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Old 14th September 2019, 04:40 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess that's where we differ.

I'd serve guests something that I think they might enjoy and be able to eat. From time to time I've had to accommodate a range of religious and dietary restrictions and a vegetarian or vegan meal may be the best way of doing that and still deliver something that's delicious.

Then again I'm not the kind of "my house, my rules" kind of person that would rather make a point than make his guests feel comfortable.
indeed.
I was asked for the recipe of my main dish by the veggie we accommodated and two of the carnivores that night.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:59 PM   #202
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Bacon cheeseburger. I got autocorrected again.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:03 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Bacon cheeseburger. I got autocorrected auto-corrected again.
...
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:24 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Do you eat any processed foods, such as breakfast cereal?
No, I don't.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:25 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post

No dietary source that you know of.
Correct. And I've given it a lot of thought. Any suggestions for a source I've overlooked are appreciated.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:59 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Correct. And I've given it a lot of thought. Any suggestions for a source I've overlooked are appreciated.
The biota that makes B12 live in the colon. It's a water soluble vitamin. The colon absorbs water. Veggers eat a lot of fiber to feed that biota. And YES, colons do adsorb stuff, like coffee enemas (Steve McQueen) or migraine medications, and there are other medications delivered by suppository. So I wouldn't believe that colonic B12 is not the source without modern and specific study.

Unless copraphagy is another of your idiosyncrasys ?
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:21 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Not just meat availability (although I bet few people would find caveman cuisine palatable), but food availability.

Every time this subject comes up, there is an attempt to point to evolution as though it is the ultimate arbiter of what humans ought to eat today.

It is essentially pseudoscience.
It's not completely pseudoscience. If I found an animal that I'd never seen before and wanted to raise it, I might take a look at what other members of it's species are eating in the wild in order to find what a healthy diet to feed it would be. Seems like a good starting point.

The pseudoscience is the idea that we should just stop there, as though we haven't done any more science with respect to human diet and nutrition.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:28 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nutrition requires balance and moderation. Just like almost everything else in life. Why this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp I will never understand.
Interesting. How much animal product consumed, as a pct of total daily calories, do you think is required to achieve nutritional "balance"?
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:55 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Interesting. How much animal product consumed, as a pct of total daily calories, do you think is required to achieve nutritional "balance"?
Which animal?

Fish, poultry, red meat?

And how is a balanced diet based on calories
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:18 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which animal?
Any animals. The implication is that for a diet to be "balanced" it requires animal products. I'd like to know how much satisfies that requirement.

Quote:
And how is a balanced diet based on calories
How is it not?
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:27 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Any animals. The implication is that for a diet to be "balanced" it requires animal products. I'd like to know how much satisfies that requirement.



How is it not?
Calories mean jack to a balanced diet.

Red meat like beef is good as it contains iron, fish omega 3, poultry (putting eggs aside as it is obvious) carbs.

And that is just the obvious ones

Then you have vitamins from things like fruit, the thingys in grains I can't remember that make you poo proper.
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:34 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Calories mean jack to a balanced diet.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.



Quote:
Red meat like beef is good as it contains iron, fish omega 3...
How much red meat needs to be added to a Vegan diet to make it "balanced"?
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:39 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.





How much red meat needs to be added to a Vegan diet to make it "balanced"?
I meant not everything is based on calories for a balanced diet

E.g Google scurvy


Presumably a shed load of supplements
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:43 PM   #214
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As a backward aside.

Personally had a blood test a while ago as I was feeling knackered all the time and they found I was low folic acid.

Had more veggies and supplements for a month, all normal.

A balanced diet is a broad brush.
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:03 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...
Red meat like beef is good as it contains iron, fish omega 3, poultry (putting eggs aside as it is obvious) carbs....
Carbs in chicken meat?
WTF do you Kiwis feed chickens with to produce carbs in their meat?
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:08 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Carbs in chicken meat?
WTF do you Kiwis feed chickens with to produce carbs in their meat?
Fair call

Made a hash of that one

Got my nutrients mixed.

It has whatever the thing is that makes athletes eat loads of it.
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:13 AM   #217
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Protein

Got there in the end
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:14 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
No, I don't.
You're getting it from somewhere. If you fancy listing your typical diet in some detail it would help, otherwise people are just guessing. Soy milk?

The point is that even vegan organisations recommend B12 supplements and it's hard to accept that you're a biological freak for whom nutritional science simply doesn't apply.
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #219
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Related web page https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2006/1/awsi/Page "Do vegetarians live longer?"

Veggers, do read past few paragraphs to
Quote:
Longevity studies of vegetarians produce conflicting data. Some studies do not show that vegetarians live significantly longer.25,29 Two studies of people who consumed very little meat showed an average life-span increase of 3.6 years.39 A huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women.40 These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.
Then,
Quote:
A fascinating paper recently published in the journal Mechanisms of Aging and Development presents an entirely new theory to explain why vegetarians do not live longer.41 It turns out that those who avoid eating beef suffer a deficiency of a nutrient (carnosine) that is critical to preventing lethal glycation reactions in the body.

For the benefit of new members, glycation can be defined as the toxic binding of glucose to the body’s proteins. Glycation alters the body’s proteins and renders them non-functional. While wrinkled skin is the first outward appearance of glycation, most degenerative diseases are affected in one way or another by pathological glycation reactions.

Diabetics suffer from accelerated glycation that contributes to the secondary diseases that result in premature death.42,43 For instance, glycation’s destructive effect on the arterial system results in a loss of elasticity, hypertension, and atherosclerosis.44-47 Glycation is involved in disorders as diverse as cataract, cancer, and Alzheimer’s disease.48-57

Unless aggressive steps are taken, many aging adults will suffer the devastating effects of glycation to proteins throughout their bodies. This fact was established recently when it was shown that even healthy people with slightly elevated glycation levels are at higher risk for heart attack.

Vegetarians have higher levels of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) in their blood compared to those who eat meat.58,59 This is because an exclusively vegetarian diet would lack carnosine, nature’s most potent anti-glycating agent.
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:00 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Not just meat availability (although I bet few people would find caveman cuisine palatable), but food availability.

Every time this subject comes up, there is an attempt to point to evolution as though it is the ultimate arbiter of what humans ought to eat today.

It is essentially pseudoscience.
Sorry for the late reaction, but I find this interesting. Genus Homo have been omnivorous for millions of years, since at least Homo Erectus. Even if dietary science is a work in progress, it's obvious that we're adapted to eating meat. We have the teeth and the gut for it. Grain and legumes are a very recent addition to the human diet, and are not always well-tolerated. Same with dairy.

Whatever you think we should do, please don't misrepresent what we have done.

It's not pseudoscience to say that we're naturally omnivores; it's simple fact. By all means, though, feel free to propose a plan to establish an alternative, while understanding that it could take at least a few hundred thousand years to make it work.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:34 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You're getting it from somewhere. If you fancy listing your typical diet in some detail it would help, otherwise people are just guessing. Soy milk?

The point is that even vegan organisations recommend B12 supplements and it's hard to accept that you're a biological freak for whom nutritional science simply doesn't apply.
No, I don't consume soy milk or any processed foods. I eat about 3000 calories (I'm an athlete) of raw fruit each day and a large quantity of green vegetables, mainly lettuce and celery, with small amounts of nuts, seeds, and avocados. I eat a lot of tomatoes and cucumbers. I don't eat any legumes or grains. I've eaten this way for many years and have posted about it here going way back, years ago.
I certainly agree that I'm not a biological freak for whom nutritional science doesn't apply. Yet somehow I'm not B12 deficient.

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Old 18th September 2019, 09:39 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The biota that makes B12 live in the colon. It's a water soluble vitamin. The colon absorbs water. Veggers eat a lot of fiber to feed that biota. And YES, colons do adsorb stuff, like coffee enemas (Steve McQueen) or migraine medications, and there are other medications delivered by suppository. So I wouldn't believe that colonic B12 is not the source without modern and specific study.

Unless copraphagy is another of your idiosyncrasys ?
No, copraphagy isn't something I have any interest in trying. I think you're correct, that B12 is absorbable in the way you describe, and that this is very likely a viable B12 source for me as well as for other healthy people. However, some vegans do run into problems without an external B12 source, so I understand the recommendations for all vegans to supplement. But don't happen to bother with it since my levels have always been healthy even after 25 years.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:42 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Sorry for the late reaction, but I find this interesting. Genus Homo have been omnivorous for millions of years, since at least Homo Erectus. Even if dietary science is a work in progress, it's obvious that we're adapted to eating meat. We have the teeth and the gut for it. Grain and legumes are a very recent addition to the human diet, and are not always well-tolerated. Same with dairy.

Whatever you think we should do, please don't misrepresent what we have done.

It's not pseudoscience to say that we're naturally omnivores; it's simple fact. By all means, though, feel free to propose a plan to establish an alternative, while understanding that it could take at least a few hundred thousand years to make it work.
I haven't misrepresented anything at all.

I don't deny that we are adapted to eat meat; I'm simply pointing out that evolution is not an ultimate arbiter of what we should do. That goes for many arguably adaptive traits that we try to avoid such as overeating, rape, racism - or other forms of them-and-us categorizing, certain cognitive biases that make sense in a hunter-gatherer society but less so in the modern age, etc...
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:57 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I haven't misrepresented anything at all.

I don't deny that we are adapted to eat meat; I'm simply pointing out that evolution is not an ultimate arbiter of what we should do. That goes for many arguably adaptive traits that we try to avoid such as overeating, rape, racism - or other forms of them-and-us categorizing, certain cognitive biases that make sense in a hunter-gatherer society but less so in the modern age, etc...
Sure, but understanding our evolutionary history can offer insight into our biology, including what sort of diet is likely to be best from a health perspective.

It's certainly not the last word on it, and it's certainly not impossible to improve on our ancestral diet(s)*, but it's not pseudoscience to look to our evolutionary history for some insight on this question.

*That "s" is an important point, as our ancestors ate different diets at different times and places. That we are omnivores whose diet has been influenced both by environment an culture makes questions about the diets of our ancestors even more complicated.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:12 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I haven't misrepresented anything at all.

I don't deny that we are adapted to eat meat; I'm simply pointing out that evolution is not an ultimate arbiter of what we should do.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It's certainly not the last word on it, and it's certainly not impossible to improve on our ancestral diet(s)*,
It sounds like we are in agreement.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
but it's not pseudoscience to look to our evolutionary history for some insight on this question.
I didn't say it was. I said it was pseudoscience to say:

Look, we have evolved to eat this, therefore we must eat this. Evolution tells us we must. It is the ultimate arbiter!

And we have some examples of this pseudoscience such as the paleo diet which takes the premise - this is what we ate before we started up with those pesky grains and dairy products therefore we ought not to eat grains and dairy products, etc... and paleo must be optimal for health.

Really, and while we're at it, why not shun modern medicine and rely on "natural" remedies, and let's do away with hospitals and low infant mortality and literacy, and all other forms of science including modern nutritional science.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:19 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I didn't say it was. I said it was pseudoscience to say:

Look, we have evolved to eat this, therefore we must eat this. Evolution tells us we must. It is the ultimate arbiter!
Yep, I agree with you about that.

Quote:
And we have some examples of this pseudoscience such as the paleo diet which takes the premise - this is what we ate before we started up with those pesky grains and dairy products therefore we ought not to eat grains and dairy products, etc... and paleo must be optimal for health.
I think paleo diets take the argument further than it's worth, but as a rule of thumb "eat what your ancestors ate" is probably useful. The problem is that they had constraints in availability so we can certainly improve on those ancestral diets: As you say it shouldn't end there.

Quote:
Really, and while we're at it, why not shun modern medicine and rely on "natural" remedies, and let's do away with hospitals and low infant mortality and literacy, and all other forms of science including modern nutritional science.

Sure, I understand and agree with that point. But I do think that a lot of questions of nutrition and diet are complicated enough that precise answers are hard to come by and so looking at our evolutionary history can offer insight in the meantime*.

*ETA: by "in the meantime" I mean while and until better controlled studies on diet are done.
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Old 21st September 2019, 10:47 AM   #227
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I’ve read extensively about the Paleo diet and what strikes me is that it’s mostly all about diet. IOW “eat like ancient hunter-gatherers” and you’ll be healthier. But almost no mention is given to all the other things that our evolutionary ancestors did. For example hard physical labor -those hunter-gatherers actually had to, you know, hunt and gather! They expended way more calories than we ever do and worked their muscles in ways we simply don’t need to. They also pretty much lived outside, which means they got more sun exposure and they got better quality air. I think they probably got a hell of a lot more rest than we do, too. They certainly didn’t spend their time vegetating in front of screens.

I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to go back in time for diet/lifestyle tips. We have a different set of challenges which probably necessitate a different kind of diet/lifestyle. I mean, all of us, ancient and modern, are human and we have similar baseline needs. Those are well understood at this point so what’s important is for each person to adopt a diet that fits their particular lifestyle needs.
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Old 21st September 2019, 11:37 AM   #228
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Excellent points, but they don't negate the fact that single ingredient natural foods; meat, eggs, vegetables, nuts and fruit will lead to better health than the processed grains ( grass seeds), sugar and industrial oils that comprise the bigger part of the SAD ( standard American diet)..

I like cheese.. Don't care for milk. But if I did, why does it have to be fortified? It seems to work just fine as it is for baby cows..
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Old 22nd September 2019, 03:26 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Related web page https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2006/1/awsi/Page "Do vegetarians live longer?"

Veggers, do read past few paragraphs to

Then,
That's a completely unproven theory with very little evidence to back it up at this point. Carnosine is produced by the human body and when carnosine is ingested it doesn't elevate measurable levels very significantly. There is certainly no RDA for carnosine, meaning it isn't recognized as a having a required consumption for human health and survival. I find that there's just as much anti-vegan woo as pro-vegan woo.

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Old 22nd September 2019, 04:27 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
That's a completely unproven theory with very little evidence to back it up at this point. Carnosine is produced by the human body and when carnosine is ingested it doesn't elevate measurable levels very significantly. There is certainly no RDA for carnosine, meaning it is certainly not recognized as a having a required consumption for human health and survival. I find that there's just as much anti-vegan woo as pro-vegan woo.
There is sooo much variability in human genotype phenotype (every gene SNP has 4 possibilities) that EVERYBODY has different nutritional needs. Search "precision medicine". I guess I'd have to look and see which enzyme it is that makes carnosine, which gene encodes for that enzyme, which SNPs can be pathogenic for that gene.

I'm T2 diabetic, 40 years now. I eat beef. Care givers are always surprised by how good of a shape I am in. No whittling on my feet, not blind, ... Carnosine?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 04:29 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
There is sooo much variability in human genotype phenotype (every gene SNP has 4 possibilities) that EVERYBODY has different nutritional needs. Search "precision medicine". I guess I'd have to look and see which enzyme it is that makes carnosine, which gene encodes for that enzyme, which SNPs can be pathogenic for that gene.

I'm T2 diabetic, 40 years now. I eat beef. Care givers are always surprised by how good of a shape I am in. No whittling on my feet, not blind, ... Carnosine?
Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not, since there are thousands of diabetics who eat plenty of beef yet still suffer from the ailments you've been fortunate enough to avoid.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 05:27 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not, since there are thousands of diabetics who eat plenty of beef yet still suffer from the ailments you've been fortunate enough to avoid.
And the difference will show in a big study- like in my link. More so than in your 'common knowledge'.

Hmm, try <diabetics carnosine study >?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 05:34 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
There is sooo much variability in human genotype phenotype (every gene SNP has 4 possibilities) that EVERYBODY has different nutritional needs. Search "precision medicine". I guess I'd have to look and see which enzyme it is that makes carnosine, which gene encodes for that enzyme, which SNPs can be pathogenic for that gene.
...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23124893 Several genes involved, though enough beta-alinine will suffice if you have good genes. Now, what are beta-alinine veggie sources?

eta: looks like nuts and seeds. But I didn't look for how common the variants are for those genes. Some variants hit 25-40%. My diabetes IRS1 (insulin receptor substrate #1) 'bad'gene is in 40 %. My Benedryl "zonks me" gene is in 15%, and affects foods too. . Kind of blows the RDA charts out of the water. It's called Nutrigenomics, or Precision Medicine. [/eta]

eta II, I can feel the difference when I've been eating meat, probably subconscious knowledge. So, no, not everybody has the proper Vegan Gene. And I think some of the supplement doses are decided by calories out, not calories in. Waeight stable at 1800 calories, no supplement needed. Losing weight at 5-10 lbs/week because you are burning 8,000/day on 2,500 calories, supplements needed. Like the weight lifetrs/body builders.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 05:37 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And the difference will show in a big study- like in my link. More so than in your 'common knowledge'.

Hmm, try <diabetics carnosine study >?
First hit, a meta study total 309 subjects https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.or...lement_1/55-LB

You can guess why I posted it here.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:44 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think paleo diets take the argument further than it's worth, but as a rule of thumb "eat what your ancestors ate" is probably useful. The problem is that they had constraints in availability so we can certainly improve on those ancestral diets: As you say it shouldn't end there.
And what ancestors exactly? If we're talking prior to Neolithic (ie prior to agriculture) we've got a huge mix of Paleolithic diets out there.

The other complication is that the paleo books I've read don't actually recommend we eat what our Paleolithic ancestors ate. Just a made up cartoon version a la Flintstones. And would it matter? Our ancestors seem to have been unhealthy and malnourished, maybe we should take that as a hint that their diets were opportunistic and desperate, not ideal even for them.

There is huge variation, by region. My ancestors were European, so prior to cultivation, they mostly ate tubers. Europeans were omnivores, heavy on starchy vegetables. Meat was a 'sometimes food'. How do we know this? One word: coprolite. Fossilized poop. We don't need to interpret cave art to know what they actually ate. Starchy veggies and a bit of everything else.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:16 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
[edit for brevity...]Starchy veggies and a bit of everything else.
Recent blog post on the topic:

[Cancer epidemiology points toward making your low-carb diet a predominantly plant-based one]
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Old 24th September 2019, 03:54 PM   #237
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While I have the attention of a bunch of Veggers, lets invert the discussion. What nutrients are lacking in The Usual American Diet that need to come from plants? Aren't A D E in livers? C is easy to get, potatoes are loaded with it. There's phytos and other antioxidants, but they haven;t been proven of benefit. EFAs are in fish or lard (HUGE source of mono- and poly-) So ???
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:05 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
While I have the attention of a bunch of Veggers, lets invert the discussion. What nutrients are lacking in The Usual American Diet that need to come from plants? Aren't A D E in livers? C is easy to get, potatoes are loaded with it. There's phytos and other antioxidants, but they haven;t been proven of benefit. EFAs are in fish or lard (HUGE source of mono- and poly-) So ???
From the President's Council on Sports, Fitness & Nutrition

Nutrition
  • Typical American diets exceed the recommended intake levels or limits in four categories: calories from solid fats and added sugars; refined grains; sodium; and saturated fat.
  • Americans eat less than the recommended amounts of vegetables, fruits, whole-grains, dairy products, and oils.
  • About 90% of Americans eat more sodium than is recommended for a healthy diet.
    Reducing the sodium Americans eat by 1,200mg per day on could save up to $20 billion a year in medical costs.
  • Food available for consumption increased in all major food categories from 1970 to 2008. Average daily calories per person in the marketplace increased approximately 600 calories.
  • Since the 1970s, the number of fast food restaurants has more than doubled.
  • More than 23 million Americans, including 6.5 million children, live in food deserts – areas that are more than a mile away from a supermarket.
  • In 2008, an estimated 49.1 million people, including 16.7 million children, experienced food insecurity (limited availability to safe and nutritionally adequate foods) multiple times throughout the year.
  • In 2013, residents of the following states were most likely to report eating at least five servings of vegetables four or more days per week: Vermont (68.7%), Montana (63.0%) and Washington (61.8%). The least likely were Oklahoma (52.3%), Louisiana (53.3%) and Missouri (53.8%). The national average for regular produce consumption is 57.7%.
  • Empty calories from added sugars and solid fats contribute to 40% of total daily calories for 2–18 year olds and half of these empty calories come from six sources: soda, fruit drinks, dairy desserts, grain desserts, pizza, and whole milk.
  • US adults consume an average of 3,400 mg/day [of sodium], well above the current federal guideline of less than 2,300 mg daily.
  • Food safety awareness goes hand-in-hand with nutrition education. In the United States, food-borne agents affect 1 out of 6 individuals and cause approximately 48 million illnesses, 128,000 hospitalizations, and 3,000 deaths each year.
  • US per capita consumption of total fat increased from approximately 57 pounds in 1980 to 78 pounds in 2009 with the highest consumption being 85 pounds in 2005.
  • The US percentage of food-insecure households, those with limited or uncertain ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways, rose from 11% to 15% between 2005 and 2009.
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Old 25th September 2019, 04:56 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Cut & Pastola.
I was expecting something to compare with the necessity of vegans to supplement B12. Like "meat eaters MUST eat rutabaga peels for the rutans".

For two reasons: the sake of this discussion, and maybe I need some particular supplementation.

But then there is the Inuit all-animal diet....
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Old 25th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
While I have the attention of a bunch of Veggers, lets invert the discussion. What nutrients are lacking in The Usual American Diet that need to come from plants? Aren't A D E in livers? C is easy to get, potatoes are loaded with it. There's phytos and other antioxidants, but they haven;t been proven of benefit. EFAs are in fish or lard (HUGE source of mono- and poly-) So ???
Probably nothing nowadays. There used to be, but government regulations created a supplementation environment to address common shortcomings. eg: vitamin D added to dairy. Fluoride in water. Lots of foods have the nutrition blasted out of them, but restored from synthetic supplementation (fruit juices like Sunny D are an example of destroying nutrients and reintroducing them from synthetic sources)

So, it's not that the typical American diet doesn't carry deficiencies so much as we learned from epidemics and government responded with programs. Veganism is not a large enough population segment to get the same public support for government intervening supplementation programs, they're more 'on their own' versus the general population which is reliant on government protection. (and probably very much unaware of it)


HOWEVER, I also warn against what's called a 'nutritionism' approach, which is a 'marketing' approach rather than a scientific approach. Breaking down foods into the nutrients we know about, and ignoring the fact that we're probably only aware of 1% of what elements of foods are used by the body, and how.

In critical thinking, this is known as an 'availability bias' or 'availability heuristic.'

The nutrients involved are an avenue of study. The fact is that it's healthier for some reason, we will learn more as we continue to study.

And it's even hard to answer the question from what we know... for example, soluble fibre is probably a very important property of vegetable diets, especially as relates to cancer. Is it a 'nutrient'? Technically fibre a type of carb, so a macronutrient, but marketers and people who learn nutrition from product advertising campaigns seem to have been persuaded to ignore it when talking about, for example low carb diets, they focus on sugars and starches just like the marketing departments do.

I agree with you on the lack of evidence for phytos and antioxidants. Their popularity is the product of marketing and DSHEA's loophole allowing 'form and function' claims. There's no real science supporting them, and as an immunologist, I go further and point out that antioxidant supplements are implicated in higher risks of cancer. (which makes sense since the immune system's tumour surveillance mechanism is to oxidize the suckers... antioxidants neutralize some elements of the immune system)
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