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Tags Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 26th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #201
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
again you are repeating something that makes no sense. If Palestine is a place, and it has been mentioned for more than 2000 years as I have cited, then why are its inhabitants not Palestinians?

I mean all of them, Muslim Jewish, Samaritan and Christian inhabitants alike. Palestine is not Egypt. It is not Jordan. Although both Egypt and Jordan have occupied parts of it.
Because Palestinians defined a Palestinians as:

The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

Quote:
At present Israel is engaged in an illegal repopulation and annexation of Palestinian lands.
There is nothing illegal about annexation of those lands. Repopulation is indeed illegal, until those lands are annexed.

You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.

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Old 26th September 2019, 06:29 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In a defensive war, against an invader determined to committ a genocide over the Jews in the region.

Poland got Prussia in a similar situation just a few years prior. Millions of Prussians were expelled without compensation and resettled in other German states. It seems as relevant example as any.
Yes which is why we should be proud of the Israeli victory in deindustrializing palestine and making sure that it has been decades since they have had uninterrupted power for 24 hours straight. This is a moral and strategic victory for Israel and should be recognized as such.

But yea we are back to ethnic cleansing being the only solution, and then when that fails like when no one wanted the jews hitler was trying to get rid of in 1939 well we can hardly blame them for seeking other solutions.
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Old 26th September 2019, 06:33 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

There is nothing illegal about annexation of those lands. Repopulation is indeed illegal, until those lands are annexed.
Yea just like all the crap about how Russian annexation of the Ukrainian territory was some kind of crime. Annexation is always legal. Just like ethnic cleansing.

Taking land and driving out the inhabitants is fine, so why are you all upset only when certain nations do it?
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:20 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Because Palestinians defined a Palestinians as:

The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.



There is nothing illegal about annexation of those lands. Repopulation is indeed illegal, until those lands are annexed.

You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.

McHrozni
So the expression Palestinians includes Jews who live there as well as Arabs, just as I required. Why is annexation not illegal? It is gross imperialism or colonialism. Do Jordan and Egypt give their consent to the alienation of their territories for the purpose you propose? These are relevant issues, you will agree. Or at least ought to agree.
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:28 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea just like all the crap about how Russian annexation of the Ukrainian territory was some kind of crime. Annexation is always legal. Just like ethnic cleansing.

Taking land and driving out the inhabitants is fine, so why are you all upset only when certain nations do it?
It's ganocidal antisemitism to object when Israel does it, I suppose. Here's the UN
Israel occupied two-thirds of the Golan Heights from Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War, and subsequently built Jewish settlements in the area. In 1981, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, which extended Israeli "law, jurisdiction, and administration" to the area, including the Shebaa farms area. This declaration was declared "null and void and without international legal effect" by UNSC Resolution 497. The only state that recognized the annexation is the Federated States of Micronesia.
Note, from wiki again.
The Federated States of Micronesia (/ˌmaɪkroʊˈniːʒə/ ( listen); abbreviated FSM and also known simply as Micronesia) is an independent republic associated with the United States.

Last edited by Craig B; 26th September 2019 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:58 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's ganocidal antisemitism to object when Israel does it, I suppose. Here's the UN
Israel occupied two-thirds of the Golan Heights from Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War, and subsequently built Jewish settlements in the area. In 1981, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, which extended Israeli "law, jurisdiction, and administration" to the area, including the Shebaa farms area. This declaration was declared "null and void and without international legal effect" by UNSC Resolution 497. The only state that recognized the annexation is the Federated States of Micronesia.
Note, from wiki again.
The Federated States of Micronesia (/ˌmaɪkroʊˈniːʒə/ ( listen); abbreviated FSM and also known simply as Micronesia) is an independent republic associated with the United States.
Yea as long as you frame the invasion as and annexation you are good to go. I mean only jews have a right to self determination in the region anyway.
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Old 26th September 2019, 08:40 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So the expression Palestinians includes Jews who live there as well as Arabs, just as I required. Why is annexation not illegal?
I'm guessing annexation is not illegal because there is currently no law on the books that prohibits it.

I'm also guessing that there's a some law, on some books, somewhere, that aspires to prohibit it, but the lawmakers lack the jurisdiction, will, and resources to actually enforce it on Israel.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:30 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Cosmic Yak says Palestine is a real place but Palestinians are a fiction. See post 167. What do you think?
No, I do not. Please do not put your own spin on my posts.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Yes, as a reference to an area.
The term 'Palestinians', up until 1948, referred to anyone living in that area, be they Arab, Jew, Muslim or Christian.
It was only after the creation of the state of Israel that it was used to mean 'Palestinian Arabs', as a separate nation.
As has been explained already, this is pure fiction. The Palestinian Arabs were never a distinct ethnic or national group, and indeed, many of those claiming to be dispossessed Palestinians were not from what is now Israel at all. A good number were migrants from other areas of Palestine, many were from other Arab countries, and some were not even Arabs at all.
The concept of "the Palestinians", meaning Palestinian Arabs, is a modern creation, used by the Arabs as a stick with which to beat Israel.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:33 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
again you are repeating something that makes no sense. If Palestine is a place, and it has been mentioned for more than 2000 years as I have cited, then why are its inhabitants not Palestinians? I mean all of them, Muslim Jewish, Samaritan and Christian inhabitants alike.
Which is what I said, several posts ago. See post 167, the one you have apparently misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Palestine is not Egypt. It is not Jordan. Although both Egypt and Jordan have occupied parts of it.
Where did Jordan come from? You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:35 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm guessing annexation is not illegal because there is currently no law on the books that prohibits it.

I'm also guessing that there's a some law, on some books, somewhere, that aspires to prohibit it, but the lawmakers lack the jurisdiction, will, and resources to actually enforce it on Israel.
That's the problem with annexation. It messes up the very concept of jurisdiction. Whose laws apply? Those of the annexee or annexor?

Stalin and his contemporary Hitler were enthusiasts for annexing territory. This propensity has done nothing to enhance the reputation of either of these politicians. Annexation does not lead to peace as the Germans discovered when they annexed Alsace and Lorraine from France after the war of 1870. Wiki:
The transfer was controversial even among the Germans: The German Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, was initially opposed to it, as he thought it would engender permanent French enmity toward Germany. [As it clearly did] ... Karl Marx also warned his fellow Germans: "If Alsace and Lorraine are taken, then France will later make war on Germany in conjunction with Russia. It is unnecessary to go into the unholy consequences."
They were "unholy" indeed, when that accurate prediction was fulfilled in 1914.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's the problem with annexation. It messes up the very concept of jurisdiction. Whose laws apply? Those of the annexee or annexor?
I don't think it's actually that confusing.

For one thing, we can start by looking at both party's laws. Do either of them prohibit it?

Then we can look at which party is in a position to enforce their laws.

Finally, we can look at whether either party is subordinate to a higher authority with the jurisdiction (or at least the will and resources) to overrule the annexation (or enforce it).

But "how is it not illegal?" implies that you believe it *is* illegal, at least according to somebody's laws. Is that the case? Do you think it's illegal? If so, which body of law are you referencing?
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:03 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Because Palestinians defined a Palestinians as:

The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.



There is nothing illegal about annexation of those lands. Repopulation is indeed illegal, until those lands are annexed.

You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.

McHrozni
I won't get into a discussion of legality but annexing the West Bank would be a really stupid idea.
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:04 PM   #213
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You know I think is some people's eyes everybody has a right to live in Palestine except for the Jews.....
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:07 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which is what I said, several posts ago. See post 167, the one you have apparently misunderstood.



Where did Jordan come from? You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.
That Jordan was pretty much a creation of convience for the Brits post WOrdl War One would come as a shock to some people...…

It was part of the division of loot between Britian and France....

"There was a British Civil Servent named Sykes, and a French Civil Servant named Picot"....
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:10 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes which is why we should be proud of the Israeli victory in deindustrializing palestine and making sure that it has been decades since they have had uninterrupted power for 24 hours straight. This is a moral and strategic victory for Israel and should be recognized as such.
You can't deinstrialize a country that never had industry. We couldn't depopulate Mars if we wanted to.

Quote:
But yea we are back to ethnic cleansing being the only solution, and then when that fails like when no one wanted the jews hitler was trying to get rid of in 1939 well we can hardly blame them for seeking other solutions.
Why do you keep invoking Hitler, I wonder? If Israel did that to Palestinians they would be wiped out in three years.


We see this instead.

Palestinian population is growing, by approximately 1 million people in the last decade alone. That's 100,000 more Palestinians every single year. That's one crappy genocide where you can't even keep up with natural growth of a population you should be able to exterminate in totality in under three years.

I really don't understand why some people insist on making the comparison between Jews and Hitler. I guess it's because they're trying to be as revolting as possible, it looks like a sort of a foreplay.

In case it's that: I do not consent.

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:17 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea just like all the crap about how Russian annexation of the Ukrainian territory was some kind of crime.
Russia invaded Ukraine and later annexed the land occupied in the war.

Israel was invaded by Jordan and later annexeed the land occupied in the war.

The first is an aggressive war of conquest, the other a victorious defender taking the spoils. No one claims Poland doesn't deserve the ownership of Prussia, yet millions of ethnic Germans were either expelled or killed if they didn't want to leave their homes.

Prussia is the state that made Germany in the first place. It's the literal cradle of Germany. Yet no one (save for a few neo-Nazis I guess) argues Prussia should be taken from Poland and given to Germany because the annexation was illegal or unjust.

Winning lands in an aggressive war of conquest is prohibited and illegal irrespective of context since WW2. Winning lands in a defensive war against a wannabe conqueror is permitted. Expelling unwanted inhabitants of lands conquered in defensive wars is also permissable. That's what the precendens says, I didn't make it up. I'm just asking for the same rules as apply for everyone apply to Israel and Palestine too.

I guess that makes me a racist?

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:18 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I won't get into a discussion of legality but annexing the West Bank would be a really stupid idea.
No doubt. I didn't say it was a good idea or anything of the sort.

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Old 26th September 2019, 10:23 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So the expression Palestinians includes Jews who live there as well as Arabs, just as I required.
There are two ways to look at the definition of Jews as Palestinians:

1. The definition extends to descendants of Jews that lived in the region before some arbitrary date. In this case most of Jews in Israel would already qualify as Palestinians.

2. The definition does not include descendants. In this case they're giving the status of a Palestinian to a population that is in their 11th decade of life or older.

Needless to say, each of those presents a unique set of problems.

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Old 27th September 2019, 04:23 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which is what I said, several posts ago. See post 167, the one you have apparently misunderstood.



Where did Jordan come from? You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.
It came from mcHrozni cited in post 204, so direct your intimidatory insults at him. I can live with that. He said
You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.
I'm sure you're free to do that as well, if you have studied the subject sufficiently to engage in this debate, I mean.
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Old 27th September 2019, 04:44 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It came from mcHrozni cited in post 204, so direct your intimidatory insults at him. I can live with that. He said
You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.
I'm sure you're free to do that as well, if you have studied the subject sufficiently to engage in this debate, I mean.
It's McHrozni, not mcHrozni.

Care to give my proposal a go? I have no qualms about moving all wannabe Palestinians to Jordan and calling them Jordanians. Or else rename Jordan Palestine, or Arab Palestine or Jordan-Palestine or Palestine-Jordan or Palestine-transjordan or ... or any of the other suitable names.

Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".

https://www.mythsandfacts.org/confli..._palestine.jpg

I'm fine if it regains the name.

McHrozni
(and not mcHrozni)
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Old 27th September 2019, 05:08 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's McHrozni, not mcHrozni.

Care to give my proposal a go? I have no qualms about moving all wannabe Palestinians to Jordan and calling them Jordanians. Or else rename Jordan Palestine, or Arab Palestine or Jordan-Palestine or Palestine-Jordan or Palestine-transjordan or ... or any of the other suitable names.

Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".

https://www.mythsandfacts.org/confli..._palestine.jpg

I'm fine if it regains the name.

McHrozni
(and not mcHrozni)
You may be fine with that, but is Jordan fine with it? Suppose I were to rename Israel as "Jewish-Arab Palestine" and send the expelled Arabs and their descendants back there to reclaim their properties. Would that be OK? There are problems with notions of that kind. People who have no qualms about such operations are somewhat irresponsible, I believe.

Sorry I missed a capitalisation of your surname. It was a keyboard error, but if you wish to perceive in it some kind of weird slight, I am helpless to prevent you.
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Old 27th September 2019, 05:19 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's McHrozni, not mcHrozni.


Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".

https://www.mythsandfacts.org/confli..._palestine.jpg

I'm fine if it regains the name.

McHrozni
(and not mcHrozni)
Can you tell me when and by whom Jordan was given the name "Arab Palestine"? Your linked source is a Zionist map, which even includes Golan in "Jewish Palestine", but there is nothing I can see that calls Jordan Arab Palestine in the current or former names of that country as noted in wiki.

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Old 27th September 2019, 05:38 AM   #223
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's McHrozni, not mcHrozni.


Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".

https://www.mythsandfacts.org/confli..._palestine.jpg

I'm fine if it regains the name.

McHrozni
(and not mcHrozni)
Has there ever been a place named "Jewish Palestine" as shown in your linked map, comprising all the territories between the Egyptian and Lebanese border west of the Jordan, but including also the Golan.

Serious question. As the map includes no publisher's name, can you provide me with that information?
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Old 27th September 2019, 08:18 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Has there ever been a place named "Jewish Palestine" as shown in your linked map, comprising all the territories between the Egyptian and Lebanese border west of the Jordan, but including also the Golan.

Serious question. As the map includes no publisher's name, can you provide me with that information?
I found what I was looking for. The absurdity of your map is easily explained. This is another of the myriad Zionist think tanks in the USA. Its boss is Eli E Hertz. See here for biog.

Last edited by Craig B; 27th September 2019 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:15 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Where did Jordan come from? You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It came from mcHrozni cited in post 204,
Can you explain what 'it' is in your post? It makes no sense to me as an answer to my question.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
so direct your intimidatory insults at him.
Oh, please. Suggesting you educate yourself is not intimidatory. Nor, given your frequent displays of ignorance regarding this subject, is it insulting: it is a recommendation based on fact.
You also appear to have missed this post:
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That Jordan was pretty much a creation of convience for the Brits post WOrdl War One would come as a shock to some people...…

It was part of the division of loot between Britian and France....

"There was a British Civil Servent named Sykes, and a French Civil Servant named Picot"....

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I can live with that. He said
You're still free to point out why carving out a state for Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt is such a no-no.
I'm sure you're free to do that as well, if you have studied the subject sufficiently to engage in this debate, I mean.
I was not aware that this question was aimed at me. Nor was I aware that it was related to anything I have said so far.
Rest assured that my knowledge of this subject is sufficient for the debate. This doesn't mean I'm going to interrupt a conversation of which I am not a part.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:16 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I found what I was looking for. The absurdity of your map is easily explained. This is another of the myriad Zionist think tanks in the USA. Its boss is Eli E Hertz. See here for biog.
Obvious ad hominem.
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:54 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Obvious ad hominem.
A link to his online biography is ad hominem? I've heard of an ad hominem argument, but how can a hyperlink to somebody's own statements about himself be ad hominem? Anyway it's not even an argument. It's an illustration that This is a Zionist source, not an independent one.

Is this rubbish post meant to divert my mind from the question I asked? When was Israel called Jewish Palestine? So far as I know it has never borne that name, any more than Jordan has been called Arab Palestine. That is the issue before us at present.

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Old 28th September 2019, 05:34 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I found what I was looking for. The absurdity of your map is easily explained. This is another of the myriad Zionist think tanks in the USA. Its boss is Eli E Hertz. See here for biog.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Obvious ad hominem.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A link to his online biography is ad hominem? I've heard of an ad hominem argument, but how can a hyperlink to somebody's own statements about himself be ad hominem? Anyway it's not even an argument. It's an illustration that This is a Zionist source, not an independent one.
The link is not the ad hominem, as you well know. The dismissal of the authenticity of the map,as being 'absurd' due to its being on a 'Zionist think tank' blog is the ad hominem.
You then go on to double down on this by saying that the source is not independent.
None of this is actual evidence that the map is inauthentic or absurd. You are simply handwaving it away because you don't like the source.
In other words, an ad hominem logical fallacy.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is this rubbish post meant to divert my mind from the question I asked? When was Israel called Jewish Palestine? So far as I know it has never borne that name, any more than Jordan has been called Arab Palestine. That is the issue before us at present.
No. I'd actually like you to go back and support the rather strange claims you have made about Zionism, that you seem to have forgotten. That, and the curious pronoun in your other post. And your misrepresentation of my post about the Palestinian nation.
These are the issues before us at present. Your questions about Jewish or Arab Palestine are the issues before you and McHrozni. I am not McHrozni.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:11 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Your questions about Jewish or Arab Palestine are the issues before you and McHrozni. I am not McHrozni.
I know, and in fact you have already observed to me that
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
... my knowledge of this subject is sufficient for the debate. This doesn't mean I'm going to interrupt a conversation of which I am not a part.
That seems to me to be a reasonable stance, and if you wish to adhere to it more consistently, I undertake not to attribute your resulting silence to any lack of knowledge.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:50 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The link is not the ad hominem, as you well know. The dismissal of the authenticity of the map,as being 'absurd' due to its being on a 'Zionist think tank' blog is the ad hominem.
You then go on to double down on this by saying that the source is not independent.
None of this is actual evidence that the map is inauthentic or absurd. You are simply handwaving it away because you don't like the source.
In other words, an ad hominem logical fallacy.



No. I'd actually like you to go back and support the rather strange claims you have made about Zionism, that you seem to have forgotten. That, and the curious pronoun in your other post. And your misrepresentation of my post about the Palestinian nation.
These are the issues before us at present. Your questions about Jewish or Arab Palestine are the issues before you and McHrozni. I am not McHrozni.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I know, and in fact you have already observed to me that That seems to me to be a reasonable stance, and if you wish to adhere to it more consistently, I undertake not to attribute your resulting silence to any lack of knowledge.
Dodged my points and added a veiled insult to boot.
Quality.
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Old 28th September 2019, 10:04 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Dodged my points and added a veiled insult to boot.
Quality.
My "insult" is wearing a very heavy veil indeed, since what I said was that what you were suggesting seemed to me to be a reasonable stance.
What point did I dodge? The point that you are not NcHrozni? I dealt with that most fully, using your own words as my text, that you would not interrupt a conversation of which you are not a part. So be it. I will converse with McHrozni if he wishes to continue.

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Old 28th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
My "insult" is wearing a very heavy veil indeed, since what I said was that what you were suggesting seemed to me to be a reasonable stance.
What point did I dodge? The point that you are not NcHrozni? I dealt with that most fully, using your own words as my text, that you would not interrupt a conversation of which you are not a part. So be it. I will converse with McHrozni if he wishes to continue.
I have highlighted the parts of my post that you have dodged.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The link is not the ad hominem, as you well know. The dismissal of the authenticity of the map,as being 'absurd' due to its being on a 'Zionist think tank' blog is the ad hominem.
You then go on to double down on this by saying that the source is not independent.
None of this is actual evidence that the map is inauthentic or absurd. You are simply handwaving it away because you don't like the source.
In other words, an ad hominem logical fallacy.




No. I'd actually like you to go back and support the rather strange claims you have made about Zionism, that you seem to have forgotten. That, and the curious pronoun in your other post. And your misrepresentation of my post about the Palestinian nation.
These are the issues before us at present. Your questions about Jewish or Arab Palestine are the issues before you and McHrozni. I am not McHrozni.
Any time you're ready.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:55 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have highlighted the parts of my post that you have dodged.



Any time you're ready.
There is no such time. Not only have you excluded yourself from this discussion, as I have reminded you; you have excluded me too
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.
So neither of us qualifies to discuss with the other, which is fine with me, because I don't see how such a discussion could be respectful or productive.
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Old 29th September 2019, 01:03 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Palestine is not Egypt. It is not Jordan. Although both Egypt and Jordan have occupied parts of it.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post

Where did Jordan come from? You really need to study this subject more before you engage in this debate.

As Craig B is currently refusing to answer this question, I will go ahead and answer it myself.
Jordan was created from part of Palestine, basically because Abdullah wanted a kingdom like his brother Faisal, who got Iraq. To appease him, the British carved out a new country for him, out of what was originally Palestine. Palestine, of course, was supposed to be the site of the proposed Jewish homeland, so immediately the amount of land available for this was significantly reduced.
Not only that, but Jordan did not want a separate Palestinian (i.e. Palestinian Arab) state. Instead, they claimed the whole of the West Bank as their own, and annexed it in 1950. Jordan only formally renounced its claim to the West Bank in 1988.
Jordan's population is actually mostly Palestinian as well, so both in terms of geography and ethnicity, Jordan is very much Palestine.
This is the reason why I have accused CraigB of ignorance, because to state that Jordan is not Palestine is clearly untrue, a mistake that can only have arisen from ignorance of the facts.
I have covered this earlier in this thread, but here are some links again, to support what I'm saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...#Establishment

https://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian
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Old 29th September 2019, 01:20 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Zionism asserts that they and they alone are there entitled to self determination by reason of ethno-religious origin, be that to the detriment of non-Jews who are there by "mere" right of birth, property or descent. That is what is different about Zionism. That is what is wrong with it.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Having looked at Zionism, and also the Israeli Declaration of Independence, I can find no support for this idea. It is, in fact, specifically contradicted by the latter, and indeed by the Balfour Declaration. I'm also not sure that Zionism denies all other ethnicities the right to self-determination, and would like to see you provide some corroboration for that too.
Quoted with thanks, dudalb:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don't hold your breath.
What Craig B said about Zionism is crap.
The problem I have with the Anti Zionists is that particular horse left the stable in 1948.
What cracks me up is people like Craig demand that pro Israeli supporters take a "more balanced: view of the situation. IMHO, Physician, heal thyself.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from the Guardian
"Adding that the legislation would complicate a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, the EU joined Israeli Arab political leaders, Israeli opposition politicians and liberal Jewish groups in the US in flagging up concern, with some saying the law amounted to “apartheid”.

The legislation stipulates that “Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it”.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from the wiki article on the law, which I recommend to you
"According to the proposal, Israel would be defined as the nation state of the Jewish people, and the right to self-determination in Israel would be unique to the Jewish people. The proposal also stated that the state of Israel should establish ethnic communities where every resident can preserve their culture and heritage,[27] that the Hebrew language would be considered the official language of the state of Israel (while granting the Arabic language a special status)."
Again, in the absence of any reply, I will continue, in the assumption that there are some on this forum who actually do want to engage in a debate.
What CraigB has done with these last two posts is to take one action by Netanyhu, and use it to support his claim that Zionism as a whole negates any idea of self-determination by any group other than Jews.
This is simply wrong.
Zionism is at least 100 years old, and encompasses a wide range of differing views and stances. To use one modern-day example and ignore everything else is, frankly, dishonest. The only thing that can be said about this new law is that it represents a particular, right-wing and somewhat intolerant strand of Zionism. It cannot be said to represent Zionism as a whole, at least not without some actual evidence.

This is what some of the Israelis think about it:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...tion-1.7836161

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/02...arak-election/

It would appear that a significant portion of Israeli opinion considers Netanyahu's actions contrary to Zionism.
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:00 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As Craig B is currently refusing to answer this question, I will go ahead and answer it myself.
Jordan was created from part of Palestine, basically because Abdullah wanted a kingdom like his brother Faisal, who got Iraq. To appease him, the British carved out a new country for him, out of what was originally Palestine. Palestine, of course, was supposed to be the site of the proposed Jewish homeland, so immediately the amount of land available for this was significantly reduced.
Not only that, but Jordan did not want a separate Palestinian (i.e. Palestinian Arab) state. Instead, they claimed the whole of the West Bank as their own, and annexed it in 1950. Jordan only formally renounced its claim to the West Bank in 1988.
Jordan's population is actually mostly Palestinian as well, so both in terms of geography and ethnicity, Jordan is very much Palestine.
This is the reason why I have accused CraigB of ignorance, because to state that Jordan is not Palestine is clearly untrue, a mistake that can only have arisen from ignorance of the facts.
I have covered this earlier in this thread, but here are some links again, to support what I'm saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...#Establishment

https://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian
This is from wiki on the source of your first link.
In 2018, the MEF boasted that it had been "heavily involved"[1] in the release from prison of British anti-Islam activist and far-right political operative. Tommy Robinson, who is best known as a co-founder, former spokesman and former leader of the English Defence League (EDL) organisation, and for his recent service as a political adviser to the leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), Gerard Batten.[23] They revealed that "the full resources of the Middle East Forum were activated to free Mr. Robinson"[1], which included: conferring with Robinson's legal team and providing necessary funds; funding, organizing and staffing the "Free Tommy" London rallies.
You are a publicist for some very npleasant people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Forum
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:06 AM   #237
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Jordan is not Palestine. Sweden is not Norway, though it once ruled Norway. The UK is not Ireland though it once ruled Ireland.
After the Six-Day War, Jordan lost control of the West Bank to Israel. However, the Palestinians in the West Bank lost neither their citizenship nor their seats in the Jordanian parliament. About 300,000 Palestinians fled to Jordan. In 1970, a conflict broke out between the Jordanian Armed Forces led by King Hussein and the Palestine Liberation Organization led by Yasser Arafat. This conflict was known as Black September. After the war, Jordan expelled the PLO. Palestinians in the West Bank would retain their Jordanian citizenship until Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988. Jordan later recognized the PLO as "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people."
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:17 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from wiki on the source of your first link.
In 2018, the MEF boasted that it had been "heavily involved"[1] in the release from prison of British anti-Islam activist and far-right political operative. Tommy Robinson, who is best known as a co-founder, former spokesman and former leader of the English Defence League (EDL) organisation, and for his recent service as a political adviser to the leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), Gerard Batten.[23] They revealed that "the full resources of the Middle East Forum were activated to free Mr. Robinson"[1], which included: conferring with Robinson's legal team and providing necessary funds; funding, organizing and staffing the "Free Tommy" London rallies.
You are a publicist for some very npleasant people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Forum
I did not check who owns the ME Forum, which was my error, and for which I apologise.
Nonetheless, your post is yet another ad hominem. If you have factual evidence to show that Palestinians do not make up a majority of Jordan's population, or that they face a significant amount of discrimination in that country, or that any of the historical facts I posted are untrue, then please post it.
Dismissing evidence because you don't like the politics of those posting it is an absolute ad hominem. It is also contrary to what I believe is the spirit of this forum, which is here to compare and evaluate different viewpoints, not to brush away all disagreement with one's own opinion as being inherently wrong, merely because it is not one's own opinion.
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:24 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I did not check who owns the ME Forum, which was my error, and for which I apologise.
Nonetheless, your post is yet another ad hominem. If you have factual evidence to show that Palestinians do not make up a majority of Jordan's population, or that they face a significant amount of discrimination in that country, or that any of the historical facts I posted are untrue, then please post it.
Dismissing evidence because you don't like the politics of those posting it is an absolute ad hominem. It is also contrary to what I believe is the spirit of this forum, which is here to compare and evaluate different viewpoints, not to brush away all disagreement with one's own opinion as being inherently wrong, merely because it is not one's own opinion.
I reject your accusations, and it is I who have been arguing that there is such a thing as a population of Palestinians, against people who have been saying otherwise, so I have no further comment to make. It is a matter of indifference anyway as Palestine and Jordan are at present different polities mutually recognising each other. They are not the same thing. To object to fascist sources as biased is not an ad hominem fallacy. What an absurd idea.
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Old 29th September 2019, 06:27 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Jordan is not Palestine. Sweden is not Norway, though it once ruled Norway. The UK is not Ireland though it once ruled Ireland.
After the Six-Day War, Jordan lost control of the West Bank to Israel. However, the Palestinians in the West Bank lost neither their citizenship nor their seats in the Jordanian parliament. About 300,000 Palestinians fled to Jordan. In 1970, a conflict broke out between the Jordanian Armed Forces led by King Hussein and the Palestine Liberation Organization led by Yasser Arafat. This conflict was known as Black September. After the war, Jordan expelled the PLO. Palestinians in the West Bank would retain their Jordanian citizenship until Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988. Jordan later recognized the PLO as "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people."
You are conflating Palestine the area, with Palestine the newly-formed nation. Prior to the Mandate, there were no Jordanians, only Palestinians.
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