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Old 14th September 2019, 07:45 PM   #121
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
To review, in case it isn't clear: That is a news report rumor. The actual data collected by the epidemiologists does not support this.

I did not say this.

I did not say this.

False dichotomy.

I did not say this.

I did not say this.

Why should I admit to this falsehood?

I did not say this.

I did not say this.
Then what exactly is your point?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:59 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then what exactly is your point?
From post #115:
Originally Posted by SG
If you want to have a discussion here, quit making **** up about what you think I said and reply to my quotes exactly as they are on the page.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:16 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I get you think vaping is evil because tobacco companys are involved in producing them.

SG


Quote:
I did not say this.

SG earlier

Quote:
Kind of silly to think this is going to turn out to be one chemical as opposed to multiple chemicals being the problem. They can't at this point find a particular vaping product these hospitalized kids have in common.

It's one thing to use vaping to quit smoking. It's another for the big tobacco companies to use vaping to addict another generation of kids to nicotine.

Quote:
The tobacco companies heavily invested in vaping products would have you believe so.

Take proclamations that it's only the flavored stuff with a grain of salt. Tobacco companies were the first Merchants of Doubt, providing supposed scientific studies that showed second hand smoke was harmless.
Makey mindy uppy time and tell me your actual view
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:22 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Who would have thunk that after generations of disease and death caused by inhaling crap into your lungs that inhaling new crap into you lungs would still cause disease and death? It is certainly counter intuitive. The inventor of the e-cigarette was obviously a highly trained individual with only the best intentions in regard to people's health and well being. It's not like they were in it for the money or anything.

As it happens;
Quote:
2003: What would become the first commercially successful electronic cigarette is created in Beijing, China by Hon Lik, a 52 year old pharmacist, inventor and smoker. He reportedly created the device after his father, also a heavy smoker, dies of lung cancer.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:25 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
SG

SG earlier

Makey mindy uppy time and tell me your actual view
I don't know what you think you see there. There are no contradictions in those two paragraphs.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:32 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know what you think you see there. There are no contradictions in those two paragraphs.
So you support vaping, but not tobacco companies being involved in its manufacturing?...

Or just marketing?....

Or you never said anything is bad with big tobacco being involved and I can't read?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:28 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So you support vaping, but not tobacco companies being involved in its manufacturing?...

Or just marketing?....

Or you never said anything is bad with big tobacco being involved and I can't read?
I never said anything close to this. Stick to quotes. What quotes of mine are you referring to.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:34 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I never said anything close to this. Stick to quotes. What quotes of mine are you referring to.

Then I can only come to the conclusion that you have actually given zero opinion and are just asking continuous questions of people and expecting them to give theirs.

Your posts show a dislike of big tobacco companies being involved in advertising e-cigs and they are out to get a new generation addicted and that is about it.

No answer to this issue you have, no solutions.

Well done
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:10 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then I can only come to the conclusion that you have actually given zero opinion and are just asking continuous questions of people and expecting them to give theirs.
I did not say this, nor do I think it.

Quote:
Your posts show a dislike of big tobacco companies being involved in advertising e-cigs and they are out to get a new generation addicted and that is about it.
You got this one right.

Quote:
No answer to this issue you have, no solutions.

Well done
Why do you think I have no solutions?

Earth to Cullennz, try to stop imagining the world around you. Consider you are getting something wrong. And try again.

At a minimum, stop telling me what you think I'm thinking. You're wrong and it's annoying.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:36 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I did not say this, nor do I think it.

You got this one right.

Why do you think I have no solutions?

Earth to Cullennz, try to stop imagining the world around you. Consider you are getting something wrong. And try again.

At a minimum, stop telling me what you think I'm thinking. You're wrong and it's annoying.
Forgive me

I just assumed with your posts, you were wanting to give an opinion
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:27 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is the problem I'm trying to point out. You guys are going by rumors, bad news accounts, wishful thinking because it means one wouldn't be affected.

Wait for the medical science.
I was also saying wait for medical science. We've established that Vitamin E Acetate is a very bad idea to vape, but not much else.

What do you think we should be doing in the absence of evidence here? The talk is of banning flavoured vape juices. Does that seem like the sensible response at this point to you?
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:41 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It always concerned me that vaping used common cooking ingredients (vegetable glycerine and flavorings) but that these were never approved or studied for concentrated inhalation. We just don't know what they might do, long term.
Yeah I think the research strategy should change. There are simply too many different factors (ie ingredients) to be able to reach any strong conclusions between so many different products. As others here have noted the recent health issues highlighted in the media seem limited to the US and to THC-related products which possibly have no relevance to vapes not containing the likely ingredients responsible.

Instead, they should be prioritising research into the inhalation of vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol, as these are standard ingredients in most (cigarette-related) vaping juices across the world. It would be easier to control too because you can buy pure PG/VG concentrates with no added flavours or nicotine.

Once some reasonable conclusions are reached then other ingredients like flavours can be studied so that eventually informed regulation can occur to weed out (ha) the most harmful additives.

(Disclosure: 5-year vaper here.)

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Old 15th September 2019, 12:58 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
Yeah I think the research strategy should change. There are simply too many different factors (ie ingredients) to be able to reach any strong conclusions between so many different products. As others here have noted the recent health issues highlighted in the media seem limited to the US and to THC-related products which possibly have no relevance to vapes not containing the likely ingredients responsible.

Instead, they should be prioritising research into the inhalation of vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol, as these are standard ingredients in most (cigarette-related) vaping juices across the world. It would be easier to control too because you can buy pure PG/VG concentrates with no added flavours or nicotine.

Once some reasonable conclusions are reached then other ingredients like flavours can be studied so that eventually informed regulation can occur to weed out (ha) the most harmful additives.

(Disclosure: 5-year vaper here.)
First tried it when they first came out in NZ

Basically because they are making cigarettes an atrocious price in a drive to make people give up.

Brought the fluid from some dude at work who mixed it using imported bottles.


As at the time you couldn't buy the fluid (could buy the e-cig online and fluids online)

Was pretty bad, then the new ones came out which are actually measured properly and haven't brought cigs in about a year.

Admittedly just one persons anecdote and my lungs maybe being messed with, but I have a feeling either way it won't end up how bad my mother died.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:08 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
I was also saying wait for medical science. We've established that Vitamin E Acetate is a very bad idea to vape, but not much else.

What do you think we should be doing in the absence of evidence here? The talk is of banning flavoured vape juices. Does that seem like the sensible response at this point to you?
What should be done if some food or supplement turned out to maybe be killing people? They take the product off the market. Why is this any different?

Where do you get the information it's only the vitamin E?
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:10 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
Yeah I think the research strategy should change. There are simply too many different factors (ie ingredients) to be able to reach any strong conclusions between so many different products. As others here have noted the recent health issues highlighted in the media seem limited to the US and to THC-related products which possibly have no relevance to vapes not containing the likely ingredients responsible.

Instead, they should be prioritising research into the inhalation of vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol, as these are standard ingredients in most (cigarette-related) vaping juices across the world. It would be easier to control too because you can buy pure PG/VG concentrates with no added flavours or nicotine.

Once some reasonable conclusions are reached then other ingredients like flavours can be studied so that eventually informed regulation can occur to weed out (ha) the most harmful additives.

(Disclosure: 5-year vaper here.)
Epidemiologists can manage sorting through multiple variables. Give them a little time.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:20 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Epidemiologists can manage sorting through multiple variables. Give them a little time.
I am struggling with seeing how people mixing home made vaping fluids with THC is turning into an epidemic given the numbers, and frankly, number of deaths.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:52 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Epidemiologists can manage sorting through multiple variables. Give them a little time.
For sure, but I still think it's worth focusing on the two primary ingredients that represent virtually all vape products as that knowledge will be relevant to every consumer. While I find recent events in US THC products interesting (ignoring the tragedy) it doesn't inform me about the products I use currently.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:54 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
What do you think we should be doing in the absence of evidence here? The talk is of banning flavoured vape juices. Does that seem like the sensible response at this point to you?
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What should be done if some food or supplement turned out to maybe be killing people? They take the product off the market. Why is this any different?
That response didn't address the question that was asked.

You appear to be avoiding the call for a marijuana style prohibition while making the same argument that supported marijuana prohibition for decades ("we don't know how bad it could be yet").

Since prohibition has proved to be evil and ineffective, let's go the other way this time. Leave off banning substances until we know which ones are doing the harm and keeping the bans restricted to just those particular substances. In the mean time, make information known to the public so that they can make an informed decision about which substances they can vape.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am struggling with seeing how people mixing home made vaping fluids with THC is turning into an epidemic given the numbers, and frankly, number of deaths.
You keep saying this. THC is not known to be the cause.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What should be done if some food or supplement turned out to maybe be killing people? They take the product off the market. Why is this any different?



Where do you get the information it's only the vitamin E?
It should have been the other way around, ie vaping being proved to be safe or at least actual risks known before they were allowed on sale to the general public. They are a form of self medication.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What should be done if some food or supplement turned out to maybe be killing people? They take the product off the market. Why is this any different?
There's quite a bit to unpack in that "maybe". There are plenty of things that maybe kill people that don't get taken off the market. A fair few things that almost certainly kill people are still on the market.

ETA: Also worth pointing out that if 6 people died after eating cookies in a fairly short space of time, I don't suppose there would be serious suggestion about a blanket removal of cookies from the market. Particularly if some of the culprits were established to be black market cookies.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where do you get the information it's only the vitamin E?
That's not what I said.
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Old 15th September 2019, 08:24 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you ever answer my questions?
Is it OK for the vape sellers to lie and claim the products are safe?

Is it OK they be unregulated?

What age is it OK to sell these products to?

Who pays the health costs when dozens of young people end up in ICU from lung damage?
These are fine questions and should be answered with nonpartisan legislation backed up with unbiased research and in keeping with our societal values. Donald Trump stating he's taking action because his wife woke up having a conniption thinking her son will be at risk is not how I want legislation passed.

I asked if it was OK to drink beer. At what age might it be OK? Many people have had loved ones killed by beer drinkers. Beer drinking can be an unhealthy activity. Should it be made illegal?

These issues need to be judged in a sober fashion. I don't see that occurring today.
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:56 AM   #143
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I just saw part of a news report stating that they have isolated the ingredients causing respiratory issues. It was found in two brands. Both were sold on the "dark web". I will look into it more later.
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:53 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That response didn't address the question that was asked.
Why, because I didn't say "yes" first?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You appear to be avoiding the call for a marijuana style prohibition while making the same argument that supported marijuana prohibition for decades ("we don't know how bad it could be yet").

Since prohibition has proved to be evil and ineffective, let's go the other way this time. Leave off banning substances until we know which ones are doing the harm and keeping the bans restricted to just those particular substances. In the mean time, make information known to the public so that they can make an informed decision about which substances they can vape.
More imaginary interpretations of SG's posts.

OMG all the defensive vapers in this discussion.

A bunch of people began presenting with serious lung damage and there are now 3 confirmed deaths and a 4th suspected.

That is an acute (abrupt onset) epidemic, not a slow rise in lung cancer cases over years.

Public health reaction to those two different scenarios is not the same. Suddenly across the country, hundreds of cases of acute lung damage showed up in a fairly short period of time.

You don't put warnings on vape products. You investigate what is causing the problem.

You don't jump the gun and say it looks like it might be X when you know there are a dozen cases that cannot be tied to X. The news media might want to jump the gun and publish poorly informed stories. They have no motive to be accurate.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I just saw part of a news report stating that they have isolated the ingredients causing respiratory issues. It was found in two brands. Both were sold on the "dark web". I will look into it more later.
Be sure to look into who "they" are.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:27 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
These are fine questions and should be answered with nonpartisan legislation backed up with unbiased research and in keeping with our societal values. Donald Trump stating he's taking action because his wife woke up having a conniption thinking her son will be at risk is not how I want legislation passed.
Why were you reluctant to answer this in the first place?

Originally Posted by Senex View Post
I asked if it was OK to drink beer. At what age might it be OK? Many people have had loved ones killed by beer drinkers. Beer drinking can be an unhealthy activity. Should it be made illegal?

These issues need to be judged in a sober fashion. I don't see that occurring today.
Should we discuss swimming pools too?

Aren't swimming pools one of the standard whataboutisms?

See my above post about the abrupt onset of an epidemic.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:32 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
There's quite a bit to unpack in that "maybe". There are plenty of things that maybe kill people that don't get taken off the market. A fair few things that almost certainly kill people are still on the market.

ETA: Also worth pointing out that if 6 people died after eating cookies in a fairly short space of time, I don't suppose there would be serious suggestion about a blanket removal of cookies from the market. Particularly if some of the culprits were established to be black market cookies.
You'll have to cite this incident.

The CDC quite often recalls dangerous products. Sometimes it's a very large recall and sometimes it is mandatory.

But all this whataboutism is a fail. See why in my post #144 above. You are conflating an acute epidemic with any and all forms of a dangerous product.


Originally Posted by Egg View Post
That's not what I said.
You said:
Quote:
We've established that Vitamin E Acetate is a very bad idea to vape, but not much else.
I accept your clarification you didn't mean it was only vitamin E.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:36 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It should have been the other way around, ie vaping being proved to be safe or at least actual risks known before they were allowed on sale to the general public. They are a form of self medication.
That's true of a gazillion products in the US; the result of our lobby system influencing government regulations.

When regulations were implemented addressing the safety of thousands of chemicals, there was only data on about 74, IIRC. So the FDA simply grandfathered in all the rest.

Lovely.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:40 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
For sure, but I still think it's worth focusing on the two primary ingredients that represent virtually all vape products as that knowledge will be relevant to every consumer. While I find recent events in US THC products interesting (ignoring the tragedy) it doesn't inform me about the products I use currently.
I don't know what those two products are. Are you referring to THC and nicotine? Or something else?

It's unlikely either of those by themselves are going to turn out to be the problem, and it is unlikely it's going to be something that has been in vaping products for years. This appears to be a recent development.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:42 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am struggling with seeing how people mixing home made vaping fluids with THC is turning into an epidemic given the numbers, and frankly, number of deaths.
I think you should let this rest. You are struggling with the medical science so wait for some definitive reports and then try to make sense of it.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:24 PM   #151
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:42 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why were you reluctant to answer this in the first place?
I wasn't. I felt my beer reference made my argument transparent.

Quote:
Should we discuss swimming pools too?

Aren't swimming pools one of the standard whataboutisms?
I haven't given it much thought. I don't own a pool and haven't had to worry. I'm not against pools. Teach your kids to keep out of your neighbors pools. Don't hold your neighbors responsible if your children trespass. I'm comfortable making that proclamation.
Quote:
See my above post about the abrupt onset of an epidemic.
Yeah, black death, yellow fever, cholera, the Spanish flu, those were epidemics. Vaping? Let's not let Trump make this call.
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Old 15th September 2019, 04:01 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
I wasn't. I felt my beer reference made my argument transparent.

I haven't given it much thought. I don't own a pool and haven't had to worry. I'm not against pools. Teach your kids to keep out of your neighbors pools. Don't hold your neighbors responsible if your children trespass. I'm comfortable making that proclamation.


Yeah, black death, yellow fever, cholera, the Spanish flu, those were epidemics. Vaping? Let's not let Trump make this call.
You seem to be the only one in the thread focused on Trump's stupidity. I have no interest in that trivia at the moment. When he declares the CDC to be lying and takes a donation from a vaping company, let me know.



I debated between outbreak and epidemic. The reason I went with epidemic was technical. An outbreak is typically limited geographically. These cases are in about 30 states IIRC and involve up to 400 or more cases. That is typically referred to as an epidemic, not an outbreak.
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Old 15th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You seem to be the only one in the thread focused on Trump's stupidity. I have no interest in that trivia at the moment. When he declares the CDC to be lying and takes a donation from a vaping company, let me know.



I debated between outbreak and epidemic. The reason I went with epidemic was technical. An outbreak is typically limited geographically. These cases are in about 30 states IIRC and involve up to 400 or more cases. That is typically referred to as an epidemic, not an outbreak.
Using the word "epidemic" (or "outbreak," holy moley) while addressing vaping issues diminishes real epidemics and outbreaks. I believe you are a thoughtful enough person to see vaping doesn't rise to this level of scaring people.
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:55 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Using the word "epidemic" (or "outbreak," holy moley) while addressing vaping issues diminishes real epidemics and outbreaks. I believe you are a thoughtful enough person to see vaping doesn't rise to this level of scaring people.
I'm an infectious disease specialist. This rises to the level of something very serious.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:05 PM   #156
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I've just done a quick literature review which I'm not going to do the whole findings and sources, too much work. So take these things I found as you wish, I don't care. And anyone that wants to do their own research that is fantastic. Please post what you find too. I looked through scientific papers via pubmed.gov and the Guardian had a good article.

First, vaping has not yet taken off outside of the US. That explains why we might not be seeing deaths and illness outside the US.

Second, the only research so far that isn't funded by the tobacco companies fails to show vaping helps people quit smoking. Safety studies are lacking. And the chemicals in the vaping liquids combine into new compounds after manufacture.

Third, the tobacco companies have fairly recently upped their sales and promotion of vaping products.

Fourth, the tobacco companies are putting out research claiming all the benefits of vaping and promoting it on social media sites aimed at the youth market.

Fifth, sales of vaping products and the numbers of teens using them has skyrocketed in the last year.
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Old 15th September 2019, 06:26 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm an infectious disease specialist. This rises to the level of something very serious.
Here was me thinking an epidemic was kind of like double digit deaths per 100,000 people.

Personally think you should have stuck with outbreak.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:18 PM   #158
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Did you look up the medical definitions of outbreak and epidemic?

You would find that it differs depending on the illness, normal baselines, rapidness of change and sometimes geographic occurrence.

Personally, I think you should use caution conflating your opinions with facts.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:21 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you look up the medical definitions of outbreak and epidemic?

You would find that it differs depending on the illness, normal baselines, rapidness of change and sometimes geographic occurrence.

Personally, I think you should use caution conflating your opinions with facts.
You might want to tone down what you accused me of doing and stop putting words in my posts given I said "here was me thinking" and "personally" is suddenly me stating facts.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:30 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I've just done a quick literature review which I'm not going to do the whole findings and sources, too much work. So take these things I found as you wish, I don't care. And anyone that wants to do their own research that is fantastic. Please post what you find too. I looked through scientific papers via pubmed.gov and the Guardian had a good article.

First, vaping has not yet taken off outside of the US. That explains why we might not be seeing deaths and illness outside the US.

Second, the only research so far that isn't funded by the tobacco companies fails to show vaping helps people quit smoking. Safety studies are lacking. And the chemicals in the vaping liquids combine into new compounds after manufacture.

Third, the tobacco companies have fairly recently upped their sales and promotion of vaping products.

Fourth, the tobacco companies are putting out research claiming all the benefits of vaping and promoting it on social media sites aimed at the youth market.

Fifth, sales of vaping products and the numbers of teens using them has skyrocketed in the last year.
sixth, no conclusions can be drawn.

seventh, your defense of Trump is interesting.

Last edited by Senex; 15th September 2019 at 07:33 PM.
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