems for the opposition so why would they change their mind? In fact an all UK backstop is probably preferable for them.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:45 AM   #2673
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The EU is free to do whatever it pleases but unless the UK Parliament agrees to an alternative positive course of action, the UK leaves with no deal on 31 October.
They did just that. The Parliament legislated the PM needs to ask for another extension until the end of January, if EU sets a different date (or asks for preconditions) Parliament has two (sitting?) days to either accept or reject it. The bill got royal assent just before prorogation.

Therefore if EU agrees to the extension, or at least doesn't reject it outright, UK looks to be Bremaining for a little longer still.

It's not really what one might want, but if EU asks for "either referendum or another general election", Parliament intends to go for the latter anyway, so that should be fine.

McHrozni
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:47 AM   #2674
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's still the default, and therefore most likely, outcome. The UK Parliament has not passed legislation to change that.
Updating Ladbrokes, who I think you consider dedicated followers of fashion, No deal went from 1.72 to 4 (decimal), I agree, and I was looking at 1.72 thinking I would offer it myself.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:48 AM   #2675
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think the Tories would have to be careful because the likelihood is that they may well need the DUP following any future election so throwing them under the bus for a short term win might not be a good idea. Although I would love it if they did, so the government isn't beholden to a handful of extremist idiots... but then they would likely throw their hat in with the Brexit Party so that's out of the frying pan...
Who said anything about Tories pushing for the vote? All that is needed is someone in the HoC to ask for a vote and Bercow granting it. If the alternative is no deal Brexit it might pass. Chances may be stacked against it, but there is a nonzero chance it would work.

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ETA: I'm not sure what a NI backstop gains you anyway. Will the ERG support it? It doesn't solve any of the problems for the opposition so why would they change their mind? In fact an all UK backstop is probably preferable for them.
It allows UK (sans NI) to have their own independent trade policy. Plus a UK-wide customs union membership akin to the relationship with Turkey is a kind of arrangement that doesn't require triggering of the backstop.

Just so we're all on the same page, backstop is not intended to be used. It's there to ensure Brexiteer sole tactics - wait it out - works against them. That's why it's so controversial for them.

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:49 AM   #2676
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Boris Johnson.... sacked twice for lying in previous jobs, now found in court to have lied to the Queen in pretty much his first act as PM.

Betty can't be very happy about that. Off with his head!
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:55 AM   #2677
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Who said anything about Tories pushing for the vote? All that is needed is someone in the HoC to ask for a vote and Bercow granting it. If the alternative is no deal Brexit it might pass. Chances may be stacked against it, but there is a nonzero chance it would work.
Well I think they could bring back the same agreement now and have about the same chance it might work. It wouldn't need the Tories to push for the vote but it would need the Government to renegotiate the WA to include this. And I don't see the opposition pushing for it because it doesn't get them any closer to what they want.

Quote:

It allows UK (sans NI) to have their own independent trade policy. Plus a UK-wide customs union membership akin to the relationship with Turkey is a kind of arrangement that doesn't require triggering of the backstop.

Just so we're all on the same page, backstop is not intended to be used. It's there to ensure Brexiteer sole tactics - wait it out - works against them. That's why it's so controversial for them.

McHrozni
As far as I recall Labour didn't really have much problem with the WA as it stands, but were more concerned with the future arrangements. They wanted some kind of magical customs union that didn't stop them doing all the things a customs union actually does stop them doing.

If they bring back the deal now you may get some defectors but enough to get the deal to pass? Not sure. And after the Brexiteers in government branding it a surrender I don't see how they go forward from there in supporting it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:56 AM   #2678
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hm, how?



BJ will be forced to send the letter, or else EU might act as though it recieved the letter and consider him in breach of British constitutional norms. Article 50 requires following those.



McHrozni
That's an internal UK issue, the EU will deal with what the government of the UK actually does. If there is no agreement for a further delay we leave 31st October. It will be a done deal.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:58 AM   #2679
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Interesting times. The decision says the prorogation is null so presumably that means Parliament was in effect never prorogued and should be sitting today not withstanding an appeal later.



How this plays out practically I have no idea.
Very surprised if this isn't rejected by the Supreme Court, prorogation is a matter for parliament not the judiciary.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:01 AM   #2680
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
If no deal isn't on the table, that leaves only, revoke art 50, or an actual deal.



What do you think will happen?

And if there's a deal. What will it contain? (broadly).
Unless Johnson and his ilk are hit by a meteorite or acquire altruism, empathy and rationality (and I know which is by far the more likely) we will leave 31st October with no deal.

If I had a hat I'd really like to be eating it come 1st November when we are still part of the EU, sadly I won't be enjoying that delicacy.
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