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#1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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An end to billionaires.
Robert Reich argues that the creation and concentration of vast wealth is the result of specific tax and legal policies that could and should be revised.
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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Most Americans are struggling to make ends meet?
I'd like to know his definitions of "most", "struggling", and "make ends meet". Probably "Americans", too. |
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#3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,543
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Let's throw in "staggering" for good measure as well.
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Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
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#4 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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#5 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,389
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Wealth tax would solve this.
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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That's pretty much indisputable.
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#8 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#10 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,405
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If I might propose two premises:
- Everyone having the smae mount of money it not desirable in a capitalist system - one person having all the money is not deisrable in any system Then at what point, if we accept the above, is it appropriate to take action? Only at the point when the last penny goes to McDuck, or if before then, at what point before then? Edit: People are really bad at big numbers. (Personally, I'm not sure I can really conceptualise much beyond a hundred or maybe a thousand), therefore I think it's apt for me to quote this to enable us all to conceptualise how much money billionaires have) "I like to use the analogy of a staircase, with each step on the staircase representing $100,000 of net worth. That’s several years of working wages saved up for tens of millions of Americans: HALF of people in the united states are on the base or the very 1st step. Almost 200 million people who can’t even get one step up in this system. Those households at the 80th percentile, richer than 4/5 Americans, are on the 5th step. That’s about five seconds of walking to get up there. Those with more money than 90% of fellow Americans, millionaires who we consider our upper-middle class professional class and live more than comfortably, are on the 11th step. A few more seconds of walking up from that previous middle-class step. Most Americans won’t even come close to accumulating this much over an entire lifetime of working. A billionaire is ten thousand steps up the staircase. That’s enough to walk up five Empire State buildings. That’s almost three hours of walking non-stop. You think they care about the petty squabbles of anyone on those first few steps or so? From these heights they couldn’t tell the difference even if they wanted to. And yet those who’ve maybe ascended or were born on the first few dozen steps think they identify with this group as a class. And Jeff Bezos? He’s so high up it only makes sense to describe his staircase in distance. His stairs take him up 133 miles. That’s more than halfway to the space station. That’s more than 24 consecutive Mt. Everest’s stacked on top of each other. It would take walking, non-stop, no sleep, over two weeks to ascend that high, each single step worth more than five poverty-level families in America combined." https://writeleft.net/?p=1050 |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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#11 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 26,349
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#12 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,369
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Evidence suggests otherwise. When they've been tried they've generally been ineffective at producing revenue or equalizing wealth.
Noted right wing schills at NPR https://www.npr.org/2019/03/01/69926...work-in-europe
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#13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,076
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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#14 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,288
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It has been true since Roman times.
A rich and powerful landlord can spend a little bit of money to produce an assay report that says his land is nearly worthless. Slaves, what slaves? No, these are tenant farmers I rent out to since I cannot develop the land to any useful purpose of my own, go ahead and feel free to ask them yourself. Brickworks, what brickworks? Oh, that's been abandoned for years, I've been meaning to write it off as a loss... |
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#16 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,369
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#17 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,730
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,859
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If you have a product to sell such as but by no means limited to oil or whatever it is you have to offer and if enough people buy it and the money tallies up to a billion dollars or more then you have the right to earn that much money as long as the product you sell is legal and doesn't harm society in any way.
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If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
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#19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,965
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I have a problem with idea that making billions of dollars is somehow a crime in and of itself. I think HOW you made a Billion matters.
I just don't think wealth is and of itself evil, which for some on the left is pretty much an article of faith. I think no one should live in poverty, but don't want to limit someone's success either I sort of think everybody should be guaranteed the basics, but for the luxuries you are on your own. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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Nobody says it's a crime. But concentration of wealth is the result of laws and social policies that are not cast in stone, and in fact have changed substantially in recent decades. The question is whether it's good for the society for one person or family to hold vast wealth and all the political power associated with it. Would Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates have played more golf if their income and capital gains taxes had been higher? Should the Kochs be able to spend hundreds of millions of dollars opposing environmental protections? Should any one company like Google, Facebook or Amazon be able to dominate their market sectors? None of this is the result of some inevitable process of nature.
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#21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,162
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Is a wealth tax constitutional? Keep in mind that they had to pass a constitutional amendment (16th) to get the income tax. The text of that amendment is plain:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." Incomes, not wealth. The apportionment bit is important, because the constitution requires "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken." So for example, if New York has, say twice the population of New Jersey, New York would pay twice as much of any tax. Obviously this is unworkable with an income tax or a wealth tax. |
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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What does a company being able to dominate its market sector have to do with anything?
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#23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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There's been extensive debate on both sides. I suspect getting it through Congress and then affirmed by the courts would be unlikely. But it's a way for Warren and Sanders to talk about the concentration of wealth in concrete ways: "Here's what we could raise for everyone's education and health care if we collected just two percent from the richest people in America." Some of the same goals could be achieved by higher income, capital gains and inheritance taxes, and maybe by a new VAT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/u...ealth-tax.html |
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#24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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#25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#26 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,983
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Ya, more money is always the answer, and sure, it will all come from the rich, I totally believe that ![]() Dream on. California has some of the highest taxes and we are first in the nation for poverty and homelessness. Just because you give more money away doesn't mean any problems will be solved. I'm living that failed dream. We have I don't know how many gigantic companies and CEOs that call this state their home (Silicon Valley), yet we can't afford to clean up the streets, fix our roads (even with the new BS tax for it), provide clean water or provide our kids with a decent education (almost last in the nation). People claim Cali can secede and the rest of the nation would be worse off for it. Think again. California may claim to be rich and in the black (it isn't) but the people are not. The liberals own this state. Mayors, legislators, almost all Democrats. The rich thrive here, the many many poor do not, just like a lot of other places. There is nothing special going on here, but we pay a hell of a lot more for it. So....no I'm not ready to give even more of my money to politicians so they can blow it all on themselves and their pals. Been there done that. It sucks. This fantasy about ending billionaires - who is going to do that? I live in liberal California and there is no shortage of billionaires here! Doesn't seem to be what they really want. But go ahead and blow more smoke up my ass while I'm paying $3.99 a gallon for gasoline today. |
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Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures. |
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,965
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Is Amazon a Monopoly? Last time I looked there were plenty of other on line stores.
To me "restraint of trade" is the big issue. If a company has market dominance because it offers a better product or better service, so be it,just so long as it does not use crappy and illegal tactics to maintain that dominance. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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Isn't there also a surprising disparity between the amount the US spends on primary education, and the rank of US primary education globally?
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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I mean, I'm open to the idea that we need to raise more funds for the social safety net, but it has to be a more detailed idea than, "we need money, you have money, we're taking your money".
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#30 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,909
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Such an easy question, with an equally easy answer: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfri.../#5f40f3e84f10
I'd say having no financial backstop, especially in a country where sick leave isn't mandatory, constitutes "struggling to make ends meet", while 78% would meet anyone's definition of "most". |
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,546
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As I recall, taking all that money frm all those billionaires would give a one time payment of umm $270 to each of us poor folks.
But yeah, I'd rather a wealth/property tax over the income tax. Because those rich bastards take in sooo much money but some how none of it is "taxable income". |
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Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept. |
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#33 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,730
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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If the elected legislators are abusing the people's money, that's a different issue. But as this non-Californian understands it, two big problems in California are prop 13, which means that similar properties are taxed at wildly disparate rates depending on how long the owners have lived there; and tough restrictions on new construction, which means that Google engineers earning six-figure salaries are living in parked RVs because they can't afford multi-million-dollar cottages. Another is that at least some of the wealthiest Californians -- that is, people who mostly live in California -- are able to use complex strategies to avoid high California taxes.
But all of that is really separate from the moral, political, legal and ethical question of how much wealth -- and the related power -- any one person should be able to accumulate and hold in a society that aspires to democracy and equality. |
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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#36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,162
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#37 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
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"People would not abide by the law." is never a valid reason to not have any particular law. IOW, if they were able to avoid the law by being a "tax refugee" then the law was not very strict. That would be an issue with enforcement, not with whether or not the law was a good idea. Durrr.... rember when we had that "don't rape" law and yet womens still got raped all the time?? |
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#38 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
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Citizens that have more money can afford to pay more in taxes.
It's as simple as that. |
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#39 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,730
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__________________
"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,371
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Actually it really is. The amount of money someone needs to pay for basic needs is finite. You can debate what's a "need," but at some point, after they are living as comfortably and securely as anybody can, the rich are not spending money on any "needs." They are investing their money to make more money. They can afford to pay more of that in taxes.
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